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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.146.139.201

Re: Little Help

November 8 2010, 11:55 PM 

It's quite obvious that Dave hasn't enrolled in that anger management course yet.

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: While we debate all of this and divide over it

November 8 2010, 11:24 PM 

1. Where in Scripture does God command or specify congregational singing in the assembly?

2. Where in Scripture does God command or specify how many song/worship leaders in the assembly?

3. Where in Scripture does God command or specify there is even to be a song/worship leader in the assembly?

Readers already see where I am going with this, but I will wait patiently until these questions are answered before making the connection and discussing consistent and inconsistent interpretive methods.

Meanwhile, I would submit that instrumental worship is authorized and taught as acceptable, though perhaps not commanded in the sense that one must worship with them. Like clapping and bowing and fasting and lifting hands are not as critical or as necessary as outer expressions of worship as is what is in the heart.

-Sonny

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.142.101

Re: While we debate all of this and divide over it

November 9 2010, 11:01 AM 

Were we to ask, "Where in Scripture does God command or specify that instrumental music is acceptable in worship?" Sonny would likely cite Psalm 150 or 2 Chron. 29. Sonny would then conclude, "I would submit that instrumental worship is authorized and taught as acceptable..." In other words, Sonny's alleged "authorization" for instrumental Christian worship comes from the Old Testament, the religious rituals of which are not applicable to Christian worship today (Col. 2:14).

Were we to be a bit more specific and ask, "Where in the New Testament does God command or specify that instrumental music is acceptable in Christian worship on earth?" Sonny would be at a loss to provide book, chapter, and verse. Yet Sonny would likely say, "That doesn't matter, because the Old Testament, the Mosaic Law, authorizes it, so there!" Suffice it to say that Sonny's "authorization" for instrumental Christian worship does NOT come from the New Testament.

Were we to ask Dave the second question, he would likely say something to the effect of, "Instrumental worship is acceptable, because God does not condemn it in the New Testament; further, anything that God does not explicitly condemn by name is acceptable." Dave would never admit it, but that's exactly the same as saying, "God didn't say not to." Dave would deny that, blue blazes, up and down. Blue...Blazes. Yet Dave still hasn't accepted the fact that the premise of "God didn't say not to" is not found anywhere in the New Testament. (BTW, Dave may want to prevent a tantrum by writing 500 times, "God didn't say not to.") happy.gif

So in summary, Sonny implies that Christians can extract whatever pleases them from the Old Testament rituals and apply them to Christian worship (which is a shallow, pick-and-choose religion), while Dave as much as resorts to "God didn't say not to."

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

No: It is that change agents cause division first; else, there wouldn't be any debate

November 9 2010, 3:49 AM 

1. Let's briefly dissect the passages that Christ's followers [that includes you and me, Sonny] are familiar with -- Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19. Primary objective is for God's followers to "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly." How is this accomplished? Key tasks involve: teaching and admonishing. Medium of instruction: speaking in ... songs or singing.

Unless it's a congregation of one follower [all alone at home or traveling], the expressions:
(a) Speaking to YOURSELVES in ... songs;
(b) Teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER in ... songs;
(c) Singing with grace in YOUR HEARTS to the Lord --
... strongly suggest the congregants being present or in the assembly.

2. [and]

3. The man-designated office of "Worship Leader" is not on this list that Christ gave in Ephesians 4:11-12:
(1) for the perfecting of the saints;
(2) for the work of the ministry;
(3) for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(a) Apostles
(b) Prophets
(c) Evangelists
(d) Pastors-Teachers [a.k.a. Elders]
There is no "Worship Leader" that stands between God and the believers.

Jehoiada was the leader of the Aaronites (I Chron. 12:27). David consulted with the captains and leaders (I Chron. 13:1). There were leaders and captains in the camp of the king of Assyria (II Chron. 32:21). Moses was a leader. But there was/is NO "Worship Leader" in God's assembly.

