Re: Whut ubout Davud's hurp-eh?
|October 18 2010, 2:54 PM |
With respect, I disagree.
You could use this argument for any matters of "patternism" or "authority" other than Jesus, since he did not sin.
As David is a negative spiritual example in some ways, so is Moses, Paul, Peter, the Laodicean church, Galatian church, the Corinthian church, etc.
In spite of their negative examples, Paul calls the church in Corinth indeed, "the church" (1 Corinthians 1:2) and that God will be faithful to them and present them blameless ( 1 Cor. 1:8-9). Here is a church with unloving attitudes, pride, division, sexual sin, etc., and yet the grace of God and peace of God are available to them (1 Cor. 1:3).
[Do you] equate instrumental worship with [watching girls or worse]?
In a nutshell, I do not believe your statement is consistent interpretating of Scripture.
David did more than look... [...].
So, to be consistent, would you disregard the leadership and teachings of an elder or minister today if they committed murder, sexual sin(s), language sin(s), attitude sin(s), etc.?
My point in this original thread/post is that we should not be so quick to not show mercy to others, when we need mercy ourselves.
If the Corinthian church was called into the fellowship of Christ (1 Cor. 1:9), with all of their misunderstandings of worship, and unloving and braggadocious attititudes toward others, then perhaps churches listed AND NOT LISTED under "wall of shame" are together the body of Christ? Every church and every christian needs grace, as we seek to obey and honor Christ in our lives and worship.
Your brother in Christ,
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 188.8.131.52 on Oct 18, 2010 3:55 PM|
|October 18 2010, 5:09 PM |
Brother Sublett and Readers,
I did not ask Brother Sublett a question where it reads, "[Do you] equate instrumental music with [watching girls or worse]?".
I made a statement.
I did put at the end of the statement in parenthesis, (unless I misunderstood?), but this should not have been changed to a direct question.
I was merely acknowledging that I may have misunderstood a portion of Brother Sublett's position.
This hyper-paranoid editing is about to lead me to questioning this site's position and potential compromises on Scriptural matters.
A Statement -- Not a Question
|October 18 2010, 6:31 PM |
Let's put it back as a statement, still edited, though:
"I find it interesting that you equate instrumental worship with [...] (unless I misunderstood you?)."Problem, my brother, is that your mindset is still that of resorting to the malicious gossip -- unfounded or not -- regardless of your noted kinder and gentler approach.
This site hardly edits anyone's post unless it contains expletives or is simply not conducive to "Christian" reading.
This thread has been an exception. No one has been immune to editing, including a number of my own posts.
We do not encourage any personal attacks against anyone -- change agents or not.
We discuss doctrinal issues and matters that have caused division and severe damage to the church that Christ established, especially those that the change agents are imposing upon congregations that they infiltrate.
We also discuss doctrinal issues that we differ with our denominational neighbors for our learning.
In both instances, posts are not likely to be edited.
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Oct 18, 2010 6:32 PM|
Thus, my point.
|October 18 2010, 8:01 PM |
I did not know my statements were attacking anyone specifically in my reply to Brother Sublett, anymore than his post was attacking anyone specifically. We were both addressing the issues of both worship and sin, not of a specific person other than David in Scripture.
Brother Sublett was discussing David and playing the harp and watching girls, which is what I was responding to, along with his interpretive method(s).
"Wall of Shame" Marks and Identifies
|October 19 2010, 5:26 PM |
Sonny Elliot states:
If the Corinthian church was called into the fellowship of Christ (1 Cor. 1:9), with all of their misunderstandings of worship, and unloving and braggadocious attititudes toward others, then perhaps churches listed AND NOT LISTED under "wall of shame" are together the body of Christ? Every church and every christian needs grace, as we seek to obey and honor Christ in our lives and worship.RESPONSE: It is likely that congregations or churches listed under "Wall of Shame" have become instrumental music lovers, not necessarily because of the need or desire of the membership of a congregation as a whole, but because of the action taken or decision made by its own leaders -- "the shepherds." Whatever the reason or reasons and excuses by the leadership may be for implementing the mechanical operation of inanimate musical devices in the assembly of living saints, they are beyond the scope of my brief comments at the moment. [We certainly should be able to discuss the human reasoning behind the scheme that it "enhances" worship ... at a later time.]
