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New Poll @this website - do you believe in instrumental music or do you believe in LOVE?

October 29 2010 at 11:00 AM
N.J. Gold  (Login NJGold)
from IP address 172.129.109.110

Scriptural Verification:

Paul comes out swinging in verse 1

"If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. " - 1 Corinthians 13: NASV.

Poll:
a.) I believe in instrumental music
b.) I choose LOVE

Thanks for your participation and lots of love all!

N.J. Gold

Isaiah 1:17
learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed.
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.



Song of Solomon -http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=song%20of%20solomon%201-8&version=KJV



 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.141.177.53

Re: New Poll @this website - do you believe in instrumental music or do you believe in LOVE?

October 29 2010, 12:22 PM 

I gather:

-- That choice a.) is about using instrumental music in the assembly
-- That choice b.) is about loving God and neighbor.
-- That this poll is about choosing one or the other, although unrelated
-- That qualifying the answer(s) may be necessary and is allowed.

I would recommend identifying one's church affiliation or preference.

 
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Scotty
(no login)
75.53.144.167

Love

October 29 2010, 5:51 PM 

Jesus said the world would recognize his followers by their love. He did not qualify this recognition by requiring abstinence from instrumental music.

I choose to follow Jesus and choose love.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.24

Go ahead: make Jesus' day!

October 29 2010, 6:34 PM 

I would LOUVEEE-UH to see what happened when you meet Jesus trudging down the dirty road--maybe now in your church neighborhood.

You jump in front of him and whine out a new style praise song with or without instruments.
I can tell you: He would HURT you in all of the right places.

The musical minstrels tried to ASSIST Him in His work and He "cast them out more or less violently" as one ejects dung.

The Dionysus or old wineskinners approached Jesus and He said that the MEN were like CHILDREN in the marketplace. They piped trying to force people to sing or lament or dance.
That old Dionysus initiation--right in the holy places--would hurt real bad when you bowed to Baal.

Did I tell you that the BEAST in Revelation (logically) is not an animal: the word means "a new style song or drama." Now THAT kind of "love" has always been the persona of religious musicians.

Love does not use the Making War or Making Love words like Psallo or Psalmos on people. Music HURTS before the drug high makes you feel spiritual. Now, I would purely resist a singy-clappy praise minister trying to jerk me into motion. As Carol Wimber of the Vineyard says and Plato and everyone says, that is the desired sexual climactic experience with the spirit person.

Here is one of my latest reviews of a preacher spewing the usual ACU type hype in promoting instruments especially effective in out of the way places.

http://www.piney.com/Clyde.Symonette.Psallo.Nassau.Bahamas.html


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Love

October 29 2010, 9:46 PM 

I haven't made my choice(s) yet. At this point, I am only responding to Scotty's post.

Scotty brings up a good point when he said that Jesus "did not qualify...." Jesus did NOT and could NOT qualify that which God has not commanded. How could he? Something would normally be qualified if something nebulous needs further explanation or clarification. It's man who has concocted the notion that God approves or authorizes the operation of mechanical music devices in worshiping our Father in heaven. It makes one wonder what God thinks of man's brilliance in suggesting that we worship Him:
(1) in spirit
------ and ------
(2) in truth
------ PLUS ------
(3) in manual operation of mechanical music devices.

 
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AM
(no login)
151.213.177.234

Re: Love

October 30 2010, 2:48 PM 

Jesus came to us and for us, to show us how we should worship God. Can you honestly, in love, tell someone that is searching for God's love and mercy, that Jesus worshiped God with an instrument? I can think of nothing more hateful and deceitful than to lead a lost soul down a path of misconception. Jesus's worship was simple and personal, not part of a band. Do you think you may be missing the entire idea of spiritual worship when we allow external forms to be taught to the young and the lost?


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Instrumental Music vs [?] LOVE?