It is a strange emphasis on worship out there among the progressives. It has reached a point (actually a trend, a fad) that in a "contemporary worship" format, the assembly is segmented as follows:
(a) The ACTUAL "worship" period that clearly involves the man-designated "Worship Leader" in action -- leading, with his CHOIR (a.k.a. "Praise Team") co-leading, a series of several (and mostly) "praise" songs and occasional "sacred hymns." (Typical of a praise song may include: "I love you, Jesus ... oh, how beautiful you are to me ... the darling of my soul ... Oh, I was made for this, to know Your tender kiss....") Observance of the Lord's Supper is somewhere in the middle of the musical worship period.

(b) After the musical worship period, then, there's the 20-minute sermon with the invitation song and closing song.
You're correct in that the "song leader" is not in Scripture, either. But, of course, the difference is that he is not "the Worship Leader" -- and not serving in that capacity as though he mediated worship between God and His followers. In reality, one who leads singing can simply start the song with the correct pitch and go back to his seat.

The situation of one starting the song (and possibly going back to his seat) should lead one to conclude that it would not be necessary to have 2 or more song starters.

I agree with statement #3 that nowhere in Scripture does it specify a song starter (and worse: a "Worship Leader" in the sense described above). The difference is that a song starter may be necessary whereas the "Worship Leader" to mediate "worship" between God and the congregants is not only unnecessary but is also a violation of the principle of a believer directing his worship to God without mediation. It reminds me of the Roman Catholic Church belief or practice of "confessing sins" to/through the priest.

We already know and, therefore, there's nothing new with where you're going with this.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Keep on Keeping On

November 9 2010, 4:49 PM 

Sonny, would you expect anything differently? William Crump at it again. He wants to answer for us by saying "Yet Sonny would likely say," and also for me William pipes up and assumes for me "he would likely say something to the effect of,"

Sonny, William should run for office. Looks like a sly politicians' rebuttal. Speaking for someone else. A wolf in sheep's clothing. William, not seeing the answer he likes, decides to make it up as he goes......

Here's MY, Dave's, answer, for anyone to see.....The New Testament doesn't list instrumental music as sinful. Therefore, man cannot take it upon himself to add a sin to the Scriptures that is NOT there.
What William Crump wants is a double standard. It is ok for a PA system to be used to aid in our worship to our Lord, but a piano, which also is an aid, cannot be used. Neither one is listed or referred to as being examples in the New Testament. Neither one is authorized. Why use one, but not the other? Tell them William.......PREFERRENCE. William's man made tradition will not allow him to use a piano, but it is ok to use a PA system.
I ask.....why not use both to the Glory of God?
AMEN and AMEN!

 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.141.177.53

"to add a sin to the Scriptures that is NOT there"

November 9 2010, 5:45 PM 

Dave,

Refresh my memory.

You have a short list of sins from I Cor. 5-6 such as covetourness, drunkenness, extortion, idolatry, railing, etc. Can't you think of other sins that may not be found in Scripture? If you can't, then, you have a pretty limited knowledge and understanding of man's nature to do sinful things. If you can and you feel that to God those are sins, do you think that God just forgot to list them? Do you think that God should have listed all the sins of the world that man might possibly commit?

Have you invented yet a musical instrument that consists of several PA systems -- which when played together as a musical unit produce music that could accompany singing wonderfully?

We might be able to compare that musical invention with the piano ... then.

You see, right now, I have difficulty comparing a microphone to a piano.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Keep On Keeping On

November 9 2010, 6:07 PM 

Donnie,
Ever heard of the term....'Apples and Oranges?'
Yeaaaaaaaaaa.....thought so.
Think it might apply with comparing playing a piano to accompany the singing with playing a PA system to do the same? YES!
The fact is....they DO NOT need to be compared.
The point IS........neither a PA nor a piano is spoken of when worshiping God. However, you want to say that the piano is an addition to the singing, while the PA is a tool.
Both aid the singing, and NEITHER keep the singing from happening.
They AID the singing.
The PA does not need to be played.
Let us reiterate the point. The PA DOES NOT have to be played as the piano does. APPLES AND ORANGES.
They both are used to Glorify our God with our singing.
It doesn't really matter. You know what the Truth is.....you just keep on keeping on with your loopity loop Walt logic. You believe if you say something enough times that it will become the truth.
It will not.

