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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: David's writings in the Scripture?

November 5 2010, 3:50 AM 


I'm happy to respond. BTW, thanks for your patience and the civil dialogue.

1. I do not believe that we disagree on the divine inspiration of the Holy Scripture. As I already mentioned, the Scripture is comprised of several components: biography, history, law and commandments, man's good and evil deeds, etc. -- they're all from God for our knowledge and learning. However, here's what we specifically disagree on: (a) Sonny believes that since the OT informs us that men of God worshiped God with instruments, so NT Christians in the assembly of saints may worship God with musical devices versus (b) Donnie maintains that there is not a single instruction or commandment directly from God to be found in both the Old and the New Testaments that we are to worship Him with musical devices .

2. Again, references to musical instruments associated with the "25-30 psalms" does not mean it was/is God's directive to worship Him with lifeless, inanimate musical objects. What would we expect coming from David's mind and heart while he was king of Israel and a skilled musician? David, although a "man of God," did not have the authority to ordain musical instruments to be used in worship just because he thought it was good and would be acceptable to God.

3. In regard to II Chron 29:25 -- "And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets."

We need to refer to verse 5 to understand the nature of "the commandment of the Lord." It says: "Hear me, ye Levites, sanctify now yourselves, and sanctify the house of the LORD God of your fathers, and carry forth the filthiness out of the holy place."

Why would God "command" them to worship Him with instruments? He did not. He never has. That was not God's idea in v. 25. God's command was responded to in verse 25 with "... and he set the Levites in the house of the Lord" to "sanctify" themselves, period. But "with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps" was "according to the commandment of David."

I think Adam Clarke, in his own words, can help explain this:

The Adam Clarke Commentary
Chapter 29

Moses had not appointed any musical instruments to be used in the divine worship; there was nothing of the kind under the first tabernacle. The trumpets or horns then used were not for song nor for praise, but as we use bells, i.e., to give notice to the congregation of what they were called to perform, instruments of music into God's worship, for which we have already seen he was solemnly reproved by the prophet Amos, Amos 6:1-6. Here, however, the author of this book states he had the commandment of the prophet Nathan, and Gad the king's seer; and this is stated to have been the commandment of the Lord by his prophets: but the Syriac and Arabic give this a different turn-"Hezekiah appointed the Levites in the house of the Lord, with instruments of music, and the sound of harps, and with the HYMNS of DAVID, and the HYMNS of GAD, the king's prophet, and of NATHAN, the king's prophet: for David sang the praises of the Lord his God, as from the mouth of the prophets." It was by the hand or commandment of the Lord and his prophets that the Levites should praise the Lord; for so the Hebrew text may be understood: and it was by the order of David that so many instruments of music should be introduced into the Divine service. But were it even evident, which it is not, either from this or any other place in the sacred writings, that instruments of music were prescribed by Divine authority under the law, could this be adduced with any semblance of reason, that they ought to be used in Christian worship? No: the whole spirit, soul, and genius of the Christian religion are against this: and those who know the Church of God best, and what constitutes its genuine spiritual state, know that these things have been introduced as a substitute for the life and power of religion; and that where they prevail most, there is least of the power of Christianity. Away with such portentous baubles from the worship of that infinite Spirit who requires his followers to worship him in spirit and in truth, for to no such worship are those instruments friendly. See the texts in the margin; also the use of the trumpets in the sanctuary, Numbers 10:2.
In Numbers 10, we find:
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[2] Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.
[3] And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Are there other specific uses of musical instruments besides: (1) for the calling of the assembly and (2) for the journeying of the camps? Oh, let me think. (3) When the Israelites went out to battle against their enemies.

4. [No disagreement.]

5. No, we cannot have it both ways. The Christian Church/Disciples of Christ offers the option to use musical devices in the assembly; churches of Christ do not.

6. We both understand the difference in the object of worship between God and the golden image, and the difference is not the issue. Rather, the issue has to do with whether or not God (not man) has authorized or directed His followers to worship Him with musical devices. It might take a very, very long time to find a reference in the Holy Scripture [both OT and NT] to God ever directing His followers to operate mechanical music in the assembly of saints. Remember, idolatry is not limited to worshiping and adoring the golden image. There is such a thing as musical idolatry.

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(no login)

My last word ... (Part 2?) LOL

November 5 2010, 5:53 AM 

Brother Cruz,

I said I would give you the last word... which was my intention... but can I retract for one last post for this dialogue? (LOL)

I have 4 Scriptures for us and everyone reading this to consider, because I believe you (and Adam Clarke? whom I do respect his commentaries overall) are twisting 2 Chronicles 29 and the point about the New Testament not commanding/permitting instrumental worship/psalms. If you still disagree after reading the same Scriptures again, sobeit. No point in us making the same points unceasingly to each other. (And probably 95-99% of Scripture we do agree on what the text is saying.) Maybe next we can talk about one of those matters?

Yes, this has been civil and wholesome. Who would think among 2 Church of Christ(ers)? - Praise God!!!

