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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Both Implicitly and Explicitly

November 12 2010, 6:23 PM 

Dave is "straining" to argue and is deliberately being obtuse.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Both Implicitly and Explicitly

November 13 2010, 5:43 PM 

There are sins that are not explicitly listed in the New Testament, meaning they are not specifically mentioned by name; using cocaine is one of them, for example; deliberately disobeying the speed limit is another. Yet they are implicitly mentioned, meaning: not explicit; implied; indirect (source: Using cocaine is an implied sin, because to use it as a recreational drug is to harm the body, and anything that harms the body is sinful, according to the New Testament. Deliberately disobeying the speed limit is an implied sin, because Jesus taught us to obey those who have authority over us, which include the lawmakers of the land. Thus thumbing our noses at the civil law is an implied sin. I have used the example of cocaine to illustrate the fallacy of "God didn't say not to." If we justify ourselves in all things with that phrase, then anything not mentioned by name in the New Testament is OK. But we know that not all things can be justified with "God didn't say not to," just as that phrase cannot justify snorting cocaine and speeding, not to mention many other acts that are not mentioned in the New Testament, like implementing instrumental worship.

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Martin Baker
(no login)


November 15 2010, 5:28 PM 

Dr. Crump,

Two out of three correct answers is not bad for some folks but I expected a better score from you. You answered the cocaine usage and speeding violation correctly. You referenced scripture to support them being a sin. However you stated that if you deliberately broke the speed limit law it was a sin. Deliberate or not deliberate, a speeding violation is against the law.

On the instrumental music issue you did not reference any scripture that would make it a sin. After several posts with some fancy words and a lot of smoke, you have failed to prove your point on instrumental music being a sin.

Pitch pipes, tuning forks, song directors, power points, PA systems, instrumental music, etc, they are all good. They are merely aids to our singing.

The Book of Revelation speaks of instrumental music in heaven. I guess you will be looking around for some heavenly ear plugs God didnt say not to (Your words not mine).

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: AH, HAAH !

November 15 2010, 9:54 PM 

The subject of instrumental worship has been discussed countless times on other threads here, but I guess we'll have to go over it again for Martin's benefit.

Surely Martin is familiar with Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, which specify that we are to praise God with our voices in song. Nowhere in the New Testament are we instructed to ADD instruments to our singing. Furthermore, we are told not to go above what is written in Scripture, that we are not to be "puffed up" with the doctrines of men over what is written in the New Testament (1 Cor. 4:6). In other words, we are not to add to or take from what is specified in any of God's commands in the New Testament. Man comes along, however, and says that we can ADD instruments to our worship, because God does not explicitly forbid them. That is the same as saying, "God didn't say not to," which is a dangerous assumption based on man's personal preferences. Note also that "God didn't say not to" is not found anywhere in the New Testament, because it comes from the carnal mind of man. God need not make an exhaustive list of every "Thou shalt not" and every item that is forbidden, when He has given commands in the New Testament that are quite specific, and from 1 Cor. 4:6, He expects us to follow them as written. Yet man would insist that God make such a list, which is madness.

When a doctor specifies a certain drug(s) on a prescription, does he include an exhaustive list of all other drugs in the PDR that may not be dispensed? Of course not! The pharmacist knows that it is unlawful to fill the prescription with anything except the drug(s) that are written thereon. Likewise, true Christians know that it is spiritually unlawful to tweak God's New Testament commands to suit their own preferences. Therefore by implication, instrumental worship is sinful, just as by implication, using cocaine as a recreational drug is sinful since it harms the body, and the New Testament tells us that anything we do that harms the body is sinful. The New Testament does not explicitly mark cocaine and instrumental worship as sinful, yet as I've just explained, the New Testament implicitly (indirectly) marks them as sinful. Those who follow only explicit commands and deny implicit commands adhere to "God didn't say not to." They live spiritually dangerous lives.

