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Question About 2 Churches Of Christ (Nashville and Africa)

October 22 2010 at 5:54 PM
Sonny  (no login)
from IP address 99.186.93.107

BELOW ARE 2 CHURCHES WE MAY NEED TO ADD TO THE FOUL AND INFAMOUS "WALL OF SHAME".

Since a few brothers on this site have about as much intolerance and disdain for praise teams as they do IM, I wonder if you believe the Inner-City Church of Christ in Nashville is in right standing with God (or is a church of shame)? They do not have instruments, but do have a praise team of 4 men who stand with microphones on stage each Sunday morning.

Also, there is a congregation in Zambia that allows all the children (and just the children) to sing "Jesus Loves Me" and other songs in front of the congregation as part of Sunday worship. Is this acceptable or unacceptable worship?

If your answer is negative, you might want to look into that one and take concerned members globally.

-Sonny

 
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AuthorReply
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.22

Get help.

October 22 2010, 9:46 PM 

Get help.

You don't know the meaning of ekklesia or synagogue. You can do anything honest or moral outside of the congregation and most churches let little children sing publically. We worry about GROWD UP MEN who want to do that.

When we were children we acted like children but when we became MEN we put asside things like singing, clapping, dancing and wearing funny hats in public: someone might call the gender Police.

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
......All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
......baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
......and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Now Jesus DID NOT command us to TEACH SINGING AND DANCING. He is the Master and we are the DISCIPLE. Master teaches, disciples sit down and shut up.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Get help.

October 22 2010, 11:30 PM 

Right on, Ken.

Some adults have not outgrown certain childish behavioral patterns. Some adults have not done childish actions in a while but have reverted to those actions for whatever reason -- to be in vogue, I suppose.

Know what? "Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:14; Luke 18:16).

I do not believe that little children would cause the church to divide.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

4 men standing with microphones on stage

October 22 2010, 11:06 PM 

(1) Is there one leading singing already but is incapable without the help of 4-men "Praise Team"?

(2) Do the 4 men use the microphones because it is such a large crowd that they cannot be heard? Or...

(3) Do the 4 men use the microphones so that they can perform better? And...

(4) Do the 4 men have to be on stage so that their performance can be seen and heard?

(5) Do the 4 men do a good job of imitating the performers in Charismatic/Pentecostal Churches -- the way they hold their microphones with their antics and movements on stage, etc.?

(6) Do the 4 men have the natural ability to induce or stimulate the crowd to rhythmically clap while singing a very upbeat "praise" song?

(7) Do the 4 men (since instruments are "forbidden") do a good job simulating or emulating the sounds [or noises] of musical instruments?

(8) Do the 4 men sit down and allow the congregation to sing reverently when it sings "Holy, Holy, Holy" or "Take Time to Be Holy" or [wait ... they sing only happy, jolly "praise songs"]?

(9) Performance ... performance ... performance is the name of the game!!!

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: 4 men standing with microphones on stage

October 23 2010, 2:02 AM 

Brother Cruz,

Are you communicating or suggesting through these questions that perhaps praise teams are not always bad? If so, I am thrilled.

-Sonny

 
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AM
(no login)
173.185.23.247

Re: 4 men standing with microphones on stage

October 23 2010, 1:13 PM 

Praise teams are good for those congregations who choose not to worship God the the way Jesus worshiped God. Why are those that are thrilled about what is new to them in worship, unable or reluctant to point out how it was with Jesus?

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

AM - THUS, MY POINT ... TO BE CONSISTENT

October 23 2010, 4:45 PM 

If this site has as much disdain and intolerance for PT, then be consistent and add churches with them to "The Wall", starting with the Inner-City C of C in Nashville. And where is children singing in front by themselves authorized by Jesus in Scripture? Thus, we must label this a "chorus" that is a "denominational practice", so the church in Zambia needs to be added to "The Wall".

And as stated on the other post/thread, this is only the beginning if we want to be serious and consistent about Romans 16:17 (if division is based on anything DIFFERENT or for which Scripture is SILENT). Add all those churches that go to Winterfest (actually brings people together, like the Inner-City Church), and all the churches that ever clap their hands, use the NIV, have a children's worship, those that have VBS with songs, skits and puppets, etc. etc. etc.

Let's at least have some unity and consistency about who we mark and who gets their name on "The Wall".