For now, I just would like to stress the truth:
Marking "them" is not wrong or bad or sinful. The Scripture recommends it; in fact, Scripture commands it.
- That there is certainly division in the leadership itself it making the decision. But one side of the aisle, of course, has to win in order to effect the unwanted implementation. [This was especially true in Madison's case in which the eldership was divided over the decision of whether or not to employ the "professional" services of The ["Baptist"] CHOIR in the church of Christ -- The PRAISE TEAM. One side of the division had to win and the other elders would leave or resign and the congregation would split.]
- That this has to be the work of the change agents operating in the brotherhood, infiltrating and intruding upon the affairs of congregations they seek to devour. Keep in mind that the activities and efforts of change agents can be equated to activities and efforts of the progressives and liberals in the political arena (just look around us and see for yourselves).
- That change agents, perhaps unbeknownst to themselves [while they think and believe that they're doing the citizens of the kingdom a favor], have their own agenda and whose schemes are destructive to the church and its New Testament identity and are unnecessarily causing division in the body of Christ.
- That churches of Christ simply do not use instrumental music in their assemblies and are, therefore, not to be blamed for division. After all, they are not the intruders; rather, they're the ones victimized.
- That those who are part of the divided eldership that favors loving instrumental music, with those certain members who desire to go along, should start their own congregation from scratch to avoid a "divided" kingdom from happening.
- That it is God's will to "mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them" (Rom. 16:17).
- That based on Scripture, the Directory of Churches of Christ" should identify and exclude those who would rather be affiliated with the Christian Church or the Community Church.
- That based on Scripture, the article "Wall of Shame" should identify and list those who would rather be affiliated with the Christian Church or the Community Church.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Re: "Wall of Shame" Marks and Identifies
|October 19 2010, 6:08 PM |
Sonny wrote: "If the Corinthian church was called into the fellowship of Christ (1 Cor. 1:9), with all of their misunderstandings of worship, and unloving and braggadocious attititudes toward others, then perhaps churches listed AND NOT LISTED under 'wall of shame' are together the body of Christ?"
Wasn't Paul's letter to the Corinthian church written to straighten them out regarding their "misunderstandings of worship" and other errors? A church that promotes error falls out of the body of Christ, but if that church returns to the right path of the New Testament, it is restored to the body of Christ. However, a church that promotes error and refuses to return to the right path will remain outside the body of Christ. Can churches still receive grace if they deliberately promote that which the New Testament does not teach? I think not.
Diversity but no unity in Corinth: Part One
|October 19 2010, 7:28 PM |
The heresies in Corinth specificially point to people who invade other people's property with the intention of taking it for themselves. "Choosing for oneself" means choosing YOUR property for their own use.
The hireling-changelings claim to be "moles" intending to "infiltrate and divert your church to turn it into a theater for holy entertainment." This is the Purpose Driven Cult using entertainment and silencing the preaching and teaching. Therefore, the Doctors of the Law--Shelly etal--are just out of their skins when they think that Corinth is an example of Unity in Diversity. In fact Corinth never changed and never repented and was always fighting over control.
When Paul speaks of the Super-Apostles he is speaking of those who had INFILTRATED and demanded a wage. When they said Paul did not accept money they responded that Paul wasn't WORTH a salary:
The old PATTERNISM is repeating before our eyes and ears where men have stooped to picking the pockets of widows and then telling them to "get over it or get out."
Your assemblies do more harm than good:
1Cor. 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not,
..... that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
1Cor. 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church,
.....I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Cor. 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you,
.....that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
1Cor. 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place,
.....this is not to eat the Lords supper.
Hairesis A. taking, especially of a town, Hdt.4.1, etc.; h basileos hai. the taking by the king, Id.9.3; elpizn takhistn -sin esesthai Th. 2.75; hai. dunames acquisition of power
Especially a religious party or sect, of the Essenes, J.BJ2.8.1; the Sadducees and Pharisees, Act.Ap.5.17, 15.5, 26.5; the Christians, ib.24.5,14, 28.22, generally, faction, party, App.BC5.2.
Heredotus Hdt. 4.1 After taking Babylon, Darius himself marched against the Scythians. For since Asia was bursting with men and vast revenues were coming in, Darius desired to punish the Scythians for the wrong they had begun when they invaded Media first and defeated those who opposed them in battle.
