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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

It really doesn't matter

October 12 2010, 4:54 PM 

Sonny,
They do what they want here. If Donnie doesn't like what you say, then he edits out what he doesn't like.

Sonny, the following statement, from Bill Crump, pretty much sums up this whole site....
"No real, full name--no credibility whatsoever."

And after that statement he puts a smily face. Like a kid saying 'nana nana boo boo,' and sticking out his tongue.

Hey Bill, is it 'smiley,' or 'smily'? Should it be " marks or ' marks?

Basically....men behaving like children.

 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.141.177.53

Change agents and their changes cause division: mark them

October 12 2010, 5:47 PM 

The entire website is dedicated to Roman 16:17,18 --
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."
Who are these "brethren"?
The change agents.
What New Testament teachings are these agents changing?
Restructuring the church that Christ established; incorporating musical idolatry and performance-driven entertainment into worship; changing women's role in the church; making the Lord's Supper originally designed to commemorate His suffering and death on the cross into a fellowship meal of barbecue pork chops and beverages; confusing a nice welcome to visitors [open fellowship] with what constitutes membership into the body of Christ [fellowship]; changing God's design of baptism toward the remission of sins; etc.; etc.
What are the effects of these changes?
They are wrong based on the Scripture. They are unnecessary. They cause division in the church.
Sorry, but you're mistaking bro. Sublett's exposure of musical idolatry, entertainment and performances and their "side effects" and his identifying the proponents for attacks. Again, "mark them which cause divisions...."


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 170.141.177.53 on Oct 12, 2010 5:50 PM


 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Thank you Brother Cruz.

October 12 2010, 11:32 PM 

(This did not post from this afternoon, so I am resending it. I apologize if it ends up showing twice.)

Brother Cruz,

Thank you for your explanation and positive reply. I agree with the anonymous person who feels this is duplicity, and you guys can answer or not answer their statement, as I have no "beef" with you guys (Crump, Cruz, Sublett, etc.) because I do not know you.

I obviously know Brother John Waddey from his years at Karns Church of Christ before he left the Bible belt for Arizona, and do not mind him posting on here and sharing his religious views, but struggled to remain silent on the "Wall of Shame" one, which is why I decided to do this "Concerned Members" message. And again, I did not plan to give the details that were edited until the accusations came full force that I was just submitting rumors because I am against this sight exposing "change agents".

And again, I do appreciate receiving this answer, as opposed to no answer or a condescending one, and I will continue to contribute occasionally to the civil discussion on this site about doctrinal issues.

-Sonny

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

About that "Wall of Shame" article

October 13 2010, 1:36 AM 

Sonny,

Lest I forget, let me know if you would like the duplicate thread removed: "A Concerned Member Of The Church (Part 2) - 3 Questions."

FYI, John Waddey has posted only once or twice upon my request. He has written numerous articles pertaining to the Change Movement. And I am the one who has posted several of those articles.

So, "The Wall of Shame" must have struck a nerve with you as it listed a number of churches "who have begun to use instrumental music in their worship" What about some of our "mega" churches that have been removed from the "Directory of Churches of Christ" -- how do you feel about that?

Readers may be interested in reviewing a few articles written by bro. Waddey as follows:


 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

I guess it's the dust vs. plank concept

October 13 2010, 10:52 PM 

I do not have a problem with articles / posts on here about IM vs. Acappella. If I had, I would have responded to the many others on this site. My congregation worships acappella.

A difference between me and some who post on this site is that I am not sectarian or judgmental toward those who do not worship acappella.

[. . .]

I guess I'm just encouraging and reminding the teaching / practice to remove the log from your own eye before the speck in your brothers; of not judging without mercy.

I know you were not implying this, but I am not saying that none of these articles [...] contain any truth or have any content worth reading. I would definitely not disagree with all his points.

-Sonny


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Oct 14, 2010 2:04 AM


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.222.186

Re: I guess it's the dust vs. plank concept

October 14 2010, 9:17 AM 

It should be noted that a cappella consists of two, separate, Italian words and is not spelled as "acappella," which implies one word. If a person is going to harp on IM vs. a cappella, he should at least spell the latter word correctly. happy.gif

BTW, the happy.gif is for Dave's benefit.

