|October 31 2010, 9:57 PM |
Re: Interesting Indeed
|October 31 2010, 11:01 PM |
So you don't believe that with Jesus you clearly understood everything about Him?
I did not state what I understood or did not understand about Jesus. That is two times you have stated things I did not state. I can see where you could easily be mislead into believing things that are not rooted in the truth.
To believe that one clearly understands God would be an indication of narcissism. The most obvious examples of narcissism are found in: CEO's of large corporations, Hollywood Actors and ministers of large churches, of which I am not.
Clarification for AM
|November 1 2010, 12:34 AM |
AM, you say you did not state what you understood about Jesus?
Did you not say...."I am sure in days to come we will understand why Jesus did not use musical instruments to worship God."
When you said that, I took it to CLEARLY mean that Jesus was easily understood to those who followed Him. Do we need to understand WHY Jesus did not use musical instruments? That is the whole point. It DID NOT MATTER with Jesus. If He didn't make it an issue, why should we?
That is what is clearly understood about Jesus. You made the point without knowing it. Nothing new AM. People do that every day. It doesn't have to be a narcissistic tendency to know what God is thinking......we have 66 books that speak of God thoroughly to let us KNOW how He loved, rebuked, disciplined mankind.
Do we know what God will do in 5 minutes or even in 5 seconds? Of course not.
|October 31 2010, 10:26 PM |
Here is a great example of proof-texting. You take a verse "out of context" to "prove" a point that the text is not actually saying.
1 Corinthians 13:1 - "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."
The context of this verse is not using these instruments for worship, but just in general, whereas Psalm 150:5 is in the context of worship.
"praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals."
Concerning Psalm 150:5
|October 31 2010, 11:54 PM |
Just wondering why you referenced that particular passage as being in the context of worship. Isn't the issue with instrumental music associated with its use in the assembly of the saints during singing?
-- David was not dealing with singing in the gathering of saints.
-- It was David, the MUSICIAN, who invented instruments of music (Amos 6:5).
-- It was David (not God) who ordained musical instruments while king of Israel (II Chron. 29:27).
-- "Praise him with" came from David, the skilled musician, not God.
Would you clarify your stance that Psalm 150 is somehow giving New Testament Christians permission or authority to "worship" God with musical devices? Sounds like a faulty assumption on man's part.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Re: Concerning Psalm 150:5
|November 1 2010, 12:32 AM |
Most people must go outside the New Testament to "justify" the use of IM in Christian worship; either that or resort to the fallacious excuse of "God didn't say not to," a phrase that appears nowhere in the New Testament.
|November 1 2010, 11:22 AM |
The statement was not about worship as it was an example of how Paul viewed an instrument. Paul could have described the worthlessness of people's actions without love as a "cart that has square wheels". Yet Paul used the lowest imaginable abstract image he could to describe those with out love. The point is Paul did not have a favorable opinion of the noise of instruments. Why the question about worship and instruments?
If Paul viewed musical instruments as a God given tool that actually promoted good and the love of God, would he have used such a derogatory comment about the noise they make? Honestly nowhere in the Bible will be found a passage that says God spoke through a trumpet or a clarinet......
Christ Defined, Jesus Refined the ultimate meaning of HYPOCRITE
|November 1 2010, 2:19 PM |
It is true: the most perfect example Paul could find to ridicule speaking in tongues other people did not understand was the use of "lifeless Instrumentals." Lifeless means "without breath." His use of "carnal weapon" has the same "making war" image: "Hoplon" identifies a round bronze shield which made "clanging brass" sounds.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 126.96.36.199 on Nov 1, 2010 2:21 PM|
Try Doing Better
|November 1 2010, 8:03 PM |
If not a clanging cymbal, then what? Please come up with a better analogy than Paul?
Re: Try Doing Better
|November 1 2010, 9:39 PM |
Where do you find scripture to argue my point? If you do not find something that states a cymbal is good for worship, other than it is your and your peacher's preference, I will not converse with you any longer. You have no desire to promote good and help others learn and are shallow with you responses.
I will give you a hint- the only other places in the Bible where cymbals are mentioned are in the Old Testament. Well before our Savior and Paul were on the earth.