Next Part: now that you have TAKEN A CHURCH CAPTIVE how do you control the captives to make sure that THEY do not STEAL BACK their own propert.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Oct 19, 2010 7:54 PM|
His Grace Reaches Me
|October 21 2010, 9:31 PM |
Yes, after Paul expresses thanks to God for the Corinthian church, he does discuss division and several lifestyle and worship issues for which they need to grow and mature in Christ.
Though I have still not been convinced by the authority of Scripture, that Scripture instructs or specifies instrumental worship of God as sin, I am convinced by Scripture that every congregation, instrumental and acappella, needs the grace of God as did the Corinthian church, as they learn and grow in Christ.
I realize there is a slight chance some on this site will disagree that instrumental churches have available grace.
Dr. Crump, while we will likely always disagree on these matters, you were being witty and cyber-friendly in your earlier statement about the bully remark, that "such is life". A very humorous reply that made me chuckle. We now have a new metaphor for conceptualizing our existence. Life ... is a mean bully.
Edit for readablilty
|October 20 2010, 10:37 PM |
I saw a dozen paragraphs all lumped together in bright red: all I did was to put space in and change the color to black.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Re: Edit for readablilty
|October 20 2010, 11:08 PM |
So the fact that Ken "edited" Dave's post by making it more readable (without changing any text) still upset Dave. Did Dave even bother to check to see that none of his text had been changed? It seems that Dave was just itching to accuse Ken of something--anything.
A man Can Only Change When He Wants to Change
|October 21 2010, 12:37 PM |
I believe that with Jesus Christ there is always hope. You, however, show me that a man has to want to change to be conform to His Will. You have to get away from YOU and let Jesus take over your heart for that to happen. Every time I hear you respond I keep hoping.....and hoping.....and I pray.....
7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.
Also remember William that if you get away from being self-centered, and take on the Ways of our Lord, anything is possible.
Matthew 19:26 (New King James Version)
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
The NKJV.......demonic like the NIV???
Re: A man Can Only Change When He Wants to Change
|October 21 2010, 6:07 PM |
Great message of hope and change. Does it apply to certain Christians only? Or, does it also apply to you or me and others?
... demonic like the NIV? Perhaps, nothing compares to the New International perVersion. We all should be careful about translations that have doctrinal perversion tendencies and "idiosyncrasies." The translation of a text pertaining to God's grace or mercy may be similar among various translations. But a text pertaining to what one must do to be saved may vary or may be distorted. This is critical in terms of man's redemption from sins, his conversion to become a member of God's church, and his faithfulness in order to receive the PROMISE of everlasting life in heaven.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Talk about "Change"
|October 21 2010, 6:10 PM |
I gather from Dave's change of subject that he didn't bother to check to see if Ken changed any of the text in Dave's post that Ken edited. I maintain that Dave was just itching to accuse Ken of something--anything. Beware of "Christians" who imply that they are saints, yet who persistently slam and berate those with whom they disagree; then when those "Christians" are shown to be hypocrites, they vow to "pray" for those who have exposed them as hypocrites. Their "prayers" are "crocodile prayers."
|October 21 2010, 8:59 PM |
The question about NKJV being demonic like the NIV was sarcastic.....you do know that, right?
You also KNOW that the NIV is no more demonic than the KJV.......it's already been proven.
Don't go into WHY you believe that the NIV is wrong.
It's a battle you have already lost time and time again Donnie.
I prefer the New KJV.....you prefer the KJV......others prefer the NIV.....and YES.....the NIV is a good translation of our Lord's Words.
Oh, and tell William that Ken also DELETED a bit of my message. He may not have knew what he was doing (that could explain a lot his overall interpretations), but he still did it just the same.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
|October 21 2010, 10:05 PM |
Dave wrote of Ken: "He may not have knew [sic] what he was doing..."
I believe the correct rendering of the English is: "He may not have KNOWN what he was doing..." Poor grammar certainly doesn't strengthen a dismal argument.
Either way, it's just another one of Dave's typical insults against Ken. I'm beginning to think that Dave is unable to refrain from bashing anyone with whom he disagrees. That's not a good sign at all.
