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Doctrine vs. Dogma

October 30 2010 at 2:18 PM
Sonny  (no login)
from IP address 99.186.93.107

Below is an example of contrasting doctrine with dogma.

2 John 9-11 clearly says not to welcome someone who does not continue in the doctrine of Christ. We are not to welcome such into our home or share in their wicked work.

So what is this doctrine? The text and context tells us. We do not have to resort to dogma.

2 John 7 - "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." (1 John 2:18, 22 and 4:3 communicate this same message.)

Some Christians in Ephesus were saying that Jesus did not actually come in the flesh. This teaching of docetism the gnostics were promoting including serious consequences, including that it did not matter what we do with our body (sexual immorality).

Why did they reject Christ coming in the flesh? They said the soul was good but the flesh evil. Thus, God could not inhabit flesh.

Dogma is to take such a text and make it apply to and promote our hundreds of opinions about matters the text (nor others) is not addressing.

-Sonny

 
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AuthorReply
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Doctrine of Christ: What is it or what does it encompass?

October 30 2010, 4:31 PM 

Sonny,

Before we begin contrasting "doctrine" and "dogma", would you first clarify what "the doctrine of Christ" encompasses?

Would you restrict the doctrine of Christ to His "coming in the flesh" only? If so, where's your proof? If not, what other teachings comprise "the doctrine of Christ"?

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: Doctrine of Christ: What is it or what does it encompass?

October 30 2010, 5:15 PM 

When the apostle John speaks of the doctrine of Christ in 2 John 9, it is in the context of the "false" doctrine/teaching of the antichrist.

The message of the antichrist was that Jesus did not literally come in the flesh. Docetism is the teaching that he only "appeared" to come in the flesh.

Thus, the doctrine of Christ (specifically being referenced in 2 John 9) is the teaching about the incarnation of Jesus as God's Son providing salvation on the cross.

My point is that we take passages such as 2 John 9 out of context and treat practically every Christian with whom we disagree with on practically anything as though they are the antichrist and with whom we must disfellowship.

1 John 2:18 - "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

1 John 2:22 - "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist - he denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:1-3 - "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."

2 John 7 - "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."

This is the context in which John speaks of the doctrine of Christ in 2 John 9-10 - the specific and uncompromising truth that Christ came in the flesh.

Who is the antichrist, who does not teach the doctrine of Christ?
It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 Jn. 2:22).
It is every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is from God (1 Jn. 4:3).
It is deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh (2 Jn. 7).

-Sonny

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Doctrine of Christ: What is it or what does it encompass?

October 30 2010, 5:40 PM 

No one is denying that the doctrine of Christ alluded to in the passages you quoted is his coming in the flesh. But you haven't addressed the issue if you believe that his coming in the flesh is the doctrine of Christ exclusively. Perhaps, at the time of your response, you had not read my post quoting Matt. 7.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

The people were astonished at HIS doctrine

October 30 2010, 4:58 PM 

In Matthew 7, we read about the various sayings or teachings of Christ, such as:

-- Judging others
-- Asking, seeking and knocking
-- Giving good gifts
-- Doing whatsover ye would that men should do to you
-- Entering the strait gate, narrow way vs. the wide gate, broad way
-- Being aware of false prophets in sheep's clothing
-- Knowing the fruits of good men vs. evil men
-- Doing the will of the Father to enter the kingdom
-- Building a house upon a rock vs. the sand
-- etc., etc.,

Verses 28-29: "And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: The people were astonished at HIS doctrine

October 30 2010, 5:46 PM 

Are you suggesting John is saying in 2 John 9 we should ever disfellowship people for ever worrying (Mt. 6), judging others (Mt. 7), and so forth? (I am not saying you are.)

Yes, these are other teachings of Jesus, but not what is being referenced in 2 John 9 for disfellowship. One is not an antichrist simply because they have ever struggled with a teaching of Jesus or have some growing to do in their faith. An antichrist speaks against the nature, existence, and atoning work of Christ. Such a person also compromises on matters of morality, which was happening in the first century. Some of Paul's writings also address what we do with our body, and especially the gnostic teaching that permitted sexual immorality.

Disfellowshipping someone is a serious matter.

Saying someone is no longer a Christian for a given reason is a serious matter.

We must be certain we are not disfellowshipping based on dogma.

Likewise, we must not disfellowship based on a biblical doctrine for which God has not said to disfellowship over that given doctrine. For example: We do not disfellowship someone because they have worried in the past week (Mt. 6), or not loved an enemy (Mt. 5), and so forth, but we continue to teach God's will and doctrine in a context of grace, which allows them/us to grow in grace and knowledge.