 
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Tom Brite
(no login)
69.91.18.247

Re: I guess it's the dust vs. plank concept

October 14 2010, 11:29 AM 

Sonny, I have not posted on this site in many months, but I had to make a comment in regards to the points that you have made. You have pointed a light at the elephant standing in the room. Certainly, I believe non-instrumental to be the way to go. But, anyone who lives in Tennessee or has relatives or friends in that state that are "Church of Christ" know the reason that why a certain writer used on this site moved from Tennessee to Nevada. It is not a secret. For this site to use this man as one of the main sources for defense of a non-instrumental position is ... well, indefensible. You are correct in pointing out that we are all sinners, I certainly am. It seems that no matter what sin one may be engaging in (and the position of many conservative "Church of Christ" brothers would be that this sin is ongoing) so long as you agree that the use of instruments is a sin, then you are held up as a "man of faith" whose viewpoint should be adhered to. (Yes, Dr. Crump, I know I ended that sentence with a preposition.)

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

The Same

October 14 2010, 11:35 PM 

Sonny,
Therein lies the problem. I, like you, worship a capella, but do not condemn those that do. These fine gents here want anything that goes against the norm of their traditional worship (exactly 1 hour......2 songs.....prayer....2 songs.....communion......3 to 4 songs......sermon.....invitation song......closing prayer......to be condemned. It is condemned Sonny, by these men, but not backed by Scripture. So if a congregation uses praise teams, sings new songs, claps, or uses instrumental music, then are change agents. What is really noteworthy is that when calling a lot of brethren 'change agents' they fail to understand that Jesus Christ was one of the biggest change agents of all time.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.141.177.53

Even you are allowed to change from 2 songs to 12 songs

October 15 2010, 4:33 PM 

Dave,

Your example is not an issue. 24 songs are just fine. Clapping is fine if you don't scare the living daylights out of a living 102-year old saint. I don't think the Lord thinks highly of Praise Team performances. Congregational singing and praise performances don't mix.

So, according to you, Christ changed from ____, ____, ____, etc., to _____, _____, _____, etc.

But I can tell what the change agents' agenda for change are [I think I've already listed some of them]:

  • Restructuring the church that Christ established;
  • Incorporating musical idolatry and performance-driven entertainment into worship;
  • Changing women's role in the church;
  • Making the Lord's Supper originally designed to commemorate His suffering and death on the cross into a fellowship meal of barbecue pork chops and beverages [some congregations are already doing this];
  • Confusing a nice welcome to visitors [as an open fellowship with those outside the body of Christ] with what constitutes membership into the body of Christ [fellowship];
  • Changing God's design of baptism toward the remission of sins;
  • Acquiring modern-day Pentecostal/Charismatic tendencies;
  • Overemphasizing God's grace to the point of abusing and misusing it;
  • Discouraging Christians from doing good works as a result of God's abundant grace;
  • Rewriting the history of the Restoration Movement;
  • etc.; etc.
If you think it's only about the difference in using musical devices in the assembly or not, that would be ignorance on your part.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.142.77

Re: A confession

October 19 2010, 6:44 PM 

Sonny wrote: "I wanted to give you men time to draw your conclusions and make your typical bullying remarks..."

I guess some folks regard anyone who speaks the plain, hard truth as being a "bully." Such is life.

 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.141.177.53

Man's nature to gossip and accuse another of sin

October 15 2010, 4:00 PM 

Tom,

This whole scenario reminds me of the narrative in John 8 concerning a woman brought to Jesus by the scribes and Pharisees, caught "in the very act" of sin. Jesus said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

You and Sonny are indulging in a malicious gossip. I do not know how to say it gently, so I am going to let the Scripture speak it for me:

James 3:[5] Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! [6] And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. [8] But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Whether or not your accusation is true, it is gossip. It cannot be justified by simply saying that "we are all sinners, I certainly am." Furthermore, for you to say that "it is not a secret" seems to suggest that the gossip is widespread. Have you done a survey? Have you been following the "story" that "this sin is ongoing" or that it is a "history" of sin? Have you actually witnessed the act(s) of sin? This whole matter is sad and unfortunate. I had never heard of it until you and Sonny started the gossip.