-Sonny

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.13.160

Re: AM - THUS, MY POINT ... TO BE CONSISTENT

October 23 2010, 7:13 PM 

I have the feeling that Sonny is obsessed with the "Wall of Shame"; it's getting under his skin.

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: AM - THUS, MY POINT ... TO BE CONSISTENT

October 24 2010, 3:20 PM 

Brother Crump,

I was having a good day until reading your diagnosis that I am obsessed / have an obsession. Now my day has turned cold and gray. But I am optimistic tomorrow will be warm and sunny.

-Sonny

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.139.159

Re: AM - THUS, MY POINT ... TO BE CONSISTENT

October 24 2010, 11:18 PM 

Sonny, if you allow your days to turn "cold and gray" because of someone's less-than-sunny opinion of you, then that opinion apparently hits home and you believe it. Were I to fall to pieces every time someone voiced an opinion of me that I didn't like, I'd live in one perpetually cold, gray world. Thank goodness my days are, metaphorically speaking, warm and sunny. happy.gif

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

facetious

October 26 2010, 9:38 PM 

Brother Crump,

Apparently you could not tell I was being facetious. My day was not cold and gray as a result of your comments. sad.gif I realize this may disappoint you.

-Sonny


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.149.157.138

Re: Facetious

November 11 2010, 10:42 AM 

People are not always being facetious when they use metaphors to describe their days. However, since Sonny admitted that he was only being facetious about having a "cold and gray" day, perhaps we should only take Sonny's remarks with a grain of salt. That is to say, given Sonny's past performance on this board, it appears that he is telling us not to take anything he has said or will say very seriously. That should be fairly easy to do. happy.gif

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Praise Team (CHOIR) vs. the Congregation

October 23 2010, 5:53 PM 

Sonny,

You might say "that perhaps 'praise teams' are not always bad." But let me qualify and, hopefully, you will see why.

The expression "Praise Team" is creepy in a spiritual sense when it is identified as a group of musicians that sets itself apart from the congregation. Whether or not the elite club of singers is on stage or grouped together occupying the first two front rows, when they hold those individual microphones, they become "suspects." They are bound to PERFORM.

But wait. I have heard the "claim" that the elite [semi-professional] singers have the duty or responsibility to teach new [Charismatic campfire] "praise" songs to the "congregation." Let's do a little math here. If on the average the "Worship Leader" and his/her "Praise Team" sing 11 "praise" songs per week's assembly, that amounts to over 500 new songs to learn per year. That's staggering.

Do the money-making, contemporary, pop-rock "Christian" musical artists [Michael Smith, Amy Grant, Chris Tomlin, Charlie Peacock, et al] popularize that many "I Worship You, Lord" [clappy-clappy] songs in a year? OK, maybe, that's an exaggeration.

Let me say it in another way. Does the "congregation" really need the Praise Team [the CHOIR] to teach 11 new songs at every gathering? If not, then, why do the Praise Team members still show up and let their presence known, after the congregation has learned the "new" songs?

Why are the "Worship Leader" and his musicians of the post-modern age so forgetful of times in the past when the singing leader did not need the CHOIR to co-lead in the singing of a new hymn?

Oh, don't forget that the Praise Team members, both men and WOMEN, are co-worship leaders. So, in essence, now there are WOMEN worship leaders.

Well, back to the issue "that perhaps praise teams are not always bad." Praise Teams are not bad ... contingent on the following:


  • Get the church money refunded--those individual microphones can be pretty expensive, especially when the elite team has 8 or 16 or 24 or more men and WOMEN members. Or...
  • Donate the microphones to Charismatic/Pentecostal groups to help intensify the noise of their drums, trumpets, etc.
  • The elite singers should not be on stage at any time so that the congregation does not see them do their childish actions and whatever antics.
  • The elite singers should not be on stage at any time so that they can not be seen to encourage or initiate rhythmic clapping [rehearsed "joy"].
  • The elite singers do not have to occupy the first two front rows with their microphones -- the congregation will see and know when the team is performance-ready.
  • There are more conditions...

Notice the word "PERFORMANCE." Such an ugly word, something God detests, when He is to be worshiped with reverence and awe.

 
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Richard
(no login)
97.73.64.146

Re: Praise Team (CHOIR) vs. the Congregation

October 24 2010, 10:47 PM 

I haven't responded to anything on this site in a very long time. In fact, until tonight, I haven't even looked at this site in over a year. Now that I'm on here again(must have had a mental breakdown) I see that nothing has really changed.