Furthermore, there are matters of liberty (Acts 15, Romans 14, Galatians 2:11-14) for which we are not to make fellowship distinctions.

In Acts 15, 4 requirements are given to the Gentile Christians for continued fellowship with the Jewish Christians. Acts 15:28-29 reads, "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."

Beyond these, there was liberty. Thus, one does not have to be my twin to be my brother. Praise God.

With all of the diversity among the Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ, they still maintained unity in the midst of diversity. Unity does not equate to 100% uniformity.

-Sonny

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: The people were astonished at HIS doctrine

October 30 2010, 10:36 PM 

I brought up Matt. 7 only from the standpoint that hopefully we all realize that "the doctrine of Christ" encompasses not only your allusion to II John 9 but also other teachings that we find in the New Testament. I could have brought up other teachings than II John 9 and Matt. 7 -- they all comprise the doctrine of Christ.

I think our posts may have crossed paths. I gather from your message above that we both agree that the doctrine of Christ in totality consists of II John 9, Matt. 7 and many other teachings that we haven't even mentioned yet.

Now, in regard to disfellowshipping, to my knowledge, nobody else has brought up that subject but you. So, I'm not sure about the point you are trying to make. Would you clarify?


 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: The people were astonished at HIS doctrine

October 31 2010, 12:16 AM 

Brother Cruz,

Yes, I think I was typing and sending a reply to your first response, not knowing you had then sent a second response as well.

In answer to your third response, I will certainly clarify.

I have stated before that I find a lot of dogma promoted on this site in the name of doctrine.

So, I bring disfellowshipping up, because it is an example of an extreme action that can result from the promotion of dogma.

If you do not personally disfellowship other Christians based on dogma, then it does not apply to you.

I was not typing my response as if it were only to you, but to any who might read and reflect on the concepts and possible misapplications of doctrine vs. dogma.

Grace and peace brother.

-Sonny



 
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Anonymous
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.17

Re: The people were astonished at HIS doctrine

October 31 2010, 11:31 AM 

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses,
....but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
....that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
....both Lord and Christ.

The SALUTATIONS in the epistles recognizes only TWO ACTORS :
One is God the Father or invisible, inaudible Deity.
The other is Jesus of Nazareth, the seed (sperm) of Abraham.
Spirit is that which passes between Heaven and Earth: "Breath" to fool the clergy.

Rom. 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
....called to be an apostle,
....separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom. 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
....which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom. 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power,
....according to the spirit of holiness,
....by the resurrection from the dead:

There is Jesus of Nazareth and as THE CHRIST OF GOD:

1Cor. 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks,
....Christ the POWER of God,
....and the WISDOM of God

1Cor. 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren,
....how that not many WISE men after the flesh,
....not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

God HIDES Himself from the WISE and Jesus will not PRAY for the WORLD.

Sophos , skilled in any handicraft or art, clever, Margites Fr.2;
....but in this sense mostly of poets and musicians, Pi.O.1.9, P.1.42, 3.113;
....en kithara s. (Guitar players)


If you believe in, participate in or enable to give aid and comfort to people who say that "god is three men with their own talents, tasks and centers of consciousness" then John wants you to know that you are an ANTI-Christ because you refuse to obey the Great Commission and "Teach what He COMMANDED you to teach."

1Cor. 1:28 And base things of the world,
.... and things which are despised, hath God chosen,
.... yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Cor. 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Cor. 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus,
....who of God
....is made unto us wisdom,
....and righteousness,
....and sanctification,
....and redemption:
1Cor. 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Glory is to vaunt and not be a loud-tongued "center" of attention and "word." Christ outlawed seeking our own pleasure or speaking our own words. Otherwise makes you a defacto Antichrist because you deny that Christ--as all of God's qualities including grace" spoke fully and finally in Jesus of Nazareth whom God DECLARED to be His Son by the resurrection. Unless you can trump that as a "trick" it is best to sit down, shut up and let Jesus do the speaking when we speak "that which is written for our LEARNING."

>


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 67.142.130.17 on Oct 31, 2010 11:39 AM


 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: The people were astonished at HIS doctrine

October 31 2010, 11:06 PM 

Brother Sublett writes:

If you believe in, participate in or enable to give aid and comfort to people who say that "god is three men with their own talents, tasks and centers of consciousness" then John wants you to know that you are an ANTI-Christ because you refuse to obey the Great Commission and "Teach what He COMMANDED you to teach."

Brother Sublett, this is not what the 4 Scriptures on the "antichrist" say, and there are only 4 in all of Scripture.

