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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.230.96

Re: The Song (non-instrumental) Remains the Same

November 1 2010, 9:21 AM 

Dave should be careful about accusing others of name-calling and slander, when he is highly proficient in slinging slander, character assassinations, insults, sarcasm, and other verbal abuse at those with whom he disagrees. Mote and beam, my boy, mote and beam.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Still: The Pope's CHOIR BOYS = the Progressive's PRAISE TEAM

November 2 2010, 12:16 AM 

Dave,

Here you are -- deviating from the issue to which you don't seem to have an answer.

But your assertions will not go unanswered this time:

(a) Your twisted definition of "behavior unbecoming of a Christian" is simply that you are incapable of debating a Christian who presents arguments with scriptural evidence.

(b) It wasn't the case of "you two" being banned. [Your memory has failed you, Dave.] Rather, the case was that there was a GLOBAL BANNING [not Al Gore's "global warming"] of CONSERVATIVE posters from the LIBERAL, PROGRESSIVE website.

(c) I'm glad you mentioned: "Name calling, slander, reviling and statements that do not have anything to do with the discussion." Why? That remark typifies your debating skills.

As you know, Dave, it is common place when a dogmatic person proclaims to the world, e.g., that "God authorizes and is pleased with the use of musical devices in worship"; etc.; even with no scriptural evidence to back up the claim.

You, for one, would and does boldly make such a proclamation. That's why my question was:
"Next time, why don't you ask God if He really needs the Pope's CHOIR BOYS or your Worship Leader's PRAISE TEAM. "
It is a valid question, Dave. What's the hesitancy? Perhaps, you don't need to know what God thinks of man's brilliant idea? Or, wouldn't it be conclusive that if the "Worship Leader" has a "Praise Team," that God needs that CHOIR?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.230.16

Re: Still: The Pope's CHOIR BOYS = the Progressive's PRAISE TEAM

November 2 2010, 8:33 AM 

Donnie wrote to Dave: "I'm glad you mentioned: 'Name calling [sic], slander, reviling and statements that do not have anything to do with the discussion.' Why? That remark typifies your debating skills."

As AM wrote to Dave in another thread, "You have no desire to promote good and help others learn and are shallow with you responses."

AMEN! I couldn't have said it better.

 
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Donnie
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Making It Up As You Go

November 2 2010, 9:28 AM 

Donnie, with all that rambling and amid your incoherent response I did get this from you....."As you know, Dave, it is common place when a dogmatic person proclaims to the world, e.g., that "God authorizes and is pleased with the use of musical devices in worship"; etc.; even with no scriptural evidence to back up the claim."

My question is....whom might be the dogmatic person that you are speaking of, and please, since you put it in quotation marks, let us know where and when that dogmatic person made the quote?
happy.gif

Go vote Donnie!

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Uh Oh!!!

November 2 2010, 10:21 AM 

I am Donnie now?
Please don't put that one on me.
Please!!!

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Ha!

November 2 2010, 2:38 PM 

You do have a sense of humor Donnie. MTV in your future?

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Uh Oh!!!

November 2 2010, 5:47 PM 

You said, please, please don't.

But I said: please, please do. Now I know what "reverse psychology" really means.

Also, maybe Donnie wanted to make a statement: "Dave, You Are Making It Up As You Go."

And who might be that dogmatic person? Hmmm!!! I think you've got it figured out. For sure, it's not any conservative speaking.

Dave, I have just voted. AGAINST any "progressive" or "liberal" and against any anti-Constitution politician. Someone of that ideology in politics reminds me pretty much of the change agent operating in the church.

 
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Donne
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Not Good!

November 3 2010, 12:57 PM 

Donnie,
You would vote against someone like yourself? You are as liberal minded as any of those in the Obama administration.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Thank You!!!

November 3 2010, 6:27 PM 

Donnie's IP address looks like Daves.....hmmmm. Keep up the good work Donnie.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.222.141

Re: Thank You!!!

November 3 2010, 7:39 PM 

Try "Donnie's IP address looks like Dave's..." The apostrophe is still a part of English punctuation. happy.gif

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Thank YOU SOOOO MUCH

November 3 2010, 8:54 PM 

I LOVE YOU WILLIAM CRUMP.
My favorite english cop.

You do good ole boy.


Let's do lunch sometime, ok?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.157.38.235

Re: Thank YOU SOOOO MUCH

November 4 2010, 12:06 AM 

Lunch? That might be a consideration after Dave has completed an anger management course and, just for good measure, taken the course several times. It would be rather unpleasant to witness one of Dave's tantrums in person. happy.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.147

No praise teams.

November 4 2010, 12:19 AM 

Anyway, do you believe that as long as churches do not practice IM, that those with "praise teams" are o.k. with God (at least on this issue), or do you believe that acappella praise teams are also always wrong? It is my understanding from Brother Cruz that he bases it on 9 questions / issues, respectively.