October 29 2010, 11:03 PM 

Since there are only two choices (and I don't see any connection), I would say that I believe in BOTH. But let me elaborate:

1. I believe in instrumental music -- it is a reality:
  • Did God make a mistake in the Old Testament era with the old covenant when His followers were to obey the 10 Commandments, to offer blood sacrifices and burnt offerings, to tithe, etc.? But then God did not command His followers to worship Him with man-made musical devices? (Sorry, no scriptural support is found.)
  • David, king of Israel and a very skilled MUSICIAN, [NOT God] invented the musical instruments (Psa. 106:29; Amos 6:5).
  • David [NOT God] ordained instruments of music (II Chron. 29:27).
  • It was David, who did not have a church or congregation, that decided for himself to "praise" God with his invented instruments of music.
  • Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon [like David, king of Israel], made a golden image and commanded his followers to worship the golden image with instruments of music: cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of music (Daniel 3).
  • In the New Testament era, there is no command or example that musical instruments were used by the first century church or Christians. (Sorry, no scriptural support is found.)
  • It was the Roman Catholic Church that first introduced instrumental music in worship.
  • The philosophy: "The Scripture does not say 'NOT TO'"-- giving permission to do that which Scripture does not forbid -- is a very dangerous position or assumption.
  • Can one even imagine what worship is like if Christians were to add many elements that Scripture does not forbid?
2. I believe in LOVE. Unlike instrumental music that is NEVER commanded, love is a command:
  • Love is not an emotional state that human beings normally think of.
  • Love in the New Testament is identified as sacrificial or "agape" love. It is a command for the Christian to keep God's commandments: "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15; 15:10; etc.).
3. I am a member of the church that Christ established.

 
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AM
(no login)
151.213.177.234

Re: Instrumental Music vs [?] LOVE?

October 30 2010, 2:38 PM 

"If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. " - 1 Corinthians 13: NASV.

I think this verse is a good example of love or instuments. Understanding the primitive nature of instruments in Paul's time, the verse can be explained that: one either has love for God and his people or, one is just a noisey musical instrument. How much more condemning of musical instruments can be stated by Paul, a follower of Christ. The Bible never states that one's love for God or man is expressed by a gong or a clanging cymbal(or a drum , a trumpet, a violin....).

My vote would be to follow the example of Jesus and not be apart of the instrumental music vote. I am sure in days to come we will understand why Jesus did not use musical instruments to worship God.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.150.135

Re: Instrumental Music vs [?] LOVE?

October 30 2010, 3:57 PM 

I couldn't have said it better. Bravo! In today's postmodern church, the purpose of instruments is to accentuate adrenaline highs and promote emotional lability under the false notion that they are indicators of "faith."

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Thanks AM

October 30 2010, 9:45 PM 

One good point that AM made is that with Jesus you clearly understood/understand everything about Him.
If there was something that He didn't like you knew/know it. Did He ever make instrumental music an issue? No, and you had better not either.
As long as we worship in Truth and Spirit our worship is accepted by God. Praise teams.....a capella.....instruments of music......clapping.......is of no issue......it is HOW we worship our God in our hearts.
Are you wiser than our King? Would you speak in place of Jesus, since He would not on such issues?
Surely not!

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Thanks AM

October 30 2010, 10:57 PM 

Dave,

Jesus did not make instrumental music an issue because he never brought up (commanded or ensampled) the use of musical devices [as well as other idolatrous objects] in the first place. And because he made no mention of it does not give you permission to concoct or invent something that's self-pleasing and enjoyable and, then, persuade yourself and others that your extraneous invention or discovery is pleasing and acceptable to God.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
151.213.177.234

Re: Thanks AM

October 30 2010, 11:25 PM 

Praise teams.....a capella.....instruments of music......clapping.......is of no issue......it is HOW we worship our God in our hearts.

"HOW" is given by example. The rest is Human preference. We can agree that Jesus is our example and when we are leading a lost soul to God, our only lesson can be to teach what Jesus did when he was before God. There is no preference or options. Do you think Jesus's example is just an option for a deeper more effective marketing campaign? Or is it something we can passively acknowledge and call it Christian if we can humanly and polictical find it comfortable? Once again, there is nothing to point to in the Bible, in the life of Jesus, that would suggest external worship of God.