The reference to "harps" in Revelation is an old, tired argument, yet some people still "justify" their instrumental worship with it. Such people must actually think that of all the physical items on earth, musical instruments will be the ONLY non-human items that will survive the end of the world and will be transported directly to heaven so that all the spiritual beings there can play literal, physical instruments to glorify God. Don't they realize that since heaven is a SPIRITUAL place, there is no need for physical instruments? If there is going to be music in heaven, won't it come from the saved who are singing, just as they did on earth--without added accompaniment? Don't people realize that the "harps" and other items in Revelation are symbols and figures, because Revelation is comprised of apocalyptic language? Does Revelation explicitly say that instruments are sinful? No. Neither does any other New Testament book. Yet we know by implication (see above), after carefully studying the New Testament, that instruments ARE INDEED sinful in Christian worship. Is there any reference in Revelation of Christians worshipping with instruments ON EARTH? No. Nor is there any command for Christians to worship with instruments ON EARTH. Those who take the FIGURE of angels playing "harps" as a license for Christians to implement instrumental worship ON EARTH are really stretching (abusing) Scripture. No doubt these folks think that angels will literally have "wings" that enable them to fly. Again, "wings" are figures that symbolize SPEED--the ability to go rapidly from place to place in less than a millisecond.

Lastly, pitch pipes and tuning forks (both of which are used to set the pitch of a song, nothing more, and are not used during the singing itself), song directors, power points, PA systems, kitchens, restrooms, pews, podiums, church buildings, carpets, electricity in church buildings, indoor plumbing, and a thousand other incidental items are good and are not sinful, because God never issued any commands about them whatsoever. None of those incidentals clash with the Gospel of Christ and God's commands. Yet because we DO have New Testament instructions about the KIND of music to use, which is vocal music, then ADDING instrumental music clashes with God's command. People who implement instruments tweak God's command to satisfy their preference for instruments. God has not commanded that we implement any kind of "aid" to our singing. That man considers instruments as "aids" to singing is, again, a dangerous assumption not supported by the New Testament.

If Martin is interested in the arguments that vainly attempt to "justify" instrumental worship using Psalm 150 and 2 Chron. 29, he can search for them on this site. There are plenty of posts about them.

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(no login)

Can't Do It

November 13 2010, 11:53 PM 

Donnie listed sins of.....
'rape, pride, theft, blasphemy, covetousness, deceit, foolishness, whatsoever is not of faith, wounding the weak conscience of another brother.'

ALL of those sins are listed in the NT. All of them.
Donnie, now show where instrumental music is listed. Hey Donnie, why not umbrella instrumental music under the sin you listed as....'wounding the weak conscience of another brother.'

Give it a's always a good one. It's certainly the one a lot of men abuse when they are reaching for something that is not there.

Oh, the comment about me sticking with Galatians 5.......
You can ask all you want........I prefer to use ALL of the Scriptures, not like men who want to use just certain Scriptures that would serve their purpose, but then discard the Scriptures that they feel would disprove their preferences or dislikes.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Can't Do It

November 14 2010, 3:43 AM 


Exactly the point. I'm glad you've finally made the shift from thinking that Galatians 5 listed all the sins of mankind and you were so confident that IM was not listed.

I did list more sins from the rest of the Bible for your benefit because you had thought I couldn't find any more sins. Caught you by surprise, didn't I? I am glad that you "no longer" can say and ask: "William, the list of sins is found in Galatians 5; where do you see that IM is listed?"

Here's another surprise for you. I did that list of more sins (that you hadn't thought about) very, very hurriedly. I am sure there is a lot more to find, given the time.

Here's yet another surprise for you. There are more sins that are not mentioned in the Bible, unless you think that man is sinless (but I doubt that you think that man is sinless).

You prefer to use ALL of the Scriptures, you say? I certainly do, too.

Here's what's ironic -- in your use of ALL of the Scriptures, until now you haven't found one command, example or implication that mechanical music [piano or sackbut] is to be used in the assembly of NT saints as they "teach and admonish one another in ... songs."

Next time you're in the assembly at Clemson, ask yourself:
"How can I teach and admonish the piano or sackbut ... or vice versa, how can the piano or sackbut teach and admonish me?"