==================

Changed writer's name from "Donnie" per Dave's request.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 170.141.177.53 on Nov 10, 2010 4:25 PM


 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Response with wrong Responder Name

November 10 2010, 12:26 PM 

Donnie,
What are you up to these days?
I actually copied and pasted the 'Keep On Keeping On' response by me.
However, it has your name as the responder.
This has happened several times lately.
Is there a glitch with your system?

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.141.177.53

Re: Response with wrong Responder Name

November 10 2010, 12:45 PM 

Dave,

I guess I've been using something similar to Barry Obama's teleprompter. happy.gif

Also, maybe, my subconscious mind tells me not to give you credit for the post. happy.gif

OK ... OK ... OK. If I change it to your name, you will not accuse of editing your message, will you?

Have a good rest-of-the-day.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.150.218

Re: Keep on Keeping On

November 9 2010, 6:51 PM 

The New Testament does not explicitly list snorting cocaine as sinful ("God didn't say not to"), yet we know that to abuse it IS sinful, because it ultimately harms the body when used as a recreational drug. The New Testament also tells us NOT to alter any commands that God has given. We have been told to sing (use our voices) and make melody in our hearts. That's all as far as musical instruction goes--use our voices to make music. May we ADD instruments to "accompany" and "enhance" the singing? No. Why? The New Testament does not include instruments as a way of making music to praise God in Christian worship. Only the voice is specified. What about "God didn't say not to" use instruments? The answer to the latter is that, regarding God's commands, we are not to ADD more to (or take from) that which God has already specified within His commands. Must the New Testament then turn around and be redundant by explicitly stating EVERYTHING that is prohibited about a command? Must the New Testament specify that the ADDITION of instruments in Christian worship is not acceptable? Only rebellious people looking to satisfy their personal preferences would demand that. We are expected to take what commandments have been given in the New Testament and obey them without tweaking them to suit our preferences.

What about Dave's unending question about PA systems? Does the New Testament command them? No. Are they acceptable? Yes. Why? The New Testament says absolutely NOTHING about PA systems. There is no Biblical doctrine about PA systems. Having PA systems does not clash with any Biblical doctrine. On the other hand, there IS Biblical doctrine about worship music, in which only the singing with our voices is specified. Therefore, only our voices are acceptable to make music. What about church buildings, restrooms, kitchens, plumbing, electricity, pews, podiums, and a thousand other "incidentals" in the Church? Does the New Testament command ANY of these latter items? No. Are they acceptable. Yes. Why? There is NO Biblical doctrine about ANY of those incidentals. Therefore, having them does not at all clash with New Testament doctrine.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Check It Out

November 10 2010, 12:23 PM 

William Crump falsely claims this....."The New Testament does not explicitly list snorting cocaine as sinful ("God didn't say not to"), yet we know that to abuse it IS sinful, because it ultimately harms the body when used as a recreational drug."
The Scriptures make William Crump out to be a false teacher by explicitly stating in the NT the following....
1 Corinthians 3
16 Dont you know that you yourselves are Gods temple and that Gods Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys Gods temple, God will destroy that person; for Gods temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.
Snorting cocaine would be doing harm to the body...THEREFORE....explicitly stated. That Scripture in 1 Corinthians covers ANYTHING that would bring harm to the body, including cocaine, and thus is stated EXPLICITLY.

Also, WIlliam Crump and Donnie Cruz, and any other man can say that a piano is an addition where a PA is an aid all day....every day....until our Lord comes again.....but just because they say it is so.....will NEVER make it so.
Both the PA and the piano can be aids. Also, to point out here, both the PA and the piano can be abused to go against orderly worship. That can also be said about a capella singing.

Also, please look over the following statement by William Crump as he speaks about PA systems. He says
"Does the New Testament command them? No. Are they acceptable? Yes. Why? The New Testament says absolutely NOTHING about PA systems. There is no Biblical doctrine about PA systems. Having PA systems does not clash with any Biblical doctrine. On the other hand, there IS Biblical doctrine about worship music, in which only the singing with our voices is specified. Therefore, only our voices are acceptable to make music. What about church buildings, restrooms, kitchens, plumbing, electricity, pews, podiums, and a thousand other "incidentals" in the Church? Does the New Testament command ANY of these latter items? No. Are they acceptable. Yes. Why? There is NO Biblical doctrine about ANY of those incidentals. Therefore, having them does not at all clash with New Testament doctrine.