Reply To All 3 Brothers
|November 2 2010, 6:06 PM |
Is not every writing in Scripture by man? (Why the distinction of David's writings versus all others?)
Psalm 150 is not a psalm of David so is it o.k. to be in Scripture?
Please clarify your position on Scripture and whether David's writings should be in Scripture. (Then we can discuss interpretative methods. If you do not believe the Psalms of David, or any psalms for that matter, are part of authorized Scripture, then there is no point in discussing interpretation of them in relation to the New Testament.)
It is true that some of David's Psalms were in the context of him worshipping God privately. Based on Ephesians 5:19, I am not sure if this permits their use or not, whether with or without instrumental accompaniment, but would this point be valid for all psalms? Some Psalms begin with the note: "For the director of music" followed by something like "with stringed instruments" or "for flutes". Does this not mean their intention was for an assembly of worshippers?
Lastly, if you believe that God permitted instrumental worship reluctantly in the Old Testament (though established by a man, David), then do you believe his grace would permit it today by man? (This is a serious and respectful question. I do want your thoughts. Thanks.)
I have never used the phrase "God didn't say not to" pertaining to this matter. I do fall into the other category you are criticizing - I have used and do use the Old and New Testament Scriptures combined to arrive at doctrinal beliefs and positions. My understanding and perspective is that Paul tells Timothy that all Scripture is inspired by God and useful for doctrine.
I did not know the issue with instruments was whether God spoke through them? I don't know anyone who says this. Secondly, you did not say anything persuading in your refute of this being an example of proof-texting but actually showing that it is since you admit it is not in the context of worship. Last, you say this shows Paul's "unfavorable opinion" of instruments (I guess you mean whether for worship or anything?) - well... in 1 Corinthians 14:7-8 he does NOT speak of them unfavorably, but says they (flute, harp and trumpet) must make a distinction in notes/tune to be profitable. The context in both of these (1 Cor. 13:1 and 14:7-8) is speaking in tongues.
To all three,
What do you think Paul means by the following 3 distinct terms in Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 - psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs? (In contrast, 1 Corinthians only mentions "hymns" in 14:26.) I have wondered what is different about "spiritual songs" from the other two. Perhaps one of you three, or others on this forum have some helpful insight.
Secondly, do each of you interpret Paul's use of "psalms" as authorizing a Christian to sing Psalms in the Old Testament without instruments but not with them, or something else?
Grace and peace brothers.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Re: Reply To All 3 Brothers
|November 2 2010, 6:49 PM |
I never explicitly said that Sonny used the phrase "God didn't say not to." Plenty of liberal dissenters in the Church do, however, to "justify" IM in Christian worship. Sonny shouldn't take things so personally.
Re: Reply To All 3 Brothers
|November 3 2010, 12:02 AM |
Yes, I assumed you were making a generalization based on others and also assumed you know it does not discredit my statements about worship.
I humbly believe my view is based on Scripture. I think we are to view Scripture holistically - that this is how Christians did for the first few centuries. I appreciate any thoughts you can offer that differ and challenge me (iron sharpening iron) and cause me to think. I love substantive spiritual conversations. Like you, I also enjoy fun and wit and some light-hearted
thrown in the mix. Ultimately, I like talking about the grace of God and hope found in Christ Jesus.
Do you have any input on my final 2 questions (above)?
As I said, I love substantive conversations, so feel free to challenge me intellectually.
|November 3 2010, 11:47 AM |
There are those here, as you have noticed, are continually on the defensive. Some, who call themselves conservatives with their style of presentation, have to be continually defensive. It is in their nature, unfortunately. They believe that the doctrine of Christ is something made up of words only, and not of an unseen Faith and Love. They can deal with what they can see and hold, but not of the unseen.
That is why they have a zeal for arguments. Dealing with love makes them agitated and restless.
Christ warned about this Himself.
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
On top of that, Sonny, they use what they like, from the Scriptures, and disregard what doesn't apply to their way of thinking.