All Scriptures NKJV:

#1) 2 Chronicles 29:25 - "He (Hezekiah? vs. 20) stationed the Levites in the temple of the LORD with cymbals, harps and lyres in the way prescribed by David and Gad the king's seer and Nathan the prophet; this was commanded by the LORD through his prophets."

What is the "this" commanded by the LORD through his prophets?

#2) 2 Chronicles 29:35b-36 - "So the service of the temple of the LORD was reestablished. Hezekiah and all the people rejoiced at what God had brought about for his people, because it was done so quickly."

What is implied by "reestablished"? And, is the reestablishment of the temple of the LORD described here as being positive or negative, acceptable or unacceptable?

#3) 2 Chronicles 30:18-20 - "Although most of the many people who came from Ephraim, Manasseh, Issacher and Zebulun had not purified themselves, yet they ate the Passover, CONTRARY TO WHAT WAS WRITTEN. BUT HEZEKIAH PRAYED FOR THEM, saying, 'May the LORD, who is good, pardon everyone who sets his heart on seeking God - the LORD, the God of his fathers - even if he is not clean according to the rules of the sanctuary.' AND THE LORD HEARD HEZEKIAH AND HEALED THE PEOPLE."

Is it possible to worship "unclean" / "unauthorized" and still be "accepted" and "blessed/healed" by God because one's "HEART IS SET ON SEEKING GOD" (vs. 19) AND God is good/merciful?

#4) Colossians 3:16 (could also use Eph. 5:19) - "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God."

Does the command to sing psalms not imply/permit the possibility of the accompaniment of instruments?

Psalm 149:1-5 states that a community ("assembly of the saints") can rejoice and praise God's name with dancing and music and singing SIMULTANEOUSLY and that God takes delight in his people. This is to offset any point about the church not being able to sing and play at the same time. (If we want to split hairs about each individual, one can definitely do so with piano and guitar.)

Grace and peace (again). I will now submit to your final response.


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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

they are ALL the Bibliical text.

November 3 2010, 7:39 PM 

What do you think Paul means by the following 3 distinct terms in Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 - psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs? (In contrast, 1 Corinthians only mentions "hymns" in 14:26.) I have wondered what is different about "spiritual songs" from the other two. Perhaps one of you three, or others on this forum have some helpful insight.

There are MANY descriptions of the assembly (synagogue, ekklesia) and melody isused in Ephesians 5 which is parallel to GRACE in Colossians 3. Melody and grace are both qualities of speaking. Paul's active verbe is SPEAK as in LOGOS which is clearly defines as the OPPOSITE of poetry or music.

In Romans 15 Paul's SELF-pleasing outlaws all of the performing arts: if you grasp SCHOOL of DISCIPLES being taught what Jesus COMMMANDED to be taught, you couldn't hallucinate making music when Jesus comes within our midst.

Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs are ALL titles of POEMS in the Book of Psalms.
In Romans 15 the RESOURCE is "That which is written" or "Scripture." The presentation method is to use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH or glossa (tongue). Paul compared many mouths or tongues to LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS or CARNAL WEAPONS.

Christ in Isaiah 58 outlawed seeking your own pleasure or SINGING your own words: that, says Peter would repudiate Christ who spoke through the Prophets and then Apostles and validated His word with supernatural signs. All religious musicians performed the EFFEMINATE ART and "only women and the effeminate could fall into it." Even the cursed Levites dressed like women and sang falsetto.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Clanging Brass: the prophetess of Dodona spoke always said nothing.

November 4 2010, 5:30 PM 

Old Paul had never heard a made up praise song in synagogue and he was therefore not Biblically or culturally illiterate.

P. Ovidius Naso, Art of Love, Remedy of Love, Art of Beauty, Court of Love, History of Love, Amours (ed. various)


What impious wretch will Ceres' rites expose,1

Or Juno's [speaking to the AIR GOD in Corinth] solemn mysteries disclose!

His witty torments Tantalus deserves,2
That thirsts in waves and viewing banquets starves.

But Venus [Lucifer-ZOE] most in secresy delights:
Away, ye babblers, from her silent rites!
No pomp her mysteries attend, no noise!
No sounding brass proclaims the latent joys!

With folded arms the happy pair possess,
Nor should the fond betraying tongue confess
Those raptures, which no language can express.
When naked Venus casts her robes aside,

The parts obscene her hands extended hide;
No girl on propagating beasts will gaze,
But hangs her head, and turns away her face.
We darken'd beds and doors for love provide;
What nature cannot, decent habit hide.

Love darkens courts, at most a glimm'ring light,
To raise our joys, and just oblige the sight.
Ere happy men beneath the roof were laid,
When oaks provided them with food and shade,
Some gloomy cave receiv'd the wanton pair;

For light too modest, and unshaded air!
From public view they decently retir'd,
And secretly perform'd what love inspir'd.
Now scarce a modish fop about the town,
But boasts with whom, how oft, and where 'twas done;3

They taste no pleasure, relish no delight,
Till they recount what pass'd the happy night.
But men of honour always thought is base,
To prostitute each kinder nymph's embrace:

To blast her fame, and vainly hurt his own,
And furnish scandal for a lewd lampoon.
And here I must some guilty arts excuse,
And disingenuous shifts that lovers use,
To wrong the chaste and innocent abuse.

