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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Here's Your Chance

November 4 2010, 6:08 PM 

Here is the answer Dave needs to see:

In "Sweet," Dave wrote, "If you don't mind, though, I will NOT use the crocodile prayers."

Since I had earlier said that crocodile prayers are false and meaningless and since Dave said that he would NOT use crocodile prayers, then Dave evidently realized the truth that crocodile prayers are indeed false and meaningless. Surely Dave would not want to continue to engage in an act that makes a mockery of praying as crocodile prayers do.

Clear enough?

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No Proof!!!

November 5 2010, 12:17 AM 

I thought I had seen it all. I figured the best way to keep William Crump's mouth shut is to tell him he HAS to answer my reply.
Well now......wowzers.

William, again, you are digging a hole. You have spoke falsely....any way you put it.
I did not say what you accused me of saying. You said...."I am gratified to know that Dave finally realizes his "prayers" for those with whom he disagrees on this board have been crocodile prayers--false and meaningless."

I didn't say it.
Your explanation of "....Dave evidently realized the truth that crocodile prayers are indeed false and meaningless" still doesn't defend your lie about what I said. Nothing I said in any posts would lend anyone to believe what you accused me of. Regardless of you blowing smoke by trying to pull the subject away from what you accused me of, you still spoke a lie William. You simply could not prove what you accused me of.
Don't worry William.
You did the same at Faithsite.....and you were banned because of such behavior.
You have been proven to do the same here. People are hard to change, especially at your age.
The part that you have no need to worry about. You can make all tho false accusations that you want here, and no one will ban you.
No need to stress out.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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November 5 2010, 2:07 AM 

Funny, I would have thought that Dave's saying "I will NOT use the crocodile prayers" meant he would not post crocodile prayers any more. Now Dave spins 180 degrees with a denial, so we must conclude that Dave WILL keep posting crocodile prayers after all. I should have known! That's too bad, because people who resort to crocodile prayers make a mockery of praying.

And from seeing yet another of Dave's tantrums, I wonder if he has found a good anger management course yet.

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(Login Ken.Sublett)

I know What Did Jesus Do!

November 3 2010, 11:54 PM 

I already know how Jesus will treat my teachings: He made it dogmatically certain.

When the "musical minstrels" wanted to help Jesus with the "dead' girl, he CAST THEM OUT with a word meaning LIKE DUNG. Not surprising since in Isaiah he promised to wash the DUNG out of Jerusalem.

In Athens the same official controlled the flute-girls (prostitutes) and the dung heap.

Jesus marked the MEN of Jerusalem as CHILDREN who piped hoping to get others to sing (lament) and dance. As they were initiated into New Wineskin worship they had to BOW down and the initiation really hurt. In Romans 14 they had been somewhat regulated but NOT permitted to speak in the church.

In Revelation 18 John calls the sorcerers: since they will be cast into the lake of fire (re Isaiah 3) there will be no musicators in the spirit world.

In Isaiah 3 we understand that the women and children are really the

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Fred Whaley
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Instruments and Group Whoop

January 14 2011, 5:24 PM 

Mr. Sublett is it scriptural to have a harp or trumpet in a church building or in heaven as long as it is not played? --Revelation 5:8 and 8:6

Dr. Crump do you think it is scriptural to sing When We All Get To Heaven? "When we all get to heaven, what a day of rejoicing that will be. When we all see Jesus, we'll sing AND SHOUT the victory."

Fred Whaley

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Instruments and Group Whoop

January 14 2011, 10:04 PM 

Since Fred mentions harps and trumpets in Revelation (which is a highly symbolic book), does Fred actually think that there will be literal, physical, musical instruments in heaven, when everything else there will be spiritual?

I find it difficult to equate the mad, disorderly group whoop of charismatic churches today (yelling, hollering, gyrating as in secular rock concerts, histrionics, hysteria, mania) with the majestic praise that God will receive in heaven from all the saved.

Christ inspired Paul to write the following: "Let all things be done decently and in order" (1 Cor. 14:40 KJV). Does Fred think that, once we get to heaven, all restraints will end and we can run amuck with no self-control and with everyone shrieking, whooping, and behaving like wild animals? Think again, for Christ also inspired Paul to write: "For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints" (1 Cor. 14:33 KJV). Therefore, there will be praise in heaven, but it will be Godly and orderly, not according to the foolishness of man's preferences.