Re: Reply To All 3 Brothers
|November 9 2010, 9:50 PM |
1 Corinthians 14:7-8
7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8For if the trumpet gives an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
First of all, Thank you for your serious comment and thought provoking questions. These two verses, as you mentioned, appear to be analogies that pertain to speaking in tongues. And with that context, if one speaks without distinct sound (without familiar speech) or speaks in an uncertain sound (with understandable speech), how would one know what is being communicated. In this chapter, I believe he is pointing out the situation with speaking in tongues. What and how does an instrument communicate? I do not see where there is a positive comment about instruments. Please explain how you saw that to be a positive comment about IM.
My comment about Pauls unfavorable opinion of musical instruments, I will try to make an analogy. You and I take communion at church and it is something we respect. If I were to try and tell someone that I thought something was worthless I would avoid comments that would speak to worthlessness of communion time. To represent that, I would never say the time I wait in an airport is as worthless as the wait for everyone else to finish communion. That would communicate a total disrespect of all that the communion is about. In like manner if a musical instrument is used for worship to God, would you mock or put down the value of the noise it made?
About the comment I made about God speaking though instruments. From my study about singing, I believe the early church may have practiced a form of antiphonal singing, which is a singing back and forth to each other. Singing was a form of relating the message to another. And I believe that the early hymns were composed to help other know what was in the Bible or give a message of God. Therefore those songs could not be played, the song would need to be verbalized. An instrument could not work for that cause.
Musical instruments are used to heighten the emotions. Close your eyes sometime and listen to a movie and see if you get a feeling from the tones. A good sound track is from the movie Jaws the music builds anticipation and fear without watching the video.
I whole heartedly believe Jesus did not heighten emotions to prove a point or lead someone to a better understanding of God by directing emotions. As Jesus was on the cross, he did not show unrestrained emotion. Jesus was always led by the spirit and never driven by emotions.
Re: Reply To All 3 Brothers
|November 10 2010, 12:36 AM |
First of all, ditto on the appreciation concerning a serious discussion and thought provoking words.
In answer to your request, in 1 Corinthians 14:8 Paul is saying that a trumpet is good/positive/helpful in battle "IF" it makes a distinct sound to let an army know if it needs to attack or retreat. Otherwise, it is useless. That is how I meant that it was a positive comment, though not about IM in worship. I was just referencing it to show you why I did not think your point in 13:1 was really a point Paul was making against instruments period in worship.
Concerning context, it would be "proof-texting" ON MY PART to use 1 Corinthians 14:7-8 to say that God condones IM in worship, just as it would to use 1 Cor. 13:1 as you did to say God does not, because the context of both is tongue-speaking. I believe Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 permit/authorize the singing of psalms both with and without instruments. I realize others and perhaps yourself will disagree. Contrary to what you may have read Brother Crump say is my position, I do not go with the position "God doesn't say not to". I actually believe God says to in the Old "AND" New Testament. (And understand, I have grown up C of C and still love the many positives to our heritage, but I have changed my view on some (not all) issues and interpretation of Scripture, like IM.)
I definitely understand your perspective though I do not completely agree. The communion explanation is definitely helpful in understanding your beliefs and I would never say you must worship with an instrument. Also, your beliefs about the antiphonal singing concept are valid. Furthermore, I believe that all historical documents support that the first 300 years or so of Christianity worship was without instruments. In the time of Christ and Paul the temple was instrumental and the synagogue was acappella. The early church "patterned" itself largely after the simplicity of the synagogue worship.
Similar to another one of your points, I have visited churches and seen where instruments can manipulate emotions. However, I have also visited churches where only an organ and later I believe a dulcimer was used or some type of violin (they said that in some ancient instrumental churches where they did not have a piano they sang songs like Amazing Grace with it) so they used it to accompany that song and it did not hinder myself and the congregation singing Amazing Grace. I actually was edified and encouraged by the simplicity of it and emphasis still being on the words while one instrument aided with the tune for singing.