No: the only PRAISE service is defined by Paul in Romans 15: that you with one mind and one mouth (glossa, tongue) use "that which is written for our learning" which He defines as "Scripture."

We would not see cantillation as singing in a tuneful sense but "rhythmic prose." The Jews might teach us how to do responsive reading to TEACH and learn something: Disciples don't do praise dities: they study the Word of the Master Teacher.

Praise singing (the Encomiast) is probably the world's oldest profession: men who were emotionally and sexually abnormal functioned as prophesiers or witch doctors.

Praise singing means that you "intend to bring about that which you praise." In other words, people PRAISE God so much because they have so little in the way of assurance. Praise singing is common in all superstitious societies and intended to "keep the gods from failing--again."

The Purpose Driving church is to TEACH and ADMONISH and COMFORT with Scripture (Rom 15 etal).

Simple singing has proven effective on very young people. Otherwise, history notes that it has the purpose of binding the tribe to the Alpha Male.

No one SANG in a tuneful sense until well into the Reformation when the clamouring Cathedral audience now operated by the State caused John Calvin to permit REWRITING some Psalms (only) in a metrical form. These were sung in UNISON which is the meaning of Romans 15: One mind and one mouth.

And things have gone downhill from then. The direct command is to use "that which is written" or "that which has been taught." You can take it from there and see how far Grace stretches before she snaps.

Praise Teams claim to be able to "lead you into the presence of God." That is, they claim the role of Jesus Christ and do "stand in the holy place" of church architecture. You DO, you MUST, you CANNOT AVOID giving all of your "heed" to the team and therefore you DO worship them.

There are no performing roles in the church: Jesus stood up to read the scheduled text and then decently SAT DOWN. The pulpit was to hold up the Bible and NOT the preacher.

All performance rhetoric or singing is defined by the word HYPOCRITE.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Re: Thank YOU SOOOO MUCH

November 4 2010, 11:03 AM 

I tell you what William. During our lunch I will hold off of the tantrum, if you will refrain from just being overall nasty and pessimistic. If the food is good, you can't make up an excuse to revile the waiter/waitress just because you want to be nasty and get out of paying the check. Never mind about the check......I will pay for the lunch.
Deal?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.153.233

Re: Thank YOU SOOOO MUCH

November 4 2010, 12:09 PM 

Dave, ole boy, the requirement that you enroll in an anger management course several times before ever having "lunch" with me is non-negotiable. I can't take the chance that you just might suddenly have a "nuclear melt-down," blow up like Chernobyl, and spray hatred and venom all over the restaurant, thus spoiling the peace and tranquility of everyone.

And as far as being "nasty and pessimistic," I can't even begin to hold a candle to you there, ole boy. You far surpass me in that category. You will always surpass not only me but everyone else in that category, son. That's just the way it is.


 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Thanks William

November 4 2010, 3:07 PM 

Speaking of a meltdown William, again, your last post makes my point better than anyone else could ever do.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.196.232

You're Welcome, Dave

November 4 2010, 6:14 PM 

If Dave wants to believe that and if it makes him feel good, who am I to deprive him of it? He must cling to something as a scapegoat, eh?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.141.177.53

Re: Praise Team (CHOIR) vs. the Congregation

November 10 2010, 5:44 PM 

The following series of posts is in response to the message by the same title or subject that was submitted by Richard on October 24, 2010, 10:47 PM. I say "series" because he addressed a number of specific issues, each of which needs to be discussed or responded to as time will permit. I'm not sure of the best way to cover this series -- whether or not to discuss every specific issue individually or to discuss some of related issues together or to simply begin discussing and see what happens as we go further.

(Beforehand, thank you, Richard, for the entire post, thus, reviving some very important issues that we seem to have forgotten. I'm not certain I completely understand your remark as follows: "I can honestly say that your point of view is the reason I didn't attend worship services for many, many years." Perhaps, you can elaborate on that one a bit more.)
  1. The "Praise Team" and performance; campfire songs; song leader vs. choir director [a broader title is "worship leader"]; microphones; lifting "holy" hands; clapping;
  2. Keith Lancaster and his music;
  3. The "five mythical acts of worship";
  4. Salvation by grace through faith.
I may briefly touch on "the acts of worship" when I respond to the "Praise Team" issue. For now, I'd like to address the fourth item first. The reason for this is that I have already addressed the "grace" issue before -- it will just be a matter of changing the HTML code that is no longer supported.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.141.177.53

Re: Praise Team (CHOIR) vs. the Congregation

November 10 2010, 7:04 PM 

This post is in response to Glen Gearhart's post, "Salvation by grace plus works" (September 3 2007, 10:55 PM). The original thread: "I was just surfing for c of c and found this."

Issue 4: "Salvation By Grace Through Faith"

Statement: To say that works are necessary for salvation is a serious heresy, because it basically says that Christ's death on the cross is not good enough to completely save you. 1 John chapter 5 clearly states that you can know that you're saved. Paul makes it very clear in Romans, Galatians, and Titus that good works come as a result of salvation, but do not play a part in salvation.

