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A Concerned Member Of The Church (Part 2) - 3 Questions

October 11 2010 at 7:44 PM
Sonny  (no login)
from IP address 99.186.93.107



1. If someone worships God acappella, yet commits adultery, can they be forgiven?

2. If someone worships God with a piano, yet does not commit adultery, can they be forgiven? (I understand this is assuming/implying that the piano is a sin.)

3. If someone worships acappella, does not commit adultery, but does not show mercy to others, can they be forgiven? (James 2:12 and 4:11-12 warn not to judge without mercy.)

-Sonny


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Oct 12, 2010 1:24 AM


 
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AuthorReply
Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.139.94

A Fourth Question

October 12 2010, 11:33 AM 

If Person X worships a cappella (BTW, that's two Italian words, not one word), yet spreads sordid tales to smear Person Y, can Person X be forgiven?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.157.38.235

No Response?

November 4 2010, 12:10 AM 

Here is my thought:

NO, unless the person who spread the sordid tale repented, apologized to the person he wronged, and retracted all his previous statements about that person who had been wronged.

 
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Scotty
(no login)
75.53.145.80

The tale is true

November 5 2010, 9:38 AM 

Bill,

The information Sonny presented is true. It just happens to be truth that Donnie does not want repeated here. Itbis his website and his right to decide what can be discussed and what cannot be. But does not change the truth into an untruth.


 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.141.177.53

Carrying a "tale"

November 5 2010, 11:21 AM 

What's that saying?
"He who carries a 'tale' makes a monkey of himself."

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.222.246

Re: Carrying a "tale"

November 5 2010, 12:02 PM 

Just because Sonny says something is "true" does not make it "true." Just because Scotty chooses to believe Sonny's tale does not make the tale "true." Many believed the "tale" that the world would end in the year 1000 and then in the year 2000. It never did. The "tale" was not true at all.

The saying Donnie gave is a play on the homophones "tail" and "tale." Monkeys and asses both have tails. Perhaps a more colorful variation of that saying should include the following wording, "He who carries a 'tale' makes an ass of himself."

happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif

 
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Scotty
(no login)
75.53.145.80

Insults do not change the past nor the truth

November 5 2010, 4:49 PM 

Sonny said he knows first hand of what he spoke. I also have spoken to former family members who should know. Denying the past truth does not make it untrue. The only reason the truth is denied here is that it involves one whose opinion you value more than you value the truth of the past.

This all remands me of a former friend who left their spouse, publicly slandered and bore false witness against their former spouse, but when they left the church of Christ and moved to a sabbatarian church, the sabbatarians ignored the sin because this person was now one of their own.

You can choose to deny or ignore the sin because you like what someone teaches. Or you can know the person by their actions.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.141.177.53

God's truth is what matters: do not insult His truth; let's discuss and learn

November 5 2010, 6:42 PM 

Scotty,

If you are a new poster, we welcome your presence.

Here's our message in dealing with anyone's "tale" (true or untrue) concerning someone else's sinfulness. Or, even someone else's righteousness. Either way, a Christian's righteousness or sinfulness [forgiven by our merciful God or not forgiven] is between him and God.

You or anyone can submit a message telling the whole world about your own righteousness or sinlessness. For the same reason, whether that "tale" is true or untrue, that message will not be approved, either.

If you have anything to contribute to our discussion of doctrinal issues or God's truth, please feel free to do so. That's the kind of truth we're interested in.

ConcernedMembers

P.S.: You said that: "you can know the person by their actions." I would like to add that "one can know the person by his thoughts" also, such as what you've demonstrated so far in your posts.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.196.205

Some Sinners Are Bold Enough to Cast the "First Stone" Anyway

November 5 2010, 8:50 PM 

Paul (formerly Saul) had once hauled Christians to prison, where they suffered torture and death at the hands of the Romans. Yet Christ forgave Paul and made him an apostle. When Paul began his ministry, the disciples in Jerusalem were initially wary of him, because of his past (Acts 9:26).

Today, though a man preaches in the name of Jesus, those who loathe what that person preaches may attempt to discredit that man by dredging up whatever "past" he may have had or even by spreading false tales. It's the old tactic of "murdering" the messenger to stifle the message. All people on this planet, preachers alike, have sins in their lives. Man may think that some of those sins are "worse" than others, yet every sin, no matter how slight, has the potential to cause a person to lose his soul, UNLESS Christ has forgiven that person.

Therefore, good "Christian" people with itching ears, before you leap to wag your loose tongues and point your soiled fingers in accusation, remember these words of Jesus:

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye" (Matt. 7:3-5 KJV).

Or how about these words?

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..." (John 8:7 KJV).

Yes, by their attitudes, it is evident that some folks as much as say, "Well, I am indeed without sin and perfect, so here's the largest rock I can find, and I aim to crush your miserable skull with it!"--SMASH

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Which is it? Either way, finally some common ground!!!