Also, I have visited a community church on Saturday evenings some in the past (I do not anymore) to not take away from my Sunday worship but to see what they were about and to help my perspective for when I talk with or even teach someone who goes to one. Much of the band and IM was different from where I generally worship and I have my opinion and personal preferences, but I hesitate to say it is all unspiritual and unacceptable, as I do believe they are seeking to worship God with their heart, mind and soul. I do not think "all" emotion is bad, as God made us with emotions, but as I said earlier, everything is not about emotion and they can be manipulated. Hope this helps you understand my perspective, and that my perspective can be a blessing to you and your ongoing walk with God.
Finally, you seem like an honorable Christian with whom I am glad to converse with on the internet and have iron sharpen iron.
David's writings in the Scripture?
|November 3 2010, 6:42 PM |
I'm surprised that you would question my position on David's writings being in Scripture. [Let me just suppose that you wanted the discussion of instrumental music prolonged because it appears to be civil and, of course, we hope that Dave will try very hard to keep it that way. Does he keep his BP and pulse rate in check when he argues angrily? I wonder and worry.]
You brought up a number of questions in your post above. So, instead of repeating the questions, I'll try to briefly answer them (in any order):
Who in the New Testament era should "ordain musical instruments"? David, king of Israel and a skilled musician, ordained musical instruments (II Chron. 29:27)?
- Yes, David's writings, including Psalm 150, should be in Scripture, just as the following:
- Lying and murder recorded: Cain slew his brother and answered God's question: "Where is thy brother Abel?" (Gen. 4)
- Strange offering recorded: Nadab and Abihu died, when they offered strange fire before the LORD (Exo., Lev., Numbers).
- The Levitical PRAISE TEAM: The Levites with singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan appointed to sound with cymbals of brass (I Chron 15).
- CHOIR robe and old priesthood recorded: The Levites -- the singers ... with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them an hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets (II Chron. 5).
- Musical idolatry: Nebuchadnezzar and the golden image and worship with the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of music (Daniel 3).
- Mixture of burnt offerings [commanded by God] and musical instruments [not commanded by God] recorded: We find various references in II Chron. 23; II Cron. 29; etc.
- Scripture consists of writings concerning: history, government, biography, prophecy, poetry and songs, proverbs, letters and epistles, law, acts of man (both good and EVIL), etc.
So, just because all of these events and occurrences were recorded and are part of God's inspired Scripture, is the New Testament Christian entitled to pick and choose [commanded or not] whatever he wants to do that he considers "worship to God"?
- Great quote: "For the director of music...." Huh, that explains the "advent" of "The Worship Leader" and his "Praise Team" in the 21st century neo-church of Christ. But in the old dispensation, how did God's followers miss what was coming: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4:11). Wait, God forgot to include the 21st century "WORSHIP LEADER."
- Since King David was a skilled musician, I wonder if he was capable of singing while playing the flute or blowing the trumpet simultaneously? No, I would not equate David's private praise to the gathering of New Testament saints singing and mechanically operating musical devices concurrently.
- No, I do not believe "that God permitted instrumental worship reluctantly in the Old Testament." Did God reluctantly permit Nebuchanezzar to build a golden image and fall down and worship the golden image with "the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of music" (Daniel 3)? David [not God] invented musical instruments. David [not God] ordained muscial instruments.
- Therefore, it is illogical and fallacious to associate the operation of musical devices that is based on "God's permission" with God's grace.
- In regard to the "3 distinct terms in Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 - psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" and that I Cor. 14:26 mentions "hymns" only:
Well, there are numerous passages that mention "psalm(s)" ONLY but not "hymns" and "spiritual songs." The issue is that from numerous passages related to singing, musical instruments simply are not mentioned NOR USED.
Re: David's writings in the Scripture?
|November 3 2010, 11:55 PM |
1. The context of Daniel 3 is different from Psalm 150. Daniel 3 is idolatry, not because musical instruments are being played, but because of who/what is being worshipped - Nebuchadnezzar and his 90 foot gold statue. Psalm 150 and the other psalms with instruments are not idolatry because the musical instruments are being used to praise Jehovah God. Therefore, God IS against instrumental music THAT IS NOT PRAISING AND HONORING HIM.