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Music ourlawed Mount Sinai and The Church of Christ in the wilderness

November 9 2010, 5:11 PM 

Ex. 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you:
..... every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death:
..... for whosoever doeth any work therein,
.....that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Keep in Latin: Custodio II. With the accessory idea of hindering free motion, A. In gen., to hold something back, to preserve, keep:

..... Meaning to keep precepts or laws: Regula a rule, pattern, measuring rod,
..... formula sermonis
..... Loquor to speak, talk, say (sermo in the lang. of common life,
..... in the tone of conversation Opposite to poetry or music

Custodio: hold something back, preserve, hinder free motion, watch, preserve. hold back simulation.

.....Simulatio hold back . a falsely assumed appearance,
.....a false show, feigning, shamming, pretence, feint, i
.....insincerity, deceit, hypocrisy, simulation,
.....pretend to be under a divine command.


Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute): --- take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute,

Of Lucifer the "singing and harp playing prostitute" in the garden of Eden to PROFANE:

Ezek. 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

[linked image]`

Israel PROFANED the Sabbath by MUSIC and God "turned them over to worship the starry host which they did in Israel and in Judah and in ANY instrumental church near you.

Disciples do not HAVE to be hobbled by a direct command when Jesus comes to be our ONLY teacher when we "teach that which is written" or "that which has been taught."

Christ now CUTS PEOPLE OFF as defined in Revelation 18 when He removes the LAMPS or seven spirits of Divine knowledge (Isaiah 11) so you cannot read black text on white paper.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: A Concerned Member Of The Church (Part 2) - 3 Questions

November 10 2010, 11:32 PM 

1809 - The Christian Association commissioned Thomas Campbell (another "change agent") to write a Declaration and Address,

Lie, lie, lie: when Alexander Campbell met Thomas Campbell when he got off the ship, Thomas handed Alexander the DECLARATION AND ADDRESS. The Campbells defined:

Church as A School of Christ (they had read their Bible)
Worship is Reading and Musing the Word.
At the time they would have used the Psalter only: Alexander allowed only 5 simple melodies.

The Change was well under way when John Calvin proposed Restoring the Church of Christ.

It was Calvin who for the first time in recorded history permitted UNISON singing of Psalms (only) which had been rewritten so they COULD BE set to meter. This is not a matter of right or wrong but of incontrovertible historical documented evidence.

Because the Levites were an old instrumental BURNT OFFERING of infants to Molech cultg in Egypt, God OUTLAWED instrumental music or anything which would detract from honor due only to the Creator and NOT to the CREATURE however attractive he/she/it is to both genders. Romans 1 will define it for you.

That was in Exodus 31 and in Exodus 32 they DID IT: they rose up to play in MUSICAL IDOLATRY. All of the Bible and recorded history says DON'T DO IT YOU WILL NEVER GET BACK UP and they just can't resist trying to force everyone to DO IT.

Go ahead and do it: John says that the music as performance crew perform SORCERY and will be cast into the lake of fire.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: "Toxic" Christian Ideas (?)

November 14 2010, 11:46 PM 

The following was posted by Sonny earlier:

Re: "Toxic" Christian Ideas (?) November 13 2010, 1:07 PM
I don't know what this has to do with Brother Jeff Walling and Winterfest. They do not have insrumental music nor the atmosphere you described. They do have to sessions of 6 to 7 thousand people in each singing praises to God.

And I think what Brother Whaley was saying is that you defend some sin that is clearly sin in Scripture but not other sin (or what is sin in your mind pertaining to IM). Why are you casting stones at Brother Walling but not Brother Wayne Jackson, Brother John Waddey, or Brother Dave Miller based on what you stated earlier about "smash"?


The sub-topic of "Jeff Walling and Winterfest" is worthy of our discussion. I have checked on a few videos related to the Winterfest 2010 at Gatlinburg, TN (a.k.a. "The Jeff Walling Fan Club"). So, I'm also repeating my response as follows:

Defending some sin? I have no idea what sin another person commits. I'm not psychic nor do I question God's omniscience. No!!! Nobody is defending any kind of sin here. Period. I think it is really time for you to stop dwelling on somebody else's sin or on sins other than your own. Otherwise, you will continue to be guilty of "casting stones" at another brother.

No, Sonny, pointing out some false or perverted teaching of another brother is not "casting stones." In fact, the Bible warns us about false teachers and false teachings.