So, my admonition to you as a fellow brother in Christ is to stop this gossip, accusation and condemnation. Let God do the condemnation, instead.

Tom, you said:
It seems that no matter what sin one may be engaging in (and the position of many conservative "Church of Christ" brothers would be that this sin is ongoing) so long as you agree that the use of instruments is a sin, then you are held up as a "man of faith" whose viewpoint should be adhered to.
That is your opinion, not of "conservative 'Church of Christ' brothers." Your expression "conservative 'Church of Christ' brothers" pretty much sums up your passion against conservative brethren, publications, beliefs, etc.

The writer/author you have condemned has written numerous articles and books about the Change Agents in the brotherhood, their Movement and their divisive activities. "Instrumental music" is only one of the many issues he has written about. [I believe I have listed a sample list of these articles and books above, as well as of their intent to transform the church that Christ established.]

Remember, Scripture says:
"... The churches of Christ salute you. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.142.188

Re: Man's nature to gossip and accuse another of sin

October 15 2010, 4:24 PM 

Since Donnie has said that Sonny and Tom are engaging in a malicious gossip, I can only hope that any of their future posts, and anyone else's future posts for that matter, that spread any kind of gossip, be deleted.

 
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Tom Brite
(no login)
69.91.18.247

Re: Man's nature to gossip and accuse another of sin

October 15 2010, 9:38 PM 

Dr. Crump, since Donnie appears to be one of the moderators of this site, he is free to delete any post which I, or anyone else makes. That is his choice. It would not surprise me that you would be in favor of silencing any who would disagree with your personal beliefs.

Donnie, I tried to warn you years ago via email of [this]. I have not said another word about it since that time on this or any other site. However, now that it has been raised by another person, it seems timely to again point out the danger [...].

Are you asking me if I personally witnessed the act of [sin]? If so, then the answer is "no." However, if you want to know if the knowledge of the [sin] is widespread across congregations in Tennessee (again by people who did not personally witness the [sin]) then the answer is "yes." I do not believe that one must personally witness the [committing of sin] to have valid knowledge of the [sin].

Finally, it is very easy to attempt to paste labels on people. You are free to throw the "liberal" label on me all you want, but it does not make it valid. Do you align yourself with the people who publish Contending for the Faith magazine? Or how about The Defender, published by the Bellview Church of Christ in Pensacola, Florida? If you do, then, in deed, I would be considered a "liberal" by you and those brethren.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Oct 15, 2010 11:48 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Prolonging the joy of fully "knowing" what is in someone else's heart

October 16 2010, 12:36 AM 

Tom,

It was not my intent to prolong this malicious gossip. Evidently, you missed my point that such serves no good purpose.

Yes, Tom, I remember you posting a few years back something similar in content, and removing a portion of that post.

So, you resent being "labeled" as a "liberal"? I don't think I actually mentioned the word "liberal," did I? OK, maybe, I just think it? But what else can I say considering that I "align" myself with publications such as "Contending for the Faith," etc. After all, the Scripture says that we "should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 1:3).

Sorry, Tom, I'll have to disagree with you concerning the "danger." What I consider dangerous and damaging to the church is what the change agents are doing. I agree with Scripture that we are to "mark them who cause divisions ... and avoid them."

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.146.139.140

Re: Man's nature to gossip and accuse another of sin

October 16 2010, 9:20 AM 

Often when a person claims that some story is "widespread" among a certain group, it really means only that person and perhaps a few select others have embraced that story and wish to perpetuate it. In other words, because a few people choose to believe a story, then they think that everyone within that group knows about it and believes it. The same fallacy is seen with instrumental music in the Church of Christ. Because some people on this board see nothing wrong with having IM in Church of Christ congregations, they think that virtually all Church of Christ congregations favor IM in worship, when that is not at all true. Such people erroneously transfer their own personal preferences and biases onto all members of the Church of Christ.

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Apples and Oranges.......Right???