When long repuls'd they find their courtship vain,
Her character with infamy they stain;
Denied her person they debauch her fame,
And brand her innocence with public shame.

Go, jealous fool, the injur'd beauty guard,
Let ev'ry door be lock'd, and window barr'd!
The suff'ring nymph remains expos'd to wrong,
Her name's a prostitute to ev'ry tongue;
For malice with joy the lie receive,
Report, and what it wishes true, believe.

1 This is a simile, and shows us it was not lawful to reveal the mysteries of Ceres. Macrobius in the 11th chapter of his first book upon Scipio's dream, writes that the philosopher Numenius, being too curious to know the secrets of hidden things, incurred the wrath of the gods by divulging the Eleusinian mysteries, which were the same with those of Ceres.

2 He proves by the example of Tantalus, that no man should reveal secrets. Tantalus, so Diodorus tells us, was the son of Jupiter and the nymph Plota, equally rich and renowned. He dwelt in Paphlagonia, and was favoured by the gods for the dignity of his birth ; but having been told some of their secrets, and divulging them to mortals, he was thrown into hell for his crime, where his punishment was what Ovid tells us.

3 And who is there so ignorant as not to know that the fops of our age are exactly like those of Ovid's?

The Nymphs(omaniacs) are the brides in Revelation 18: along with the singers, instrument players, "grinders" or prostitutes performed hieros gamos or sacred marriage in the worship: ACappella etal provides this HOLY SEX with God when they begin to sing, clap, bump and grind and you move in "symphony" with them. New Wineskins is aka the Vinyard: the vineyard songbook has filtrated through Howard into too many congregations. The musical performance is INTENDED to induce a sexual climax with the spirit.

This rising up to play in musical idolatry at Mount Sinai was without redemption: they were performing an old style service producing literal, visual and auditory ORGASM, so they claim. At 80 I just couldn't tolerate it: that's why they induce the YOUTH into their Holy Tavern and Holy Whorehosue defined in Revelation 17-18..

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Clanging Brass: the prophetess of Dodona spoke always said nothing.

November 4 2010, 5:41 PM 

MOST if not ALL words which speak of STRIKING a musical instruments with your FINGER but never with a PLECTRUM are WARFARE and SEXUAL POLLUTION word: that includes PSALLO and the CLANGING word.

klang-ê , hê, metapl. dat. klangi Ibyc.56 : ( [klazô] ):--any sharp sound, e.g.

TWAMG of the BP, Il.1.49; scream of birds, esp. cranes,

to which are compared CONFUSED cries of a THRONG, 3.3, Od.11.605, cf. Il.2.100, 10.523;

grunting of swine, Od. 14.412; later,

howling of wolves and lions, h.Hom.14.4, cf. 27.8;

[1] I Prithee, clear-voiced Muse, daughter of mighty Zeus, sing of the mother of all gods and men. She is well-pleased with the sound of rattles and of timbrels, with the voice of flutes and the outcry of wolves and bright-eyed lions, [5] with echoing hills and wooded coombes.

And so hail to you in my song and to all goddesses as well!

hissing of serpents, Pi.Dith.2.18 (pl.), A.Th.381 (pl.);

baying of dogs, X.Cyn.4.5, etc.;

also, of musical instruments,

Telest.4, Mnesim.4.57 (anap.); of song, S.Tr.208 (lyr.); k. aêdoneios (leg. -onios) Nicom. Trag.1; k. dusphatos,

of Cassandra's prophecies, A.Ag.1152 (lyr.);

of the scream of the Harpies, A.R.2.269. Perseus

[linked image]

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Psalm 149

November 5 2010, 9:54 PM 

Here is Psalm 149 with word definitions and links to real literature.

The nation had been abandoned to WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST.
David and the Levites are marked with female singing styles, clothing and the definition of PROPHESYING which translaltes to SOOTHSAYING or SORCERY.

They made WAR and not worship. If everything from Mount Sinai onward to the captivity and death of the masses, and up to the time of Christ they were BLINDED because the loud sounds at the temple dedication consigned God beyond the Veil: that cut off the presence of God, His Word and His Grace or mercy.

The worship of the starry host was most often perverted: prostitutes and Sodomites plagued Jerusalem and all sacrificial systems added as a curse to LOST PEOPLE. Psalms are to be SPOKEN as a way to teach: my quick study of Psalms 75 confirms that when Messiah sets up His assembly all of the perversion and cruelty will be shut down.

If you grasp that David was not a WORSHIP MINISTER but a poetic historian of the good, bad and ugly, you will grasp that the writer of Psalm 149 (Probably Ugaritic as with many) lusts to get his "god" into his bed.

The commanded function is to TEACH "that which is written" or "that which has been taught." Jesus in HIS assembly (see Psalm 75 again) OUTLAWS mind-altering or anxiety-producing singing called BURDENS.. I have cleaned up my Rich Atchley and Chris Seidman terminal judgment from Christ Himself.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
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