Where did Jesus Speak of Praise teams? I have a child that is sad because there is a feeling of inadequacy and rejection due to the older people have microphones and sit on the front row. The lesson, I give to my child is that these people do not understand the spirit in young or lost and that God's people do not need a microphone. Of course I reference the Prayer at the temple when Jesus stated that the person praying, wants to be seen before men and not be humble before God. I also teach that these people are lost too and we should help them find God as we also search. Yet, why would they, once again, want to be recognized before men as something more reverant?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.230.116

Re: Thanks AM

October 31 2010, 3:45 AM 

Dave wrote to AM: "Are you wiser than our King? Would you speak in place of Jesus, since He would not on such issues? Surely not!"

We can ask Dave the same question: Would Dave assume (speak where Jesus did not) that because "Jesus didn't say not to," then it is permissible to have instruments in worship? Dave had better not! Since we are told the kind of music to use (vocal), then ADDING IM is speaking where Jesus has not. It's as simple as that.

 
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AM
(no login)
151.213.177.234

Previous post

October 31 2010, 10:03 AM 

I am curious as to why people in the New church of Christ see those of us in the Traditional church of Christ not acceptable to speak to what seems to be wrong in the worship of God, as we follow the patterns of Jesus Christ. Looking to where the story begins with the Jewish nation and King David, who was a musician, played a harp, wrote music in his worship to God and established the laws for his kingdom, we could see a contrast. The King's laws were not beneficial to the masses and basically made an elitist class, that left people out (if they were not born a Jew). Jesus came along and loved all people the same, unlike the previous king. Jesus's worship to God, was totally different to the way David worshipped God. There are alot of records to show David worshipped God with music(Psalms)yet there is not one record that Jesus worshipped God with music. It would just follow that if the Bible was written to include such detail about music in the Old Testament, would it not point out the same with Jesus? What example should we follow, David's or Jesus? There in would the answer to our spiritual nature that Jesus helps us recognize, which uses no external form of music.
It comes down to calling oneself a follower of Christ example or not a follower of that example. All modern churches seem to want to be all inclusive of people, what seems to make problems is the example we use to call ourselves Christian. The tradition, that the progressive church goers find less than a desirable form of worship, may be more of the pattern Jesus put forth for worship and not just tradition itself.


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Re: Previous post

October 31 2010, 2:55 PM 

"

We can ask Dave the same question: Would Dave assume (speak where Jesus did not) that because "Jesus didn't say not to," then it is permissible to have instruments in worship? Dave had better not! Since we are told the kind of music to use (vocal), then ADDING IM is speaking where Jesus has not. It's as simple as that.

William Crump, I realize that is has been a while since you have been out of college, so let me explain some logic, and profile YOUR illogical reasoning. People like you, William, believe that logic doesn't apply to them. For a reality check.....most people like you have their own rules for logic......speaking of reality check.....that would do you a bit of good.
William Crump said "Since we are told the kind of music to use (vocal), then ADDING IM is speaking where Jesus has not. It's as simple as that."

Logically speaking, whether we use an instrument or not, as long as the singing is accomplished we are acting on the command TO SING. The instrument will ONLY accompany the singing. It neither takes place of or prohibits the singing.
Now, William says that an instrument is ADDING to that which is called for in Scripture.
Let's now apply that to what is called for when we are commanded to GO and teach the world about Jesus.
Matthew 28
9Therefore GO and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
The only examples we have of to "GO" in the NT is by foot, animals, and boat.
So if we, today, use a plane, a car, the internet, or anything else not used by the first century church, then by William's example we are going BEYOND what it is called for in the Scriptures.
In the NT church, instrumental music being used to accompany the singing isn't spoken of, so by William's call, we shouldn't use it.
In the NT church, the internet isn't spoken of to GO to teach the world about Christ, but yet that is ok with those who use this evil concerned members site to promote hate.
Do you see a double standard here?
Good! Because that is what they want to employ here....a double standard to protect a tradition.