Now let us place the PIANO in places where he used the PA system....please observe.....
Does the New Testament command them? No. Are they acceptable? Yes. Why? The New Testament says absolutely NOTHING about a piano. There is no Biblical doctrine about a piano. Having a piano does not clash with any Biblical doctrine. On the other hand, there IS Biblical doctrine about worship music. The Scriptures do not rule out musical instruments because instrumental music does not keep anyone from the command TO SING. Were the Scriptures to say that instrumental music is sinful and not to be used in worship to our Lord, and not to accompany our singing, then we would obey, as all Christians ALWAYS strive to obey our Lord. What about church buildings, restrooms, kitchens, plumbing, electricity, pews, podiums, and a thousand other "incidentals" in the Church? Does the New Testament command ANY of these latter items? No. Are they acceptable. Yes. Why? There is NO Biblical doctrine about ANY of those incidentals. Therefore, having them does not at all clash with New Testament doctrine.

Get the picture? Some men will do anything, yes even abuse Scripture, to hold fast to a man made tradition.



 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.146.139.247

Re: Check It Out

November 10 2010, 1:30 PM 

No, Dave, the New Testament does NOT explicitly list cocaine as such as sinful. To do so, the New Testament would have to mention cocaine by name. That's what "explicit" means. Definition: precisely and clearly expressed, leaving nothing to implication; fully stated (source, dictionary.com). The verse in 1 Cor. only makes a general implication. "Explicit" leaves NOTHING to implication. But because of the verse in 1 Cor., we know that anything that harms the body is sinful--by implication.

Are you now clear about that? You should have more self-control than to accuse someone of being a "false teacher" because you are ignorant of word meanings in the dictionary.

It is evident that Dave still has not enrolled in an anger management course, and I guess he never will. His tantrums will continue to be a blight on Christianity.

 
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Martin Baker
(no login)
98.81.71.9

Re: Check It Out

November 10 2010, 6:15 PM 

Does anyone know what argument Dr. Crump is making on the cocaine use in Church? It just seems flawed from the get-go.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.139.144

Re: Check It Out

November 10 2010, 9:09 PM 

The "argument" about cocaine is used as an extreme example to show that justifying anything in the Church with "God didn't say not to" is flawed. Often using that phrase, the change agents think that whatever God does not explicitly condemn by name in the New Testament is OK. To show how idiotic that phrase is, God does not explicitly condemn cocaine by name ("God didn't say not to"), so by that flawed reasoning, using cocaine in worship must be OK. Of course, we know that it would be totally improper to use cocaine in worship, which proves that justifying anything with "God didn't say not to" is monstrously flawed.

In another example, people may justify adding pizza and soft drinks to the Lord's Supper, because "God didn't say not to." Jesus gave us the emblems to use--bread and fruit of the vine; therefore, adding anything to the Lord's Supper that Jesus did not specify is not acceptable.

People may justify adding instrumental music to "enhance" or "accompany" vocal music in the Church, because "God didn't say not to." The New Testament directs us to sing and make melody in our hearts; therefore, adding music made with anything other than the human voice is not acceptable.

We need to learn to take what God has written about His commandments in the New Testament and not tweak them to suit our personal preferences.


 
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Martin Baker
(no login)
98.81.69.150

Re: Check It Out

November 11 2010, 8:35 AM 

Dr. Crump,
I fail to see where anyone said that cocaine use is acceptable to God. Maybe you have created a STRAW MAN argument just to humor yourself?

 
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AM
(no login)
75.89.66.220

Re: Check It Out

November 10 2010, 9:16 PM 

Dr. Crump,

I quess you know first hand the inability of people to understand the written word. With the most eloquent explanation that can be presented and still there is misunderstanding or the total inability to grasp the obvious. For what ever reason, there is a disconnect with people that profess to be one in the Lord, even though we are called to be unified.