I know this is your site and you have your point of view that you are trying to get out to the uneducated masses, and I can honestly say that your point of view is the reason I didn't attend worship services for many, many years. Ken doesn't believe in any kind of singing in the assembly, although there are examples of the early Christians singing. You don't believe in PT's, and I agree with you to a point. I don't want them up on stage either, it's to much for show if it's like that. I have no problem with it if they are all sitting in their regular seats.

Here's what I think about your position Donny. You are probably a really good frustrated singer who doesn't like the new songs. I understand where you are coming from, I don't like a lot of them either. In fact, until I learned a few of them, I used to complain all the time about "camp songs" being led in worship service. I am a song leader myself, and according to a lot of people, a pretty good one. I've learned some of the newer songs and I regularly mix them in with the older songs; different people want different songs sang during worship service. I do put some soul in my singing and it comes straight from my heart. I am not a choir director, but a song leader, and singing moves my soul. I'd hate to lead singing in your church because you would probably think I'm performing, which I wouldn't be, but you'd think it none the less.

I don't have a problem with miked singers, as long as they are sitting in their normal seats and not turned up in volume enough to drown out the crowd. The church of Christ used to be known for our four part harmony and that is what I enjoy singing. Yes, I said enjoy and enjoyment is not a sin. In some churches, the singing is much better with miked singers because there are people in the audience that will sing the four part harmony if they could only hear their parts. I don't have a problem with women holding a microphone from their seats, we let women sing all the time. I totally agree with your stance on having a bunch of them on stage doing dances or whatever. But raising Holy hands to God is not a sin and neither is clapping. You can't show me where that is wrong, don't even go there with me. We are to speak to one another in psalms an hymns and making melody in our heart to the Lord. We are also told that we are admonishing one another through our singing. In fact, if you'll read the ONLY real example of a worship service over in Corinthians, you'll see that the writer talks about "if anyone has a song, let him sing it". Inferring that there was a solo involved.

I agree with you about some things and in other things I think you need to "grow up" and move on. Mr. Sublett, don't waste your time replying to this message, I will not read it. You don't even believe in an kind of singing, and in that you are wrong. I know you will not admit it, but you are.

I think the worst thing that has happened to our singing in our churches is the advent of Keith Lancaster and his music. I know Keith personally, and he is an outstanding song writer/musician. The thing is, his type of singing became popular before he put the music out there for the masses. I'm appalled and amazed at all the churches that have embraced his type of music...our singing has suffered for it....I've told him that to his face. We've lost the ability to sing four part harmony and that is the only reason I advocate miked singers. I don't want you to think that I dislike Keith in any way, I think he is a fine man and I even sang on one of his praise and harmony albums. I do not like his vocal percussion groups and have talked to him about them, nor do I want that kind of music in any worship service I'm a part of. I don't think it's wrong, I just don't like it.

Don't get on me about the five mythical acts of worship. I'm a 5th generation c of C boy and I know the doctrine just as well as any of you, probably better, and that knowledge is what has lead me to believe that it's wrong. We are saved by grace through faith, not by some mythic acts of worship and certainly not by anything we do.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Praise Team (CHOIR) vs. the Congregation

October 25 2010, 12:36 AM 

Richard,

Welcome back. Thanks so much for your message(s) [quite a few points worth discussing or studying]. I would hate to promise for fear that I may not be able to keep it. But I promise, anyway, to address the points you've brought up as soon as I get a chance. It may surprise you to "find out" that we may be in agreement for the most part.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.157.38.28

Re: Praise Team (CHOIR) vs. the Congregation

October 25 2010, 8:33 AM 

Richard wrote: "Don't get on me about the five mythical acts of worship. I'm a 5th generation c of C boy and I know the doctrine just as well as any of you, probably better, and that knowledge is what has lead me to believe that it's wrong. We are saved by grace through faith, not by some mythic acts of worship and certainly not by anything we do."

When Richard says the "five mythical acts of worship," I gather that he is referring to the singing, preaching/studying the Word, giving of our means, praying, and taking the Lord's Supper, all of which are mentioned in the New Testament. Strange, I didn't think any part of the New Testament was "mythical," but I suppose that, in this postmodern age, some Christians have changed their mind about that. Next, I wonder if Richard will tell us that, since we are "saved by grace through faith," then Jesus' requirements for salvation are also "mythical."