November 8 2010, 11:52 PM 

Is it a tale? or Is it truth for which forgiveness has been granted? You are changing your defense. Other than this, the spiritual points you make are EXACTLY what I was advocating, and that people with sin (and like you stated, this includes elders, preachers, deacons, and all) should show some humility and contrition and also mercy toward other Christians. We have finally reached some common ground!!! However, the question is who is casting stones and who is trying to hold the thrower(s) accountable? The stones on this site are being cast at the "progressive" preachers. The stones are being cast at the "change agents". Look at the people named on the wall. Is "The Wall" article not casting stones? I and others are simply trying to hold individuals accountable for the double-standard (hypocrisy). In conclusion: No one is throwing a stone at Brother Crump, Cruz, Sublett, etc. We are simply engaging in dialogue and refuting your claims and points against "progressives" and "change agents".

-Sonny

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Re: Some Sinners Are Bold Enough to Cast the "First Stone" Anyway

November 9 2010, 11:42 AM 

Folks consider it a great incredible glorious outstanding day whenever a hyper-ultra-conservative who customarily advocates toxic "Christian" ideas and acts superior to other Christians is now urging grace and forgiveness and teachings of Jesus for a change. Is this miraculous? Or supernatural? Or providential? Or coincidence? I love listening to hair-splitting conversations and classes on miraculous versus supernatural. Anywho it looks as though the Holy Spirit is at work on this site and in the heart of Mr. Crump. Apparently he has finally stopped his subscription to The Spiritual Sword and Christianity Then And Now and allowed the actual Word of God and Holy Spirit to get under his skin. Let's give the Lord a hand clap or an amen.

Fred Whaley

"If you are in the parking lot and have still not quit arguing with the people on the porch, you haven't left the Church of Christ yet."

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.142.84

Re: Some Sinners Are Bold Enough to Cast the "First Stone" Anyway

November 9 2010, 1:08 PM 

It sounds as if Fred revels in sarcasm and hyperbole.

His statement, "Let's give the Lord a hand clap or an amen" smacks of the adrenaline-powered pentecostal/charismatic movement. Their "sermons" often contain phraseology not unlike the following:

"If you got the Lord, you gonna walk with the Lord. Am I right, oh yeah, am I right?"

"Yassuh, yassuh, hallelujah!"

"An' iffen you walk with the Lord, you gonna talk with the Lord. Iffen I'm right, say 'Amen'!"

"Amen, yassuh, amen!"

"Ah cain't hearrr youuuuuu! Say 'hallelujah' iffen I'm right!"

"Hallelujah, amen, yassuh, amen, yeah-boy, wooooo!"

"Oh yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right! Gimme a big 'hallelujah iffen' I'm right oh yeah mmmm yeah, gimme a 'hallelujah'!"

Sound familiar? Not much in the way of teaching and edification there, just a lot of frenzied group whoop. happy.gif


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.13.172

"Toxic" Christian Ideas (?)

November 9 2010, 4:59 PM 

Fred mentioned "toxic" Christian ideas from "hyper-ultra-conservative[s]." Maybe Fred is referring to those in the Church of Christ who:

--Follow the strait and narrow path by obeying the teachings of Christ.

--Believe that the ultimate source to learn about salvation is the New Testament and not the latest, best-selling book by some ultra-liberal shaman of the Change Movement.

--Reject the idea that a person may be saved simply by "following his heart."

--Reject denominationalism on the basis that Christ never commanded that His Church be divided into hundreds of different denominations with abundant beliefs and doctrines that are alien to His; rather, Christ preached about His ONE True Church.

--Take Christ's requirements for salvation very seriously.

--Will not pollute worship with frivolity, fun and games, jokes, comedy, drama, soloists, praise teams, and other worldly events that convert the worship assemby into a raucous center for the performing arts.

--Believe the principles and teachings of Christ's ONE True Church are still alive and well after more than 2,000 years.

--Continue to follow the Old Paths of Christ's teachings in the New Testament.

--Believe that having "love" and "feeling good about Jesus" are fine, yet without strict obedience to Jesus, they are worthless.

I guess you could say that, in the eyes of some misguided people, following Jesus as He has commanded is a "toxic" concept for Christianity.


 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Re: "Toxic" Christian Ideas (?)

November 12 2010, 2:18 PM 

Folks we need to accept the facts. Mr. Crump is superior in his bible knowledge and tantrums as seen here on his (over)reaction to handclaps and amens in his first response. He is also superior in judging and correcting others. One way sir your views and statements are toxic is that you go along with this site covering up and defending [. . .] a preacher as you have with Sonny but then attack a preacher or any Christian because of instrumental worship. So this Mr. Crump is an example of why I think you are toxic. You strain a gnat and swallow a camel. I was obviously wrong about you stopping your subscription to The Spiritual Sword. Your response was like reading one of its toxic articles. The Spiritual Sword also strains gnats but swallows camels. Maybe the Holy Spirit will again work on your heart and cause you to be forgiving of all sinners including those who sin in your mind because of music and then we can again give the Lord a hand clap of joy and shout amen. Maybe we could go to Winterfest together in February 2011 but not to cast stones and SMASH people any longer for group whoop.