All Comes Out in the Wash
|October 21 2010, 11:19 PM |
Bashing, you say William? Reviling? Slander? One word sentences William.....got to love it. Now about this bashing.....is that like you telling someone that they are full of H.A.A.H. (hot air and halitosis)? Your slander is what got you banned multiple times at Faithsite. Remember???
Remember William....what goes around comes around.
Always have.....always will.
Thanks for the grammar check.....well-worded. WAIT a second.....that's not a word either.......is it William?
Well I guess it is if you have an unabridged dictionary.....and like making up words.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Re: All Comes Out in the Wash
|October 22 2010, 12:19 AM |
Well, I guess Dave needs a little "breathing space" to work off his tantrum.
|October 22 2010, 12:21 AM |
You may have overlooked my question [inadvertently?], so I'm restating it:
"Great message of hope and change. Does it apply to certain Christians only? Or, does it also apply to you or me and others?"Now, let me answer your questions:
(1) Yes, I do know that "the question about NKJV being demonic like the NIV was sarcastic."
(2) No, I do not know "that the NIV is no more demonic than the KJV." Just the opposite, in fact. Did you not note that I already mentioned the "New International perVersion" translation? What did that indicate to you?
The NIV can be pretty much accepted by those who are ignorant of more accurate translations out there, by those who do not care about the correct doctrine pertaining to man's part in salvation.
Older versions are more accurate than the NIV and other modern translations when denominational teachings and influences are not a factor to consider. For example, the translation of the KJV took place not long after the Protestant Reformation Movement started in Europe in the 1500s. It is clear that since it was only the Roman Catholic Church and the Reformation, denominationalism was not rampant and its influential teachings prevalent at the time of the KJV translation.
So, how many "scholars" from various denominations comprised the group of translators of the N.I.pV. in the 70s?
"Other findings provide convincing evidence that the hidden agenda of the NIV is to alter Bible doctrine. The NIV has 64,098 or 10% fewer words than the King James Version.... Careful comparison of Scripture verses, such as those found in the Tables, reveals that these omissions are not random, but selective." [Mollenkott]
Dave, "did you know that there is only one verse in the whole Bible that tells us we need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ before we are baptized? That verse is Acts 8:37. Why is it missing from the text in the NIV? (Look for yourself).
"Or what about Colossians 1:14, where it says "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins." Why has "through his blood" been removed from the NIV? Do you really believe that you can be saved without the shed blood of Jesus Christ? "
Just a sample of important doctrinal differences and omissions from the New International perVersion.
Another Issue For "Concern"
|October 22 2010, 12:45 AM |
Instead of an honest discussion or debate about the KJV and NIV and their differences, and the positives and negatives / accuracies and inaccuracies of BOTH translations, I think this site should simply find out every congregation that now uses the NIV and add them to the "Wall Of Shame".
Re: Another Issue For "Concern"
|October 22 2010, 1:24 AM |
That's an excellent point. But we should consider the difference between:
(1) practicing what is taught [as in instrumental music]
------------------------- versus ---------------------
(2) applying what is read [as in the NIV].
Thanks to the knowledge of the truth learned by members from reading and studying unaltered translations of the Bible and to the ability to discern the difference between the good and perverted versions.
At least we have identified the leaders of congregations listed in the "Wall of Shame" that practice operation of mechanical music in the assembly. Here's a sample:
There may come a time when teaching that baptism is no longer essential or that baptism is not "unto [toward] the remission of sins" is more than a rarity in churches of Christ, then, there may be a need for a "Wall of Shame--Act II." [It shouldn't be a surprise if certain change agents may already be teaching this.]
- The Richland Hills Church of Christ, North Richland Hills, TX, Rick Atchley, minister
- The Quail Springs Church of Christ, Oklahoma City, OK., Mark Henderson, minister.
- Norway Ave. Church of Christ, Huntington, WV, Jeff Garrett, minister.
- Oak Hills Church (of Christ), San Antonio, TX, Max Lucado, minister.
- The Farmers Branch Church of Christ, Dallas, TX, Chris Seidman, minister
- The First Colony Church of Christ, Sugarland, TX, Ronnie Norman, minister
- etc., etc.
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Oct 22, 2010 10:43 AM|