Just a thought to ponder, in all that that is written does it occur to anyone that Jesus did not write a single word about his life or his relationship with God? Does anyone see that maybe what is happening right now with this forum, that as a group we can not spell out an understanding of what is right in the sight of God? Maybe that is why we were just given an example to follow. Maybe Jesus new that if he got into writing, every word would be analyzed and defined to each his own ideas, so he just decided to show us how to live and how to be a child of God.

Dr. Crump, for whatever it is worth, your point is well made and I agree with you.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Someone Needs a Time Out

November 11 2010, 9:13 AM 

YES, WIlliam, the NT DOES EXPLICITLY tell us that ANYTHING harmful to the physical body is a sin.
In the definition that you provided, it mentioned "leaving nothing to implication, full stated."

1 Corinthians 3
16 Dont you know that you yourselves are Gods temple and that Gods Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys Gods temple, God will destroy that person; for Gods temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

As I said before, and truthfully said that the above Scriptures EXPLICTILTY tell us that if we destroy our bodies, with WHATEVER WOULD BE HARMFUL (including cocaine) then it is sinful. FULLY STATED doesn't mean that the verse has to actually mention cocaine. It didn't mention cigarettes or crack or heroin either, so by William Crump's explanation0f EXPLICIT, they aren't sinful????? They most certainly are because they destroy our bodies.
So, William Crump, continue to rant and slander and revile those who would call you down for your belligerent behavior and false teachings.
Just believe this William Crump. Your arrogance is well documented, and perhaps that arrogance will not allow you to listen to Truthful reasoning, by me or any other man, but man is not your worry.... man will not judge you.......God will.



 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.142.96

Dave: Obtuse?

November 11 2010, 1:46 PM 

As I said, but which Dave seems not to understand, "explicit" means that NOTHING is left to implication. It means that something is stated by name, specifically and clearly. The New Testament doesn't even mention cocaine at all. Therefore, the admonition not to harm the body IMPLIES that anything we eat, drink, consume, or do that harms the body is sinful. By IMPLICATION, then, using cocaine as a recreational drug is sinful, because it harms the body. If the New Testament had mentioned "cocaine" by name, then that would have been an EXPLICIT reference to cocaine.

I have the feeling that Dave still won't understand (or maybe he's pretending to be obtuse so he can continue to "argue"), but I tried anyway. If he still doesn't understand, I'm afraid that's his problem.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Both Implicitly and Explicitly

November 12 2010, 4:58 PM 

William Crump says....."The New Testament does not explicitly list snorting cocaine as sinful ("God didn't say not to"), yet we know that to abuse it IS sinful, because it ultimately harms the body when used as a recreational drug."

EXPLICITLY or by IMPLICATION, you know that cocaine is sinful. However, William's argument all along is that since instrumental music isn't listed as sinful, then cocaine isn't sinful either because it isn't listed by name in 1 Corinthians 3:16. I have noticed lately that his tone has changed to try to get away from this argument, or at least now he wants to use a different TYPE of argument. Even a GOOD lawyer couldn't do a finer job.
That fact remains......instrumental music is not listed as being sinful. The sins of man, listed in Galatians 5, are OBVIOUS. Is instrumental music listed as such?
The point is made
Donnie, tell me a sin, that you can think of that is NOT LISTED in the NT......just one????

 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.141.177.53

Re: Both Implicitly and Explicitly

November 12 2010, 5:53 PM 

Dave,

You've confused me. One moment you imply [oops!] that Galatians 5 is a complete list of man's sins and use it in your defense of instrumental music not being listed as a sin. Now you're asking me about any sin "NOT LISTED in the NT."

What about just dealing with Gal. 5 for now? You should know it doesn't list the following:

-- rape
-- pride
-- theft
-- blasphemy
-- covetousness
-- deceit
-- foolishness
-- whatsoever is not of faith
-- wounding the weak conscience of another brother
-- etc., etc.

See the risk of looking for a specific "not to" in regard to the dulcimer, piano, organ or the sackbut or any other inanimate, lifeless musical instrument, being used in the assembly of LIVING saints?

If I were you, I would stick with God's command, directive or authorization.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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