Now, Jeff Walling and Winterfest [a.k.a. "The Jeff Walling Fan Club"]: Ken Sublett can provide a lot of information about Mr. Walling and his Christian Church connection (e.g., regarding the NACC event held in Louisville, KY); his stance on instrumental music; etc. Hopefully, the Providence Road Church of Christ in Charlotte, NC, will not begin using musical devices in their gatherings under the leadership of Jeff Walling, Senior Minister. The church's website states: "We do use instrumental worship at youth gatherings, childrens worship, Celebrate Recovery and other special gatherings." Thanks, elders, although I think that it is a very timid assertion that "... we do not use musical instruments ... a cappella singing is a tradition of most Churches of Christ"; rather than that God has not directed use of musical devices to "teach and admonish one another in ... songs."

Here are some links for the reader to enjoy:

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(no login)

Thanks a million

November 15 2010, 10:53 AM 

I just appreciate Donnie for posting those uplifting spiritual videos.
Thank you Donnie.
Just want to say thanks.....once again.
I had you pegged wrong all along Donnie.
Maybe next time they will do a rendition of 'Trust and Obey."
Chris Tomlin does a newer version of 'Amazing Grace.'

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(no login)

Chris Tonlin Amazing Grace

November 15 2010, 11:35 AM 

With your best show and best effort, please give me a critique of the song, Amazing Grace, by Chris Tomlin.
Certainly would appreciate your critique.
Thank you.

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(no login)

Re: Chris Tonlin Amazing Grace

November 15 2010, 12:14 PM 

I'm beginning to think that you're beginning to like me -- which may be a good sign. Or, that you're again trying to get my attention by identifying yourself as me -- which may not be a good sign.

I'm not really into money-making "Contemporary Christian Music American Idol" in-the-name-of-Christ business ventures. But I might critique the song by Chris Tomlin when I get a chance. BTW, Madison's "contemporary worship" division has already been singing a different version of Amazing Grace (I think it's by Chris Tomlin -- now that you've mentioned it). Would you be surprised? I think not. Madison's contemporary division has already been singing quite of few of those "sacred" [ happy.gif ] praise songs of "Christian" pop/rock artists like Michael Smith [???].

Madison's contemporary group has also sung a few times this one: "I Can Only Imagine." Personally, I can only imagine that only the "Praise Team" can do a good job of performing this contemporary "worship/praise" musical piece -- it is somewhat complicated for folks to sing "as a congregation." In other words, it is not congregational-singing-friendly.

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(no login)

Get the Message? IT IS ME!!!

November 15 2010, 1:12 PM 

You say that you're not the one putting your name in the name section where mine should be? Come on Donnie.......
Couldn't it be a system glitch? If it isn't, use that excuse anyway.....
Anyway, good point about the song 'I can only imagine'.....
Likewise, some songs sound only good for the congregation. Also, some sound good sung by either/both. 'Jesus is Coming Soon' sounds good congregational wise, but not solo or praise team.

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(no login)

And Jesus overthrew the tables of the moneychangers

November 15 2010, 3:39 PM 


If I were to put my name while it is your (or anyone's) post, it would be flagged as "this post has been edited...." No, it couldn't be a system glitch because no one else has an issue with it. It could be a mind-keyboard-hand-fingering coordination glitch on your part. sad.gif

I'm afraid that a Michael Smith or a Chris Tomlin solo rendition of "Jesus Is Coming Soon" MAY NOT SELL. Know why?

I think you've ignored all the other important messages and issues I've posted for discussion. Remarks [from the preceding post alone] such as:

-- "in-the-name-of-Christ business ventures"
-- "money-making"
-- "contemporary Christian Music American Idol"
-- "contemporary worship division"
-- "sacred" [ happy.gif ] praise songs
-- "Christian" pop/rock artists
-- the unsingable "I Can Only Imagine"
-- "Praise Team" performances
-- "not-congregational-singing-friendly"

... just didn't register with you.

There are not conducive to the spiritual growth or health of a Christian or a congregation. Didn't you know that?

Agree or disagree, anyone?