BTW, Jesus' requirements for salvation are: hearing the Gospel, believing the Gospel, repenting of sins, confessing Jesus as Lord before mankind, being baptized for remission of sins, and leading a life of obedience to Him by serving Him and doing good for mankind. These requirements should be very familiar to a "5th generation c of C boy." They are all mentioned in the New Testament, and there is an entire thread on this board devoted to that subject, titled "Christ's Requirements for Salvation." I suggest that Richard read and study the lead post in that thread.


 
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Richard
(no login)
97.73.64.148

Re: Praise Team (CHOIR) vs. the Congregation

October 27 2010, 12:08 AM 

Dr, Crump, I understand that baptism is essential. In this you'll get no argument from me. I also understand that salvation doesn't include once saved always saved. What I have a problem with is mere men imposing so called "acts of worship" that are barely mentioned in the bible. Preaching is surely not an act of worship, studying isn't an act of worship either. While both of these things are very necessary for our spiritual growth, they are not in themselves "acts of worship" in their practice.

I used to smoke cigarettes until I finally understood the meaning of Rom 12:1 which says "to offer your bodies as a living sacrifices holy and pleasing to God---this is your spiritual act of worship." That act of worship is scriptural and is the whole reason I stopped puffing cigarettes almost 3 years ago. Now some people may say that I took that out of context, but for me it wasn't. Dr. Crump, how healthy of a life style do you lead? Are you a big fat guy, or are you someone who really presents his body as a living sacrifice? I wonder if I could pick at you a little for not conforming to this spiritual act of worship? Now you may say that I have taken this way out of context, but I can say the same thing about a lot of things you hold true and dear to your heart. I believe you and many people like you have taken lots of things out of context and made things fit into a neat little checklist you can check off in order to feel good about your salvation. It's just like Americans to make everything Corporate and have to have checklist and little scorecards to check off.

As for singing, I can say that is in act of worship, it's mentioned in several places and is pretty specific. The Lords Supper isn't really that specific except for in 1 Corinthians where it talked about them eating a meal together. The writer was condemning the church because not everyone was getting something to eat or drink while others were getting drunk and eating all the food without waiting on the others. I guess the thoughts in 1 Cor 11:17-22 means nothing to you at all; it doesn't fit in your neat little box on how worship should go. I suppose you also ignore women with short hair and men with long hair, that doesn't fit in your little box either I'm assuming.

James 1:27 says that"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." We can turn to the very next chapter where it talks about favoritism being forbidden, but most churches I've ever been too sure do favor folks such as yourself who is a doctor of whatever, or some muckety muck who has tons of money. Yes, I've seen the ugly side of "so-called" Christianity and it stinks. It seems to me you don't mind flaunting the Dr. Crump title, yes I know you went and earned that title, but I also earned the title of Mr. yet I don't demand you call me that, to anyone I'm simply Richard....I don't get caught up in titles, although I could and have every right to do so by the laws of man. Your title of Dr. doesn't impress me and surely has nothing to do with the content of your character or by what authority you spit out your venom.

I know what the requirements for salvation are every bit as well as you, probably more so than you because it seems you take so many things out of context. You spout out the doctrine that suits you and totally ignore whats important. It is because of the venom from people like you that so many people have the left the Church of Christ and indeed all forms of organized worship. People are now more interested in Christianity, not churchianity. There are a whole lot more people now that can read and discern things for themselves that do not need the likes of you shouting down or poo-pooing their ideas and or beliefs they hold dear to their hearts.

One final shot to you, and it's going to really hurt you because it's scriptural and is in black and white just as plain as baptism. Ephesians 2:8. This is the most ignored passage of scripture in the bible to those who claim to be of the "one true church". For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God-not by WORKS, so that no one can boast." Yes, I know we have to do good works to show our faith, but our salvation is a GIFT from GOD, the bible says it's so, and you and I are not going to do enough work to justify our soul salvation. Those 5 mythical acts of worship are in the bible, very vaugely, and they are not what is going to justify you or save you on judgement day.

Christianity is a very personal thing, we are told to work out our own soul salvation with fear and trembling. You also need to read Rom 12, 13,& 14...These are some more very ignored passages of scriptures in the old 'hardline" churches of Christ. Hey, I'm still a church of Christ man, so is my family, but I'm not the type that's going to condemn others over matters that are of opinion and not scriptural.