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Headline: Whaley and Crump both win with Jesus Christ!

January 14 2011, 11:18 PM 

I do not know how gentle a potential reply from Brother Fred may be, but I must interject that this is a positive step of civil dialogue from Brother Whaley and Brother Crump in this exchange of ideas.

Dr. Crump, I applaud you for your change in tone and rhetoric. Brother Fred, ditto.

While I agree with the verses from Brother Fred in Revelation, I agree with Dr. Crump that Revelation is symbolic. However, when harps are mentioned for spiritual worship in Psalm 150 they are not. (So 2 points for Whaley and 2 points for Crump.)

While I agree with the verses from Dr. Crump in Corinthians, and agree that some charismatic churches go "overboard", I disagree that these verses prevent the display of any emotion. (So -1 for Crump.)

Final Score: Whaley 2 Crump 1 (Fred wins.) happy.gif


Since both are baptized believers with lives devoted to following Jesus Christ, despite some misinterpretations on the matter of worship, BOTH of you brothers are WINNERS and heaven is your reward because God is generous and gracious and merciful. Praise God.


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Dr. Bill Crump
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Keeping Score?

January 15 2011, 9:08 AM 

Sonny's into keeping score? I didn't know that Christianity was some kind of "one-ups-manship" game with the keeping of brownie points and scores. Perhaps it is to today's progressive "Christian."

Those who keep "score" in Christianity evidently have some compulsion to feel superior to their fellow Christians: "I'm more spiritual, more righteous, and more deserving of heaven than you. Oh sure, we'll both get into heaven, no problem, but I'll certainly get in long before YOU ever do, ha ha!"

Score-keeping Christians would do well to remember the parable of the Pharisee and the publican. The Pharisee who felt he had a much higher "score" over the publican was actually the loser, whereas the humble publican turned out to be the victor.

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Fred Whaley
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Headline: God Bestows Revival To Concerned Members Of The Church Of Christ

January 17 2011, 10:34 AM 

I would like to add a news headline Sonny. Ken, Donnie and Doctor all go to Winterfest 2011 with Fred and have revival with other adults teenagers and even grandchildren.

Fred Whaley

"Revive us again. Feel each heart with thy love. May each soul be rekindled with fire from above. Hallelujah thine the glory. Hallelujah amen. Hallelujah thine the glory. Revive us again."

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

No one PLAYS harps in the air over Zion

January 14 2011, 11:35 PM 

While I agree with the verses from Brother Fred in Revelation, I agree with Dr. Crump that Revelation is symbolic. However, when harps are mentioned for spiritual worship in Psalm 150 they are not. (So 2 points for Whaley and 2 points for Crump.)

No one plays DAVID'S harp: the elders and beast SUBMIT to God by falling on their face. They HOLD the harps as in 'Hold the onions."

The WORDS define people who can APPREHEND the voice of God.

David was KING and not a worship leader in # 150 which is NOT a psalm. The halal "praise" word derived from Egypt as the Jews were abandoned to worship the starry host. The halal was to force everyone to turn coward. The Horus message is that he rapes his father to prove dominance. If you Dare to be A David then you will "perform the role of women." The instruments in Revelation are devoted to making war or making homosexual love.

Acts 7 God Turned them over to worship the STARRY HOST.
If that is true then WHAT God did they worship in their abandoned State?
Check with your 6th grade child and they will tell you what the doctors of the law miss every time.

The worship of idols and of the orbs of heaven prevailed in Arabia, Egypt, Judah, Israel and Syria, and, while not excluding the Mysteries and mythology, interfered with monotheism. The country of the Hebrews once passed, with the Assyrians, under the name of Philistia. The Philistians, according to 1 Samuel, xiii. 5, were a powerful people, the Egyptians apparently gave the name Karu to Philistians, and Sabians were in the Siuaite peninsula. The identity of the fundamental theories upon which the Phoenician, Philistian, Hebrew and Egyptian religions were based was recognized by Movers, and is evidenced by the Lion-man (the faces of lion and man conjoined at the back of the head) represented on the vail of the Jewish. Temple, by the Cherubim, by the Lion-man of the Sphinxes and the Seal of lar-Horus3 of the late Dr. Abbot's Egyptian Collection. Then we have the use of linen by the linen-robed priests of both Hebrews and Egyptians.3 The description of the Jewish Tabernacle, while in some respects Arabian, is significant of an advanced stage of religious civilisation, especially in dress and ceremonial.4

The Word of God steers you to the PROPHETS AND APOSTLES. If you want to get in bed with David who thought about getting his god in bed (Psalm 14) then that is the ABSOLUTE persona of religious musicians.