1 John 2:18
1 John 2:22
1 John 4:3
2 John 7

Point out to me which of these speaks about the antichrist being one who teaches a "trinity" concept or doctrine. (Unless I have misunderstood you.)

An antichrist spoke against the doctrine of the incarnation of Jesus (that Jesus came in the flesh). This is why First John 1:1-4 begins with the apostle John saying he actually touched / handled Jesus. This is why John's gospel record of Christ focuses on the incarnation, beginning in ch. 1:14 "The Word became flesh". It also mentions blood and water coming out of Jesus side and that doubting Thomas actually saw and touched Jesus' flesh.

Antichrists were gnostic teachers who taught dualism (the soul is good, but the body is evil). Thus, they said that Christ only "appeared" to come in the flesh and die on the cross. To say that God inhabited flesh would be to say that the body is not inherently evil, and that it DOES matter what we do with our body.

Ancient gnostic Valentinus said, "Gold, submerged in mud, is still gold."

He taught that it did not matter what we did with our body (mud), that our soul (gold) was still pure. This was to justify sexual immorality.

Where do you get (in Scripture, in Scripture referencing an antichrist) that an "antichrist" was someone who taught that God is three persons?

Scripture states it is one who denies Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.

Respectfully,

-Sonny

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

What An Endeavor

November 2 2010, 2:35 PM 

Bless you Sonny in trying for a meaningful dialog with Ken. I believe that Ken spoke in tongues in his earlier life. It just hasn't completely left him yet.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: What An Endeavor

November 2 2010, 5:23 PM 

Dave,

Sonny would make a good example for you, i.e., in trying for a meaningful dialog with anyone. You still "speak in tongues." A good example of that form of speaking is the assertion of yours that whatever is not forbidden is authorized and is pleasing to God.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Need Some Help

November 3 2010, 12:54 PM 

Donnie,
I can translate that last response from you, if only you would let me know what language it is in.
Thanks!
Oh, and what I could decipher of your message, let me ask you this....why would you take it upon yourself to make instrumental music sinful, when God hasn't specified it to be a sin?
Galatians 5
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

OBVIOUS Donnie.......Is instrumental music shown to be a sin in Galatians 5?
You are accusing me of saying "...whatever is not forbidden is authorized and is pleasing to God."
What about you making instrumental music a sin where God has not? You are adding to the Word of God by saying instrumental music is a sin.
No matter what you think.....you can't and will not do that. You don't have the authority to do so.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.25

Dogma and Anti-Christ

November 2 2010, 9:41 PM 

I made the point from numerous quotes including ALL of the salutations that there are two "actors" implicit in the meaning of "intercessor." That intercessor between God and man is the man Jesus Christ. There is:

One God the Father in Heaqven
On Son whom God HATH MADE both Lord and Christ.

There is LOGICALLY no "spirit" person which mediates between any father and his son.

John who said that the NAME of the "another Comforter" is "Jesus Christ the Righteous."

Also said that anti-Christ is one who denies the Father-Son pair.

Trinitarians say that Jesus the Son always existed as a PERSON and that the Holy Spirit always existed as a PERSON and God the Father always existed as a PERSON. They are "One" only in the sense that they have friendly relations. John Mark Hicks says that THEY all have their own "center of consciousness." That means that Father has His Spirit, and Jesus has His Spirit and the Holy Spirit has his spirit. Since spirits are persons then the Spirit's Spirit must have his own Spirit. I think Benny Hin worships 9 or 12 PEOPLE.

Those, says all of the Bible and those who invented the concept of trinity makes them ANTI Christ.

Now, Dogma. In romans 15 Paul used the Greek "Areskos" or Latin "Placeo." That means that the group DOES NOT have autonomy about what to teach. It does not have authority to use any of the hypocritic or performing arts and artists.

Dogma excludes anything which is not included when Jesus said "Command them to TEACH what I have commanded to be taught."

[linked image]

Anything that comes out of human imagination is outlawed as "doubtful disputations" in Romans 14 and is SELF-WILL. The "son" pattern of Jesus was that He was obedient to and spoke only what God the ONE Deity told him to speak. The "spirit" or Word is WITHOUT METER so the word often means and NOT ACCIDENTIALLY there is NO metrical material delivered from God: you couldn't SANG it if your unlawful salary depended on it. Therefore the Rhetoricians, singers and instrument players Jesus called HYPOCRITES are MERCHANDISING something of DOGMA because God HIDES himself from the WISE: Sophists meaning rhetoricians, singers, guitar players, flute tooters or whatever.

This is what I call the Lucifer Principle. And, since the Judas bag contained mouthpieces of wind instruments, the musicators must do the Judas Maneuver.

 
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