AM,
It seems to me that you are wrong when you say that "Jesus's worship to God, was totally different to the way David worshipped God."
Why is that wrong. Why was David loved by God?
Acts 13
22After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'
Why AM?
Because Jesus taught that the heart meant everything in worship to His Father. David knew that. That is why he not only praised God with his words, but also his talent of playing and singing.
He used ALL of his heart and soul to worship God. He was a lot different than most kings.
Am, also with your reasoning about why the OT spoke of instrument but not the NT.......how about another counter reasoning?
Hear what Jesus says.....Matthew 19
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'

AM, does those verses mention anything about any condemnation of musical instruments?
Is there condemnation anywhere in the NT for instruments of music?
Would you condemn something simply because there is no mention of it's use in the NT?
Would that also go with the PA system that you use for announcements in the church, preaching the Word, amplifying the song leader's voice? It isn't mentioned as being used anywhere in the NT either. And yes, AM, it IS tradition because the manner in which we worship God today is far far different than the way the apostles and the first church did. Is tradition wrong? No.....UNLESS it becomes spoken of as the ONLY WAY to worship our Lord.


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Dave's logic: It's OK to worship the Virgin Mary.

October 31 2010, 8:45 PM 

Dave is never tired of: "Scripture does not say 'NOT TO'; therefore, God authorizes it."

Dave looks for "specifics" -- only when they favor his fallacious logic.

Based on Dave's fallacious logic -- it is OK to worship the Virgin Mary.

How can that be?

Well, it's really that simple. Just base it on Dave's erroneous premise: that the Scripture does NOT say "NOT TO." Where that's applicable to instrumental music being "NOT FORBIDDEN"; it is applicable also to the worship of the Virgin Mary being 'NOT FORBIDDEN."

"Instrumental music" is a very specific element or component.

"The Virgin Mary" is also a very specific element or component.

Right?

Right!

 
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AM
(no login)
71.30.179.132

Re: Previous post

November 1 2010, 12:05 AM 

David was not a nice person. Adulterer, murderer and he was over the top self-centered. Yet God loved him. David was King of a powerful nation, and he answered to know one. If he wanted to take someone's wife and then kill the husband because of protest, it was done and it was legal. People would throw themselves at the foot of the king and the king could use them in anyway he wanted. David found God and worshipped him as he, the king, was worshipped. He sacrificed animals. Wanted to build a temple to God. His Psalms descibed how he worshipped God:

Psalm 149:3
Let them praise his name in the dance: Let them sing praises unto him with timbrel(tambourine)
and harp.

In Contrast, Jesus was a king and treated people differently. We agree that Jesus never abused an individual for his desire, the point Jesus treated people differently than did David.

Jesus's worship to God did not have dance, timbrel or harp. And he was the sacrifice. Jesus is trying to get us to turn away from how David lived his life and worshipped. When the limits of our languages are stretched to the greatest degree and the concept not conveyed, the only way to communicate thoughts are by an example. The rearing of children is often done by example due to their immaturity and lack of understanding, which is alot like people dealing with spiritual issues. Thus Jesus came and gave us an example of how things should be with God. A dramatic and different way to the way things were being done in his time. Honestly, as a follower of Christ I will adhere to every aspect of his life. I will not be coereced into thinking that there are options to the worship of God. Jesus could have danced, he could have played a harp, but he did not. I hope we can discuss why he did not do these things sometime, yet if I boldly state that I am a follower of Christ, how could I do things any other way? I have trust in him.


 
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AM
(no login)
151.213.177.234

Re: Thanks AM

October 31 2010, 2:58 PM 

"One good point that AM made is that with Jesus you clearly understood/understand everything about Him."

I did not make that point. Therefore your point is not validated by my statement, nor is your statement valid at all.

As others on this site, try validating your thoughts and statements with Jesus, not another poster.

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Interesting Indeed

October 31 2010, 8:34 PM 

AM,
So you don't believe that with Jesus you clearly understood everything about Him?
Interesting......



 
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N.J. Gold
(Login NJGold)
172.130.159.109

re:

October 31 2010, 9:48 PM 

Well, would it be fair or unfair to say that in 1 Corinthians 13:1 Paul draws a contrast?

http://mw2.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contrast

TY and lots of love to all.

church affiliation - church in the woods (wilderness)

ISAIAH 1:17
learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed.
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.


Song of Solomon -http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=song%20of%20solomon%201-8&version=KJV


 
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