Dr. Crump. for you own good(and I've read many of your posts) you need to back off the sarcasm and the absolute hateful tone of your remarks. I'm saying this in love and in concern for your soul. I don't know who you are, or what you think you are other than what I read on this website. You come across as very arrogant and like a know it all, nothing you ever said ever makes me think differently. You are the epitome of why the church of Christ is dying....people are far to educated these days, and too knowledgable about things to be brow beaten into submission. Your brand of Christianity isn't Christianity to me at all, it's about the occult and the control of all those you come into contact with. People like you are the reason people like me have stayed away from churches. We've always wanted to be there, but could never live up to the self-righeteous standards the "chose few" leaders wanted us to live by. Come to find out all these years later, that the powers that be aren't any different than anyone else.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.26.155

Re: Praise Team (CHOIR) vs. the Congregation

October 27 2010, 10:31 AM 

The simple truth irks many people, and to retaliate, they erroneously regard those who post the truth as being "hateful" and full of "sarcasm." The truth does indeed do strange things to people.

How did the first-century Christians worship when they assembled together? They heard and studied the Word of God, sang hymns, prayed together, took the Lord's Supper together, and contributed of their means for the needy. There was also the opportunity for baptism. The congregants were encouraged to live their lives doing good to mankind as well. Thus, worship was simple and unadorned. What the first-century Christians did isn't called "acts of worship" as such in the New Testament, but what they did is indeed essential to worship. What else are we to do when we worship, unless people think that "worship" must now include pulpit comedy with amusing anecdotes and constant hilarity, drama/musical productions, the showcasing of singing groups and instrumental soloists to the accolades of men, skits, puppet shows, and all the other worldly goings-on present in postmodern churches? These latter parallel the pizzazz of theaters, yet not one word of them is mentioned in the New Testament.

We must follow New Testament example and put away the idea that we can do anything in worship just because "God didn't say not to." BTW, if something is "barely mentioned" in the New Testament, or mentioned only ONE time, are we to ignore it? Must something appear a million times in the New Testament in order for it to be drummed into our heads, before we even remotely consider following it?

 
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Jimmy Joe
(no login)
69.138.47.3

I concur

October 27 2010, 9:55 PM 

Dr. Crump, You made two points that I made a few years ago on this site except you stopped a little too soon. I agree that if one is to live and worship as the first century Christians, then do so. How is one to determine where it is appropriate to stop following the examples of the first century Christians? Could you please give me your opinion on Acts 2:44-47. Is it time to give up the material, unnecessary inanimate objects (SUV's, Large flat screen HD TVs,etc.)that most of us own and follow the example in Acts 2:45?

That was point one. Point two. How many times does one have to be given an example in scripture for it to be followed? If one time is sufficient then give me your opinion on John 13:12-17. Please don't use the back in those days and for the Apostles only excuse. I realize it was a symbolic gesture to show submission. So is one time enough.

Straight answered opinions would be appreciated without the sarcasm.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.146.141.52

Re: I concur

October 28 2010, 12:06 AM 

We are to follow the New Testament doctrine, for that does not change. Living with modern inventions has nothing to do with doctrine, unless we use those inventions to pervert and abuse New Testament doctrine. Apparently some folks think that worshipping as the first-century Christians did means we are also to live as they did, dress as they did, eat the exact same foods as they did, have the same jobs that they did; ditch electricity, cars, indoor plumbing, computers, cell phones, antibiotics, vaccines; in short, ditch everything invented, developed, or discovered after the first century. Yet all of those are material things that have nothing to do with New Testament doctrine as such.

If all Christians lived in communes, I suppose we would be dividing our means and distributing them evenly for the good of all, as the first-century Christians did. American society is more individualistic on the whole. If you feel the need to join a commune, however, go ahead. Nothing wrong with it. I'm sure that doesn't give you the answer you wanted. That might prompt you to give a sarcastic reply, and then again it might not. No matter. If you don't, somebody else will. It goes with the territory. happy.gif

As for washing feet, there are groups who do just that. Maybe that practice should be revived throughout all of Christianity.

What sarcasm? There are others on this board who are "experts" in hyperbole, insults, and sarcastic responses. They know who they are. happy.gif

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
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