Response:
There must be a line of demarcation drawn between two separate occurrences or events: (1) CONVERSION and (2) Christian living AFTER conversion. Unless we are able to make that distinction, the discussions and disagreements regarding the issue of "grace plus works" will never end. I honestly would find it appalling for anyone to even suggest or think or believe that Christ's death on the cross is not enough to completely save anyone.

Of course, when one outside of Christ comes to know the truth and becomes a Christianthis being the conversion processall his past sins are forgiven. Romans 3:23-25 clearly explains this"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."

As one can see, the conversion prospect is NEVER required BEFOREHAND to do/produce "good works" or "works of righteousness." One can be the world's worst criminal prior to conversion. Is he required to do good works before he repents and is baptized IN ORDER TO receive redemption or forgiveness of sins in the blood of Christ? Of course, not!!!! (So, Glen, I will have to agree with you that good works are NOT necessary for salvation but on one conditionSALVATION in reference to CONVERSION.) I think that when "conversion" is not in the equation, the expression "works of righteousness" being necessary or not necessary for salvation becomes nebulous to the mind that doesn't understand where they [the good works] should belong.

I agree that, according to I John, as you said, " you can know that you're saved." In fact, Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly explains this "For by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

However, and speaking of the second eventwhat occurs AFTER conversionthe book of I John also emphasizes the significance of: walking in the light, keeping His word, keeping His commandments. Does "keeping His commandments" not imply obedience as expected of Christians according to Heb. 5:8-9? Christ learned obedience and became the author of salvation to those that OBEY him. Doesn't obedience imply "doing good works or works of righteousness"?

Theologians often make the mistake by not understanding the contrast or subsequence in Ephesians 2:8-9 [already quoted above] AND Ephesians 2:10"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto [TOWARD] good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Please notice the word "FOR" at the beginning of verse 10. Verses 8 and 9 speak of the CONVERSION event; verse 10 refers to what is expected of the converted in Christian living. THE CHRISTIAN is to do good worksthis speaks much more than good works being just the effect of salvation (conversion). There are numerous passages that support the necessity for the Christian to OBEY His commands to do good works.

While the Holy Scripture does not suggest that good works or works of righteousness are to be substituted for the blood of Christ in cleansing us from sins, nonetheless, we are commanded to OBEY. And what do you think would be the consequence of NOT obeying God's commands? John 5:28-9"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.."
Statement: James talks about good works that result from salvation. In other words, a truly saved person will do good works, while when Paul talks of works he means those futile efforts of a lost man to justify himself before God. Neither James nor Paul ever say that salvation is by grace plus works. In fact Paul adamantly says works and grace are mutually exclusive.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace; otherwise work is no more work.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us (past tense indicates we are saved if we trust Christ), by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

If we trust in our works to save us, then we can't be assured of salvation. That's the problem with a grace plus works salvation. But look at the following verses.

1 John 5:11-13 For this is the record that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life....

Can it be any clearer than that?


Response:
Again, CONVERSION is the salvation event during which an individual is redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and begins NEWNESS OF LIFE. The Christian receives eternal life in the sense that it is a promise or an inheritance. ["I am destined to inherit 2 million dollars when I reach the age of 75. Please, don't let me die before then." sad.gif ] Numerous passages support the truth that everlasting life will be rewarded to the faithful in the end:
  • I John 2:25 -- "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."
  • Jude 1:21 -- "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto [TOWARD] eternal life."
  • Titus 3:7 -- "That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
  • Eternal life is an inheritance -- Mark 10:17; Luke 10:25; 18:18; etc.
  • Mark 10:30 -- "But he shall receive and in the world to come eternal life."
  • Titus 1:2 -- "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"
  • Titus 3:7 -- "That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
  • Romans 6:22 -- "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."
  • James 1:12 -- "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."
  • Rev. 2:10 -- " be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
While doing good works or works of righteousness does not forgive sins (because only the blood of Christ does and can), still the New Testament is the plenary authority in directing Christians to obeying the commands of our Lord.

The second chapter of James clearly emphasizes that contrary to many theologians' claim that faith produces good works, faith may not necessarily produce good works. Consider the following verses:
[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
In summary, grace is God's part and His offer for man's redemption in the blood of Christ is available to anyone who wants to accept that offer. When one is ready to accept God's free gift of salvation, never is he commanded to produce good works or works of righteousness prior to conversion. (As previously mentioned, the world's worst criminal can be saved.)

In Christian living and journey, faith is dead without good works. He matures and grows and still sins. But the Lord is still faithful and just to forgive his confessed sins and cleanse him from all unrighteousness (I John 1:9).

 
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Allana James
(no login)
205.143.223.135

Re: Praise Team (CHOIR) vs. the Congregation

November 29 2012, 1:42 PM 

you people are ridiculous.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

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The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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