2. You believe that the New Testament authorizes the singing of the psalms, yet the instrumental portion is not authorized (would be idolatry), yet this is exactly how some of them were originally sung. People in the church of Christ say the instrument is the heart. Well... the heart was still engaged in the Old Testament. Numerous psalms express the heart worshipping God in them, including some where instruments accompanied. BY THE WAY, ONE CAN WORSHIP ACAPPELLA AND NOT MAKE MELODY IN THEIR HEART. ALSO, EPH. 5:19 AND COL. 3:16 ARE NOT IN THE CONTEXT OF AN ASSEMBLY BUT DAILY CHRISTIAN LIVING. Nevertheless, how does any of this negate instrumental accompaniment since this is implied? It would be similar to saying (not an exact parallel, but similar) it is o.k. for you to have bread and wine but no longer use a container for the contents. Paul referencing psalms by itself implies the possibility of instrumental accompaniment.
3. If the passage in 2 Chronicles 29 is not o.k. with God, why didn't he have a prophet say so. In fact, it says David and His prophet Nathan permitted, and goes on to say God actually did as well "through them" in 2 Chronicles 29:25. Not sure how you get that to just be David and Nathan and not God. Furthermore, why does the New Testament commend David and reference him in a positive light more than any other Old Testament person? (A passage in Amos 6 you may or may not be familiar with is both misordered/worded/translated in the KJV and often taken out of context by people who take your position. This is like taking Daniel 3 out of context.)
4. I can see all of this, and I do not even practice instrumental music. I am just seeking truth period and not defending what I do or don't do.
5. If you personally do not worship with instruments, that is fine with God. What is not fine is promoting opinions to divide the body of Christ. This can also be said for those on the other end. If people are divided over it (either way), peace and mutual edication should be pursued in any discussions and teaching, per Romans 14:19 and many others.
6. Finally, I actually do not believe that it is impossible for you or others on this site to change their perspective, because I used to be dogmatic and zealous against any use of instruments. What began changing my mind was the inconsistencies I found among other anti IM Christians. For example, I had an elder tell me there was nothing wrong with him singing and playing Amazing Grace on his piano or guitar at home (and he did both), BUT would not be o.k. at the church assembly, not because of offending someone, but that it was actually forbidden in Scripture. WELL... THIS ISN'T LOGICAL. IF HE CAN WORSHIP GOD SPIRITUALLY AND ACCEPTABLY IN HIS HOME WITH THE INSTRUMENT THEN HE CAN AT A BUILDING WITH A CHURCH OF CHRIST SIGN ON IT, PLUS... HOMES ARE EXACTLY WHERE THE FIRST CHRISTIANS WORSHIPPED ALONG WITH SYNAGOGUES. SO WOULD IT NOT BE O.K. FOR OTHER CHRISTIANS TO JOIN HIM IN HIS HOME AND SING AMAZING GRACE WITH INSTRUMENTS? (You said a few weeks ago to me on this forum that you also do this at home. Are you practicing idolatry at home? Certainly not.)
Either way, whether you and others change on this issue or not, you are still my brothers and sisters in Christ with whom I am supposed to and do accept and fellowship.
Grace and peace.
Re: David's writings in the Scripture?
|November 4 2010, 3:20 AM |
1. The context in Psalm 150 and Daniel 3 is the same as it pertains to musical instruments and the love for this type of earthly love for earthly music. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE COMMAND OR DIRECTIVE FROM GOD [not even from the favored resource, the Old Testament] that He is to be worshiped with mechanical music. Man just concocted the notion that God approves its mechanical operation and that it is pleasing to Him. Can you find any of that in the entire Holy Scripture? No, I think not.
Yes, there is a prallel in the object of "worship" from the human standpoint: (1) God: from David's own personal standpoint and (2) the golden image: from Nebuchanezzar's kingly standpoint. Neither one was God's directive. Yes, we know about "idolatry," but you must learn that there are other forms of idolatry: this one is musical idolatry. This is even truer when you make an assertion that "the musical instruments are being used to praise Jehovah God." Well, just who is that wisest person on earth who said so? Certainly, not God.
2. Your statement: "You believe that the New Testament authorizes the singing of the psalms, yet the instrumental portion is not authorized (would be idolatry), yet this is exactly how some of them were originally sung."
