Hezekiah's Plague-Stopping Exorcism: not commandedNovember 4 2010 at 11:14 PM
|Ken Sublett (Login Ken.Sublett)|
from IP address 22.214.171.124
Because it is hard to stop typing, I want to post a bit of the PATTERNISM referenced here and used by Rick Atchley, Chris Seidman and ALL of those lusting to use a ONE event out of almost 300 years to claim that a spirit told him that "God commanded instrumental praise and we must not be disobedient."
Their definition of needing instruments to get the ENERGY LEVEL UP is exactly charismatic ecstasy Paul called MADNESS.
First, for you who never read Exodus be aware that Acts 7 should alert you to the fact that because of SOMETHING at the Red Sea God "turned them over to worship the starry host." Now, if God turned them over to worship the starry host, and they worshipped the starry host in the wilderness, and they worshipped the starry host at Jerusalem (called Sodom and the mother of harlots), WHAT do you think is the NAME of the gods they worshipped when Hezekiah made them BURN GOATS instead of BURNING INFANTS.
I believe "a" spirit actually, literally spoke to Rick Atchley: how else could you imagine a man sowing discord among THOUSANDS of owners to turn the property over to others? If this is not a lying wonder proven by imposing the performance arts we probably will never have anything of such BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS.
Now, notice that the Levites were under the King and commanders of the Army.
This was the KING'S suggestion to God: the NOT-COMMANDED temple was the King's Shrine as with all national governments.
The Levite warriors STOOD IN RANKS during all of the atoning sacrifices with NO INSTRUMENTS.
Only when the BURNED THE GOATS did the Levites make a great, crashing noise to signal all civillians that they had better NOT be caught inside the walls behind which God quarantined this horror.
So, you (maybe not YOU) can see that they stood in RANKS but when they made instrumental NOISE it was by the almost 300 year old command of David who assigned the Levites (an old infant burning cult in Egypt) to use the instruments.
Can you now see that when people HAVE NOT turned to Christ they are unable, from Mount Sinai, onward able to read BLACK text on BROWN paper.
Then you can understand that STRONG DELUSIONS produces LYING WONDERS which are "religious rituals" claiming that their theatrical and musical performance is FROM God.
Re: Hezekiah's Plague-Stopping Exorcism: not commanded
|November 5 2010, 3:04 AM |
Again, I respectfully disagree.
And this time, it is not even an interpretation issue or taking out of context issue or OT vs. NT debate but a matter of reading DIRECTLY from the text you are using.
If you do not believe in IM, this text is not one for making that point. God is not only permitting (reluctantly or not), but actually commands this through his prophets.
2 Chronicles 29:25b - "for so was THE COMMANDMENT OF THE LORD by the prophets."
Your logic would result in throwing out the prophets, since God was working here through Nathan and Gad, and also Hezekiah and formerly David (context now dead). Do we throw out the law of Moses because God speaks through him? Furthermore, David is referenced 59 times in the N.T., more than any other O.T. figure, and in a positive light. Why are David's 70+ psalms and the other 75 or so from other writers not from God through them?
Just because David or a prophet or apostle says something does not mean it is not from God, especially when the text says "for so was the commandment of the LORD" which was simply revealed, as Scripture is, through men, here "by the prophets". And, Paul says in 2 Timothy 3:16 that all Scripture is "God-breathed" or "inspired by God" (depending on one's translation).
Finally, when a Scripture(s) does not fit our beliefs, dogma and practices, should we change Scripture or humbly look in the mirror and allow it to change us and our beliefs? (You can decide whether this is similar to those who disregard an Acts 2:38 or Galatians 3:27 and what is DIRECTLY in the text.) And as I have stated on other threads, this does not mean one MUST WORSHIP with instruments, but that God accepts instrumental worship OFFERED TO HIM (not Nebuchadnezzar, Baal, starry host in Exodus, etc.) so we are not to condemn those Christians who ever worship God in their home or church family with them.