October 15 2010, 11:59 PM 


Restructuring the way that man worshiped God, ending the use of animal sacrifices once and for all, and needing only the One and Only Lamb of God, offering Himself as the Ultimate sacrifice and establishing His church

Incorporating worship not just on Sunday but including a DAILY WORSHIP from the heart and not worrying about what man wants in the way of worship but what God wants. This being a Jesus that would accept praise teams, singing with instruments, singing without instruments, clapping, etc., as long as the Scripture is being adhered to and God is worshiped faithfully. This being a Jesus allowing God to judge whose heart is right.NOT MAN.

Allowing both men and WOMEN to faithfully worship Him, as shown time and time again in Gods Holy Word

Using the Lords Supper to REMEMBER ME and not using the Lords Supper to be the insipid example of what GOD DIDNT SAY NOT TO by saying that ketchup or cocaine could be used to represent the Lords Cup in place of the true examples of wine and the fruit of the vine.

Jesus did not extend the hand of fellowship based on what man constitutes membership into the body of Christ. He did so solely on how man loved Him and how man loved his neighbor. He gave membership to the Kingdom based on man following God instead of what man wanted.

Jesus showed how important baptism was by being baptized Himself, but He wanted ALL men to know that it was HE, HIS BLOOD, and HIS WORDS that savednot water.
Jesus didnt allow other men to add to His Word by adding sins which werent in the Word, including instrumental music.

Jesus was a man of emotion and had great zeal for His Fathers love and work. Jesus believed that if you couldnt show emotion for the True Love of this world, then you shouldnt follow Him. You didnt have to worry about putting on your best clothes for Him or putting on a masquerade. He cared only for how the heart was, not how clean or pressed another mans clothes were.

Jesus didnt want anyone to miss His and God's Grace to the point of thinking that you could actually do enough to pay for the debt of Love that Jesus gave for us all. He wanted men to do His bidding because of ONLY ONE attributeLOVE!

Jesus discouraged others for boasting in any works of man, including a restoration movement that would take away from His Sacrifice of Love for all.



    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 67.142.130.41 on Oct 16, 2010 12:08 AM


 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Editing???

October 20 2010, 5:15 PM 

I saw where Ken Was doing the EDITING? Is that what you call it now? EDITING??? Fancy name for either deleting or changing one's message.....either way I wouldn't expect anything less from this site.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.219.203

Re: Editing???

October 20 2010, 9:57 PM 

Well, what does Dave expect from an edited message--that it be published word for word as he originally wrote it? An edited message has been reworded, augmented, or had parts deleted so that it is fit for publication; in this case, fit for Christian consumption. Of course, if Dave doesn't like the fact that Ken may edit some of Dave's posts, Dave does have the choice to post nothing at all. It's his choice. happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.41

ACappella is to hide the stink of a cappella!

October 15 2010, 11:40 PM 

When a pope returned from France he brought a "Musical Worship Team" to replace the falsetto priestlings.
They were A Castrados: they sang Organum or "after the pipe organ." The pope was so enamoured that they performed in the Sistine Chapel. But Chapel is named after CAPER: a general's goat skin chapel.

Christ denies that animal sacrifices were commanded and that eleminates the use of the Warrior Levite musicians making NOISE only during the burning of the GOATS. The goats began to be sacrificed to Azazel (the devil) after the Nadab and Abihu folly of entering into a holy place. Rick Atchley uses 2 Chronicles 29 where the Warrior's instruments sounded only during the burning of the GOATS: because God had turned them over to worship the starry host, and we know some of the names, the sacrificial system worshipped the Devil when they made instrumental noises. They were worshipping Dionysus or Bacchus, the new wineskin god. Both the "worship team" and instruments claim to "lead you into the presence of God" if you watch and listen and "do what we do." In fact, they are standing in the holy place of church architecture and they are claiming to be God in Christ who thought He was the only mediator with God.

Lying Wonders includes all of the performing arts which claim that they are led by God or are doing holy things.

So, stand clear of anyone who wants to do ACappella as as steal word from the Goat Singers.

[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]

ACappella marks ONLY the musical worship teams and is not related to congregational singing. The PERSONA mark is universal and it isn't pretty but it is prophetic.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.23

Whut ubout Davud's hurp-eh?

October 16 2010, 8:37 PM 

Does this mean that I can no longer use David as my patternism for worship with instruments and watching girls?

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

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10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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