What would I know about "the instrumental portion" of a psalm? How would I know how a psalm was "originally sung"?
The greater emphasis in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 is not even about singing. Rather it is about letting "the word of Christ dwell in you richly...." The expressions "speaking to yourselves" and "teaching and admonishing one another" stronly imply a gathering or an assembly of saints. Musical devices are not magical and powerful enough to accomplish any of those tasks. Besides, there is no "implication" in those passages that IM is used, as you claim. And your container and its contents analogy is empty and weak.
3. David undoubtedly was a man of God, but it was not his position to approve or ordain that which did not directly come from God. Aren't you able to discern that which God has commanded or directed from that which man has invented or assumed or ideated? Remember that David was king of Israel and a skilled musician.
4. It's interesting: that you "do not even practice instrumental music." I really see nothing wrong with practicing -- I wish I had the time and discipline to practice and play the piano at home. I might do it when I retire from my earthly vocation. [Consider this a facetious remark ... somewhat.]
5. No, Sonny, it is the other way around. Churches of Christ (not the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ) simply do not use inanimate, lifeless musical devices and objects in the gathering of saints. Let's leave it that way. Otherwise, when instrumental music is implemented or incorporated into the assembly of a peaceful congregation, the probability is great that such a peaceful congregation will experience alienation among its members and DIVISION. Remember the 1906 religious census when the church of Christ was "officially" divided between those who did and those who did not use instrumental music?
6. I didn't think many would fail to notice it when I said that sometimes I play the piano to learn a new hymn. Am I practicing musical idolatry at home? Hmmm. Maybe, I should feel guilty? Hmmm. At least I'm not responsible for other saints practicing idolatry with me.
(Sorry, Sonny, to inform you that I've heard those same arguments before: the church building, song books, pitch pipe, baptistery, kitchen sink and utensils, indoor toilets, air conditioning, and other conveniences. Regardless of how we make those comparisons: APPLES ARE NOT ORANGES.)
Re: David's writings in the Scripture?
|November 4 2010, 6:19 PM |
As I stated at the end, we are still brothers in Christ. Thank you for your response and perspective. I will respond and then allow you the final word if you would like to respond to my statements.
1. I do not agree that if a Christian in the first century read a Psalm of David or another worshipper that talks about praising God with instruments that they would say this is not from God and His Word. Obviously you disagree.
2. When you say "What would I know about 'the instrumental portion' of a psalm?", I was referring to the 25-30 psalms which have a beginning statement about being worshipped with instruments, and it sometimes specifies exactly which ones and even to what tune. That is all. I agree with you that when it mentions an ancient tune in the description, we would have no clue as to what this is. Obviously the way we sing any psalm is going to be different. Likewise, our 4-part "harmony" today is different. In the Catholic church even today their books of songs are all ones to be sung in unison and not "echoes" or "parts", which is more likely how the first century church worshipped. I realize you likely already know this.
3. 2 Chronicles 29:25 reads, "He stationed the Levites in the temple of the LORD with cymbals, harps and lyres in the way prescribed by David and Gad the king's seer and Nathan the prophet; this was commanded by the LORD THROUGH HIS PROPHETS." THIS WAS COMMANDED BY THE LORD through his prophets. God works through prophets and people, including David, Nathan and Gad. (I do not think this is even an interpretative difference as the text clearly(?) says "THIS WAS COMMANDED BY THE LORD".)
4. Nothing to disagree with or clarify.
5. I believe it is both ways. All Christians should seek unity. Whether it is IM, PT, or any differences, that we all approach with humility and love.
6. I do not believe it is idolatry in a home by oneself or with others, and thus, IM is not idolatry in the assembly. Again, Daniel 3 is speaking of worshipping Nebuchadnezzar and his gold statue, which is idolatry. Worshipping God with or without instruments is not idolatry.
I agree with the apples/oranges points and that this one point is not an exact parallel, which is why I stated this previously, and thus, concur this is my weakest point. It is not the only point nor main point of my doctrinal position.
Grace and peace on this doctrinal matter Brother Cruz. I have enjoyed the dialogue and will read your response.