Christ in the prophets says that if you trust in yourself or the Lying Pen of the Scribes instead of Christ in the prophets then you are guilty of blasphemy.

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(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: A Concerned Member Of The Church (Rom. 3:24)

January 15 2011, 1:55 PM 

Mr. Sublett is it scriptural to have a harp or trumpet in a church building or in heaven as long as it is not played? --Revelation 5:8 and 8:6

We learned in bible 101a that ZION is the hill in Jerusalem: so the listeners are on the earth. They heard SOUNDS LIKE up in the AIR. If you read Revelation 14 and history well enough to claim to be a teacher, you will find that all of the SOUNDS are heard in the Bible and in the literature as creating PANIC. Therefore, the SECOND angel to those who are still LIVING was to Preach the Gospel to all nations because the SOUNDS carry the message of attack.

WESLEY 'I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard." (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685)

Acam Clark on Amos

Adam Clark: "I am an old man, and an old minister; and I here declare that I never knew them productive of any good in the worship of God; and have had reason to believe that they were productive of much evil.

"Music, as a science, I esteem and admire: but instruments of music in the house of God I abominate and abhor. This is the abuse of music; and here I register my protest against all such corruptions in the worship of the Author of Christianity. The late venerable and most eminent divine, the Revelation John Wesley, who was a lover of music, and an elegant poet, when asked his opinion of instruments of music being introduced into the chapels of the Methodists said, in his terse and powerful manner,

..... "I have no objection to instruments of music in our chapels,
...... provided they are neither HEARD nor SEEN."?
...... I say the same, though I think the expense of purchase had better be spared.

The word µyfrph happoretim, which we render chant, and the margin quaver, signifies to dance, to skip, &c. (Strong's parat) In the sight of such a text, fiddlers, drummers, waltzers, &c., may well tremble, who perform to excite detestable passions.

Lucifer the sinnging and harp playing prostitute up to modern musicologists and medicine KNOWS that music creates a PANIC impulse which the demons SELL as being a holy spirit person inside of you..

All pagans--including David--thought that a musical instrument WAS an idol or the actual HOME of a god meaning DEMON. If you have instruments to see and musicators to cause disgust you are DEFACTO giiving heed to them and that is the ONLY worship word used by Paul and Peter and the historic church of Christ.

Jesus stood up to READ and then decently and in order SAT DOWN. That would take the eye off him so that the Word (only) could be discussed or explained. Paul told Timothy the evangelist how to conduct "synagogue" which was inclusive and exclusive.

1Tim. 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to (public) reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city
them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Those OF FAITH or OF TRUTH will mark those who deny Christ's right to define INCLUSIVELY and EXCLUSIVELY what is to be taught as demons: John in Revelation 18 said that the self-preachers, singers and instrument players were SORCERERS: they HAD deceived the whole world. There is no one so simple minded in recorded history of the decent who did not know that men "set their lies to deceive the simple minded." Just got an e-mail from a disc jockey who affirmed his witchery power which he had abandoned.

Instruments are IDOLS: they should neither be present, seen nor heard. HOLDING the harps OF God means to APPREHEND the Word of God in the HEART which is the PLACE Paul commanded that we make melody.

When you hear the SOUNDS like all of those things in you and over your head this IS THE MARK of the last TRUMPET SOUNDS which tell you to flee Babylon. Besides, Amos, John in Revelation 18 and all ancient and modern history marks religious musicians as FRUITS. I am not surprised that the almost complete persona of musicians is like the sounds of THUNDER causing the tiny few to preach the Word KNOWING that it will be mocked by all of those God gave no ROLE and no DOLE

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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