Thanks for even considering my perspective of the truth in this Scripture.
|November 6 2010, 4:32 PM |
2 Chronicles 29:24 King James Biblehttp://bible.cc/2_chronicles/29-24.htm
And the priests killed them, and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel: for the king commanded [that] the burnt offering and the sin offering [should be made] for all Israel.
New International Version (©1984)
The priests then slaughtered the goats and presented their blood on the altar for a sin offering to atone for all Israel
, because the king had ordered the burnt offering and the sin offering for all Israel.
2 Chronicles 29:25 King James Biblehttp://bible.cc/2_chronicles/29-25.htm
And he set the Levites
in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for [so was] the commandment of the LORD by his prophets.
Sonny: Are you actually trying to use this verse in Chronicles as a proof-text for using instruments in the Christian Assembly? Are you also slaughtering goats as a sin offering, like the prior verse says, or just picking and choosing what is allowed in the public assembly? Are you also a Levite specifically, as the passage notes?
... what is this pal, some kind of hustle?
learn to do right!
encourage the oppressed.
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.
Song of Solomon:http://bible.cc/songs/1-1.htm
Threescore and ten bullocks, etc.
|November 7 2010, 1:37 AM |
Let us give Sonny more time to think about what the Christian assembly really means to him, along with "the blood of bulls and goats."
Meanwhile, I'm convinced that Sonny has been challenged by this statement: "There is not a single passage in the Old and New Testaments proving that there has ever been a directive or a commandment directly coming from God that His followers are to worship Him with musical devices and objects." NOTE: not even in the Old Testament.
Not to mention that: David, king of Israel, was a very skilled musician; he invented to himself instruments of music (Amos 6:5); and he [not God] ordained musical instruments (II Chron. 29:27).
There's more to say about why there are those who contend (against Scripture) that using musical devices and objects in the gathering of NT saints is permitted.
Meanwhile, let's mention the burden of bringing animals to/into the assembly. Here's a summary of the number of burnt offerings which "the congregation" brought (cf. II Chron. 29:32,33):
(1) 70 bullocks
(2) 100 rams
(3) 200 lambs
(4) 600 oxen (consecrated things)
(5) 3000 sheep (consecrated things)
Wasn't it cumbersome? I think so because the following states:
 But the priests were too few, so that they could not flay all the burnt offerings: wherefore their brethren the Levites did help them, till the work was ended, and until the other priests had sanctified themselves: for the Levites were more upright in heart to sanctify themselves than the priests.
 And also the burnt offerings were in abundance,with the fat of the peace offerings, and the drink offerings for every burnt offering. So the service of the house of the LORD was set in order.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Re: Threescore and ten bullocks, etc.
|November 7 2010, 8:56 AM |
Clearly, as 2 Chron. 29 shows, instrumental music accompanied the animal sacrifices and thus accompanied the religious rituals of the Mosaic Law. Yet those Christians today who embrace instrumental music have taken it upon themselves to discard the animal sacrifices and retain the instrumental music. It would seem that if people choose to practice anything that was associated with the religious rituals of the Mosaic Law, they would practice all the rituals that pertained to the Mosaic Law.
Of course, people reason that since Christ became the ultimate and final sacrifice, then animal sacrifices are no longer required in Christian worship. Alright, since IM once accompanied those sacrifices and the sacrifices are now obsolete (as well as many other rituals that are now obsolete), then we should logically conclude that the IM is likewise obsolete. Unless people prefer to practice a shallow, pick-and-choose religion based on their personal preferences, why continue the practice of IM that once accompanied the now-obsolete animal sacrifices?
Re: Threescore and ten bullocks, etc.
|November 7 2010, 8:13 PM |
Worse yet is the fact:
(1) That burnt offerings and blood sacrifices were instituted by God;
(2) But that the use of musical instruments was NEVER commanded or directed by God to be used in worship.