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(no login)

Another List

November 15 2010, 5:05 PM 

Per your list Donnie of.....
- "in-the-name-of-Christ business ventures"
-- "money-making"
-- "contemporary Christian Music American Idol"
-- "contemporary worship division"
-- "sacred" [ happy.gif ] praise songs
-- "Christian" pop/rock artists
-- the unsingable "I Can Only Imagine"
-- "Praise Team" performances
-- "not-congregational-singing-friendly"

Donnie, yes we noticed your personally flavored touch or dislike with this list when you putup there "divison" after contemporary worship

Why division?
Because YOU believe it to be divisive, while others do not, especially those who participate and praise the Lord during such a service. And YOU do not have the backing of the Scriptures when you promote this non-traditional service to be divisive.
"Praise team performances"......nice touch there too Donnie. Do you think that the praise team members believe it to be a 'performance?' Have you ever asked them??? Do you believe that if they told you that they believe that they ONLY praise God while participating in these 'praise teams'.....would you believe them?
Maybe I could ask you that since you condemn such praise teams as being performances, maybe I could ask you the sort of same question. Is your traditional singing with other like-minded brothers and sisters in Chrst actually a praise to God, or are you just there going through the motions? See how it works Donnie?
Hey Donnie, have you ever been to a contemporary service?

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(no login)

Worship: "Contemporary" vs. "Traditional"

November 16 2010, 5:31 PM 


I did not say anything about promoting "this non-traditional service to be divisive." What I meant was that the worship assembly at Madison is split or DIVIDED between two groups currently: (1) "traditional" at 8 a.m. and (2) "contemporary" at 10:30 a.m. These were the official designations by the elders in 2002, soon after the church havoc that had nearly half of the 3,000-member congregation leaving.

While we're at it ("Praise Team" issue), we might as well be reminded of the problems that arise when "change agents" interfere with the affairs of a once-peaceful congregation. At Madison, it was the case of implementing unnecessary, controversial and divisive changes using the Rick Warren's culture-driven "church growth" scheme.

Whether or not the plan for Madison was to go "instrumental" in the end, it was the implementation of the services of the Praise Team, the final straw that broke the camel's back. And you and many folks would say and wonder: "a church or congregation dividing over a Praise Team"? Yes ... it happened at Madison.

So, I think that should explain as to why the division.

Why the "performance" thingy? It's just there. It exists. No matter the claim that the Praise Team is there to "help" the congregation (the other team) "learn" new campfire songs. Right!!! As if the congregation really needed to learn 10-12 new songs -- the average number of songs sung during the "musical worship" period.

How did the old saints learn new songs in the olden days? Why was congregational singing in our church assemblies the envy of our denominational neighbors?

Trust me, Dave. With the advent of the "Praise Team" formula for worship, congregational singing is no longer it. I think that the modern-day "Worship Leader" [in today's culture is one who brings the congregants into "God's holy presence"] do a little experiment -- get the church money refunded or sell their microphones to Charismatic worship concerts and let the congregation sing without the CHOIR. RESULT: "Oh, is that the church of Christ congregational singing? What happened?" Well, it's a case of a severe PTDS (Praise Team Dependency Syndrome).

In case I haven't told you before, here's my confession: I do attend the "Contemporary Worship" division. That's why I'm capable of telling you all about performance, musical and other issues. Are you now a little less incredulous of my observations?

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(no login)


November 17 2010, 12:43 AM 

Not "INCREDULOUS" of your observations Donnie......seeing how you claim to ATTEND the contemporary service.
ATTEND might be the key word, for you certainly CANNOT nor could ever participate in such a service.
To PARTICIPATE in worship with brothers and sisters whom you claim to would have to get your nose out of the air. You simply ATTEND to OBSERVE those you condemn. You can't wait to get back from a contemporary service and come here and spew gossip, an evil tongue about those who worship differently than you, thusly named by you as 'change agents.'
'Well this week the praise team stood up and the women were on the outside of the men showing authority over the men.' You wonder why this site is considered a scab and blight among the brotherhood?
You cannot worship with those you continually, day after day, condemn. If you don't participate, but only are certainly ONLY a hypocrite.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Incredulous???

November 17 2010, 2:44 AM 

Thanks for opining in a high-spirited manner. I can just hear you now.

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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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