Fred Whaley

"If you are in the parking lot and have still not quit arguing with the people on the porch, you haven't left the Church of Christ yet."

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Brother Fred:

Eph. 6:17; Heb. 4:12 -- "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

But others prefer Jeff Walling and his theatrical genius and instruments of music.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 170.141.177.53 on Nov 12, 2010 3:29 PM


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.149.157.29

Re: "Toxic" Christian Ideas (?)

November 12 2010, 5:27 PM 

Well, as I said, some folks like Fred seem to think that it is "toxic" to teach others to be strict followers of Jesus' teachings in the New Testament. In today's postmodern "church," apparently the way to avoid being "toxic" is to transform the teachings of Christ and the worship assembly into as much of a howling circus, a raucous sideshow, and a boisterous saloon as possible to keep the crowd "happy." That's a total blight on the Church.

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: "Toxic" Christian Ideas (?)

November 12 2010, 5:43 PM 

The last time I was at Winterfest I witnessed no theatrics from Brother Jeff Walling, but a simple yet powerful 55 minute lesson on the 10 Commandments and righteousness and obedience which led to preaching Jesus Christ crucified. Then he extended an invitation that included mentioning baptism around 18 times. The 10 Commandments, Jesus and baptism are all in my Bible. What about yours? Jeff Walling has led more people to Jesus Christ than you or me will ever know. Praise God for dedicated ambassadors for Christ who choose to lift up Christ crucified rather than sectarian dogma and theological minutia drivel.

-Sonny

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.157.38.35

Re: "Toxic" Christian Ideas (?)

November 12 2010, 6:43 PM 

I've been to churches where the "worship" atmosphere was definitely one akin to howling circuses, raucous sideshows, and boisterous saloons. It's no secret here that was even once an organist for a Southern Baptist congregation. The pastor there decided to bring in a rock/praise band with screeching guitars and crashing drums. Now that's what I really call "toxic." Sometimes when the band was whooping in a frenzy, I had to "step out" for a moment and walk the halls until they had finished their ear-splitting cacophony.

One time, a mother visited that congregation and brought her little girl to the "service." When the praise band got into high gear, the girl asked her mother what kind of "music" that was. The mother said that was music to "praise" God. The little girl replied, "Oh no, Mommy, that's not 'God' music. That music sounds mean!" Out of the mouths of babes...

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: "Toxic" Christian Ideas (?)

November 13 2010, 1:07 PM 

I don't know what this has to do with Brother Jeff Walling and Winterfest. They do not have insrumental music nor the atmosphere you described. They do have to sessions of 6 to 7 thousand people in each singing praises to God.

And I think what Brother Whaley was saying is that you defend some sin that is clearly sin in Scripture but not other sin (or what is sin in your mind pertaining to IM). Why are you casting stones at Brother Walling but not Brother Wayne Jackson, Brother John Waddey, or Brother Dave Miller based on what you stated earlier about "smash"?

-Sonny

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: "Toxic" Christian Ideas (?)

November 14 2010, 4:58 AM 

Sonny,

Defending some sin? I have no idea what sin another person commits. I'm not psychic nor do I question God's omniscience. No!!! Nobody is defending any kind of sin here. Period. I think it is really time for you to stop dwelling on somebody else's sin or on sins other than your own. Otherwise, you will be continue to be guilty of "casting stones" at another brother.

No, Sonny, pointing out some false or perverted teaching of another brother is not "casting stones." In fact, the Bible warns us about false teachers.

Now, Jeff Walling and Winterfest [a.k.a. "The Jeff Walling Fan Club"]. Ken Sublett can provide a lot of information about Mr. Walling and his Christian Church connection (the NACC held in Louisville, KY), his stance on instrumental music, etc. Hopefully, the Providence Road Church of Christ in Charlotte, NC will not begin using musical devices in their gatherings under the leadership of Jeff Walling, Senior Minister. The church's website states: "We do use instrumental worship at youth gatherings, childrens worship, Celebrate Recovery and other special gatherings." Thanks, elders, although I think that it is a very timid assertion that "...
`` we do not use musical instruments ... a cappella singing is a tradition of most Churches of Christ
"; rather than that God has not directed use of musical devices to "teach and admonish one another in ... songs."

Here are some links for the reader to enjoy:

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.13.178

Re: "Toxic" Christian Ideas (?)

November 14 2010, 10:32 AM 

Sonny gave Winterfest as apparently THE one example to show that he has never experienced a worship assembly with emotional frenzy. I countered with my experiences in churches where there was not only emotional frenzy but instrumental worship as well. Sonny seemed to imply that no one worships with emotional frenzy. I countered with the FACT that yes, some churches DO.

 
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