II Chron. 29, describing the events that occurred involving David's instruments of music, and Psalm 150, listing a number of instruments to "praise the Lord" with (man's wishful thinking, no doubt) do not indicate that mechanical worship was/is God-directed. Those and other passages used by instrumental music lovers, suggesting a "praise the Lord with ..." do not prove that the activity is God-directed, unless God Himself has said so.
Mature Christians should not be easily deluded by the expression "unto the Lord" mentioned in the text. There are examples in the Old Testament of "unto the Lord" maneuvers that were not pleasing "unto the Lord":
(1) "And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me. And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron. And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted, and brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets, all jewels of gold: and every man that offered offered an offering of gold unto the LORD." (Exo. 32:2,3; 35:22)
(2) "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not." (Lev. 10:1)
Yes, burnt offerings and blood sacrifices as God's ordinances for His people under the old covenant are "obsolete."
But the use of musical instruments in the gathering of saints cannot now be obsolete because its operation was NEVER God-directed in the first place. It has not been and is still not God-directed.
|November 7 2010, 9:37 PM |
The generally accepted meaning of the practice of "proof-texting" is to take passages out of context to apply in some way that the text is not really addressing. To say that this text alone definitely means Christians today can or must worship God with instruments is not what I am saying. However, I am saying 1. That to use this text to say God condemns instrumental music (as Brother Sublett is on this thread) is a misuse of it. The text does not communicate that God rejects IM, but the exact opposite (at least for that time). 2. That this Scripture, along with all other Scriptures on singing in the Old and New Testament, including the Psalms and Ephesians and Colossians which speak of singing psalms, never say (or imply) that the use of instruments to worship God with a psalm must now cease. This is an interpretive slant that I and others have been adamant about but wrong.
Am I a Levite? Well... I am a member of the "holy priesthood" (1 Peter 2:5, 9). God has taken me and all Christians, in our moral filth, and transformed us into holy worshippers (priests).
|November 7 2010, 10:11 PM |
As priests we worship in the PLACE of our own spirit or mind.
Paul said to make melody IN THE MIND or spirit.
A priest does not play instruments: they blow horns.
The Levites--an old infant burning cult from Egypt never ceased--were not permitted NEAR or in any holy place EVEN to clean out the garbage left over from the temple's use by the Assyrians: they would have brought their "vessels" meaning pots or psaltery into the holy places.
A Levite who went into the Holy Place at any time but especially with an instrument was to be EXECUTED.
A Psalm is a SONG
It CAN be accompanied by the VOICE
or by a harp or STRINGED instrument.
Psalmos also appears in the LXX as equivalent to the Hebrew word neginah . This Hebrew term is used to describe a wide variety of songs. Neginah is translated by psalmos in Lam 3:14 (song), in Lam 5:14 (music) and in Ps 69:12 (song). It is striking to observe that in the LXX translation of Lam 3:14 and Ps 69:12, psalmos, or its verbal form, is used for songs that are not only uninspired but are in fact the product of the wicked, even drunkards, who mocked God and His word. The Hebrew term neginah is used elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures of: the songs of the wicked, Job 30:9 (song); the inspired praise of God, Psalm 61 title (Neginah-a song performed on a stringed instrument); and the uninspired praisd of the Lord composed by King Hezekiah, Is 38:20 (my songs).
.....Lam 3:12 He hath bent his bow, and set me as a mark for the arrow.
.....Lam 3:13 He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins.
.....Lam 3:14 I was a derision to all my people; and their song all the day.
.....Lam 3:15 He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.
.....Lam 3:16 He hath also broken my teeth with gravel stones, he hath covered me with ashes.
.....Lam 3:17 And thou hast removed my soul far off from peace: I forgat prosperity.
Prophetic of Jesus as was the JUDAS musical attack in Psalm 41
Psa. 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up;
.....and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.
H2781 cherpâh kher-paw' From H2778 ; contumely, disgrace, the pudenda:rebuke, reproach (-fully), shame.
H2778 châraph khaw-raf' A primitive root; to pull off, that is, (by implication) to expose (as by stripping); specifically to betroth (as if a surrender); figuratively to carp at, that is, defame; denominatively (from H2779 ) to spend the winter:betroth, blaspheme, defy, jeopard, rail, reproach, upbraid.
Psa. 69:10 When I wept, and chastened my soul with fasting, that was to my reproach.
Psa. 69:11 I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them.
Psa. 69:12 They that sit in the gate speak against me;
.....and I was the song of the drunkards.
Paul outlawed SELF-pleasure (Areskos or Placeo) which creates mental excitement which he connected to the REPROACHES of Jesus. Those words outlaw all of the performance speaking, singing, acting, playing instruments or any of the HYPOCRITIC arts. You cannot do SCHOOL OF THE WORD when the children mock Jesus with music AS prophesied.
Psallo means PLUCK with your fingers but never with a GUITAR PICK: You cannot Psalm or Psallo with a flute, drum, organ or piano. ALL of the instrumentalists proof texts speak of an older male plucking his harp trying to seduce a younger male whose hair had been plucked. Or, in the words of Paul, he may have been emasculated and turned into a woman.
"Only women and perverted males can fall into it." God GUARDED the spiritual people by not making ANY of His words metrical.
|November 7 2010, 10:56 PM |
Thanks for the re. I have no problem with free speech, especially as long as we maintain that the Bible is our source for authority and guidance. The idea of playing instruments, particularly in a public assembly as a show, does not strike me as the most humbling of actions a Christian can contibute to a lost world seemingly out of control, without the LORD Jesus Christ
James 4:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=humble&version1=9&searchtype=all&bookset=2&limit=bookset
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
As far as spiritualizing the notion that you are indeed a Levite in a "spiritual sense", even if that may be the case, it still does not wash, the verse is not speaking of any type of "spiritual" Levites obviously, but literal ones of the tribe.
But, I do encourage you to keep your Bible handy and keep studying. TY.
|November 8 2010, 12:47 AM |
I do not, but more importantly, God does not condone promoting IM or just singing, nor prayer or preaching/teaching, or anything that is done as "a show". God will be the best judge of this in each scenario and not you or me. But this does not mean that every context is such and that all singing, worship, etc. is wrong. The same is true for emotion (not trying to get on a tangent but just explain my perspective). Our heritage (I assume you are also C of C?) has pretty much been negative towards expressing emotion in worship, period.
Perhaps it doesn't wash for you, nor maybe for others on this site but in the O.T. the Levites had special access to God for service/worship in the tabernacle and then temple. Now, there is no distinction as Christians. We are all Levites/priests.
I don't know any Christians who worship with instruments in an assembly who believe they are contradicting Scriptural authority - maybe you do. We can worship God in song or silence, in prayer with or without fasting, in giving generously whether that means exactly 10% or for some of us it means much more, whether being at a Wednesday night Bible class at a "church" building or studying with a few others or by ones self in a home, or maybe serving or visiting someone instead. Me - on WN I drive a church van of mostly children and also teach a class, but this does not make me more spiritual than someone who does not or isn't even there for a myriad of reasons. I am blessed by being there and hope to be a blessing to others, but this and many other things should not be "bound" on others as a "yoke". I see saying one must sing with instruments or must sing with microphones or must have a song/worship leader or how many, etc. as all falling under this category. These are judgment matters for elders and all Christians to decide. On the other hand, I do see faith in Christ as a must and not sinning so that grace may abound as a must, forgiving and showing mercy, etc. because these are clearly taught (not saying these are the only things, but are examples).
My Bible is handy. My problem in the past and still in the present has not been my Bible, but myself.
Also, others have helped and hindered me in learning Scripture versus opinions about Scripture.
Thus, as you mentioned James 4:10, we must be humble when we read, and humble about what we believe, let alone, say and teach to others.
Christians Only Need Jesus as Their Sacrifice
|November 8 2010, 6:37 PM |
William Crump spoke of "Alright, since IM once accompanied those sacrifices and the sacrifices are now obsolete (as well as many other rituals that are now obsolete), then we should logically conclude that the IM is likewise obsolete."
William, you cannot and will get away with that sort of illogical reasoning.
First, tell us, where would you get your reasoning that the two are tied together?.....and YES William, Christ DID do away with ALL/ANY sacrifices when He died for mankind. For those who believe that man should also practice animal sacrifices if they choose to follow the example of instrumental music actually shows that they actually don't appreciate what Christ did. That kind of thinking comes from a twisted mind and is dishonorable to our Lord Jesus Christ.
The two are NOT related in any way......so forget that lame illogical preschool thinking.
David used instrumental music to please God and the New Covenant with our Lord and Savior does not preclude that we abolish the practice of instrumental music, but it DOES ALWAYS mean that we will never can go back to animal sacrifices......or since I can speak for me and not William Crump I can truly say that I only need Christ. Again, maybe William Crump believes that he still needs the animal sacrifices.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Re: Christians Only Need Jesus as Their Sacrifice
|November 8 2010, 11:59 PM |
It's quite obvious that Dave still has not yet enrolled in that anger management course.
No congregational singing "tunefully" until mid 1500: too late.
|November 8 2010, 7:31 PM |
God is God and we are not: if we could compose our own songs and sermons then Jesus wasted His Life because in Isaiah he informed the READER or DISCIPLE:
Isa. 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Is. 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Is. 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
THIS IS WHAT PROMPTED JOHN CALVIN TO CALL FOR A RESTORATION OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST.
Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
(Kenneth Latourette, A History of Christianity, p. 760).
"In Gnostic circles religious poetry arose to compete with the Old Testament Psalms. Some Catholics therefore distrusted the composition of hymns after this pattern, on the ground that they might smack of heresy. Yet from at least the second century hymns were written by the orthodox which, like their Gnostic counterparts, employed the forms of Greek poetry...
Until near the end of the fourth century, in the services of the Catholic Church
only the Old Testament Psalms and
the hymns or canticles from the New Testament were sung:
the other hymns were for personal family, or private use.
Gradually there were prepared versical paraphrases of the Psalms, hymns
with lines of equal length, and hymns which were acrostic." (Latourette, Christianity. p. 207).
From Ephraim the Syrian and Aphrahat the Persian Sage
To Ephraim pertains the high and unique distinction of having originated-or at least given its living impulse to- a new departure in sacred literature; and that, not for his own country merely, but for Christendom.
From him came, if not the first idea, at all events the first successful example,
of making song an essential constituent of public worship,
and an exponent of theological teaching;
and from him it spread and prevailed through
the Eastern Churches, and affected even those of the West.
To the Hymns, on which chiefly his fame rests, the Syriac ritual in all its forms owes much of its strength and richness; and to them is largely due the place which Hymnody holds throughout the Church everywhere.
And hence it has come to pass that, in the Church everywhere, he stands as the representative Syrian Father, as the fixed epithet appended to his name attests-" Ephraim the Syrian,"-the one Syrian known and reverenced in all Christendom.
From a few lines of Proba's work can be seen the problems with this approach: little of what was created could justifiably be placed alongside the great works of the past, and since that was an implicit target the failure to meet it was embarrassing;
more pressingly, such Christianisations did not appeal to the highly educated, who preferred to read the imitated originals, and did not appeal to Christians who would not otherwise have read the originals, who needed something written to their own culture and not to that of a past elite.
This kind of imitation had its brief flourishing at the time of the emperor Julian, who forbade Christians to teach pagan works, but had no lasting effect.
The only question is "how much can I get by with?" Sorry you musicators missed the PROPHET then you could understand the PROPHECIES MADE MORE PERFECT and understand that "private interpretation" or further expounding is the MARK of a false teacher: DON'T feed him.
Re: No congregational singing "tunefully" until mid 1500: too late.
|January 28 2011, 11:46 AM |
This is your best piece yet Ken. Do you have any more material on the subject? Keep up the fine work.