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Sonny
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: The Bottom Line

December 6 2010, 2:43 AM 

For further discussion, this post has been copied from this thread:
         "Venting Machine: Anger Emission Control."

Author: Sonny (no login) 99.186.93.107
Post: "Re: The Bottom Line" December 3 2010, 7:38 PM


===============================

Brother Fred,

Are you implying that we are actually allowed to study the Bible for ourself and think for ourself and not be under the tyranny of what others say it all means? Does this mean that neither Sonny nor Brother Waddey, Crump, Sublett and Cruz should mandate what every Christian believe and do as much as encouraging people to read, study, dig, ask questions, dialogue with others, have convictions, yet continue to be humble and willing to reassess your views and willing to listen and respect the perspective of others?

Why do you think Nicodemus struggled to be born again? It would require humility and admitting he had been wrong as a self-righteous Pharisee.

I know. I am a recovering legalist who had it all figured out and there was no grace for doctrinal error even if unintentional and no grace for lifestyle mistakes. Jesus saves us from our sin at baptism but then we have no avenue to confess and be forgiven (1 John 1:9) after baptism. I saw repentance as a one time event and confession and missed that we must continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and that no matter how much we try and how pure our heart that we fall short of God's glory every single day. Praise God for those who have loved me out of my zealous ignorance.

Now, Brother Fred. I ultimately agree with you and your convictions and admire your passion and fire for truth and focus on grace. However, I am going to humbly and gently ask you to be a little less forceful in some of your statements (not talking about this post but some previous ones). No one will be led closer to Christ and truth if they think we are more combative than caring, and understand I am not suggesting you are uncaring but it may occasionally come across that way. Love you bro.

-Sonny

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

God's Grace Is Not Equal to Musical Noise

December 6 2010, 2:57 AM 

For further discussion, this post has been copied from this thread:
         "Venting Machine: Anger Emission Control."

Author: Donnie (Login Donnie.Cruz) 170.141.177.53
Post: "God's Grace Is Not Equal to Musical Noise" December 3 2010, 4:27 PM


===============================

Brother Fred,

You have become an expert on associating God's grace, the blood of the Lamb and man's righteousness, even the feeling of superiority (or a lack thereof) with, of all controversial issues, instrumental music.

There is no controversy in the wonderful grace of God until a professed Christian misuses and abuses it. There is no controversy in the blood of the Redeemer until a theologian teaches that one outside of Christ receives redemption in His blood and is added to the church outside of belief, repentance and putting on Christ in baptism.

The operation of mechanical music in the assembly of saints is a controversial issue as there is/has been no directive from God in the entire Bible (including both Old and New Testaments) that He is to be worshipped with the noise of inanimate, lifeless musical objects [the musician's toys]. On the contrary, throughout history, man has wanted and desired for such form of idolatry -- musical idolatry -- by (including) both "certain men of God" [David, king of Israel and musician, but not any of Christ's apostles] and the pagans [Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon].

Feel free to discuss this IM issue at this link:


St. Paul - how to deal with a joker (change agent) @ your local church

 
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Fred Whaley
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Fred is Fighting for Respect for The Word of God and NOT Teachings of Men

December 6 2010, 3:04 AM 

For further discussion, this post has been copied from this thread:
         "Venting Machine: Anger Emission Control."

Author: Fred Whaley (no login) 173.162.22.85
Post: Fred is Fighting for Respect for The Word of God and NOT Teachings of Men
December 3 2010, 5:33 PM


===============================

D.C. what makes one sin or form of idolatry different from another? I guess what I am thinking and asking is what makes one sin unforgiveable? As you can see by now I do not believe instrumental worship is sin or idolatry but if it is why can it not be forgiven but greed materialism Phariseeism legalism gossip adultery lying stealing and many many more sins all can be? How you equate worshipping God to being WORSE than these is perplexing. I guess that theology and soteriology works for you but it does not for me. And just because the music issue is controversial does not make it wrong. I am going to use "the Jesus approach" on you by asking questions and letting you answer and hopefully you will come to the truth by my wise approach. I have seven questions I want you to speak on and let me and everyone else reading this know what your position is concerning truth and grace and I think you will begin to see my side and we can be brothers. I have almost given up on me and Doctor Crump ever being buds. He does not like me holding him accountable and refuses to humble himself but I have not given up yet.

#1) Is a teenager (someone's grandchild) who has been baptized and is trying to live by the Bible not a Christian if they ever go to a Christian instrumental Gaither concert? (Especially if they do not think it is a sin and are wholeheartedly trying to live by the Bible and not intentionally defying something in their understanding of God and His Word.)

#2) What about an adult? (Meaning is there a difference based on age and what is that difference if there is one and why?)

#3) Is it just as wrong (or worse) to be at Winterfest or a Gaither concert as to be at a Rock Concert or at a party where people are drinking beer and getting drunk?

#4) Can a Christian (baptized believer) be forgiven for ever getting drunk or lying?

#5) Can a Christian be forgiven for worshipping God with an instrument? (Since you call it idolatry.)

#6) Can a Christian be forgiven for forsaking the assembly for one or more Sundays? (I assume you agree with Hebrews 10:25.)

#7) Is it better to be at an assembly where you disagree with part of the worship (even if it is one where all worship is without instruments but you think they should be or vice versa) or just the same to go somewhere where you might disagree with something as to not go anywhere?

D.C. please answer all 7 by identifying using our wonderful number system. If you need a few days or weeks on this there is no rush as I know I have mentioned a lot of questions for us to debate. AND if you would also like to keep this message on this forum but place at the bottom that the message is also appearing in that other forum along with you future reply as to not continue this under the venting forum as you were suggesting that is fine. But I would like for this message to STILL APPEAR HERE so readers can see my response to you now at this time.

Fred Whaley

"If you are in the parking lot and have still not quit arguing with the people on the porch, you haven't left the Church of Christ yet."

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.141.177.53

Change Agents Detest Only the Expression of What They Promote: "Musical Idolatry"

December 6 2010, 5:01 PM 

While the Scripture is explicit about idolatry in the form of worship of graven images of our God or of the other gods, the Scripture also contains references, inferences or implications concerning other forms of idolatry. Scripture mentions worship of the sun, moon, and stars which, to man throughout history and civilizations, are the supposed powers of nature (God's creation); thus, nature worship among the heathens -- another form of idolatry. Fetishism, as related to the worship of trees, rivers, hills, stones, etc. (God's creation), is another form of idolatry. The love of money, the root of all evil, is another form of idolatry.

When New Testament saints are no longer satisfied with "SPEAKING to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Eph. 5:19); experience the inanimate, lifeless "Musical Instrument Dependency Syndrome" (M.I.D.S.) to assist in the teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER in songs (Col. 3:16); put more emphasis on the concert-like, entertaining musical content rather than letting "the word of Christ dwell in you richly" (Col. 3:16) -- that certainly is another form of idolatry: musical idolatry.

What matters not is what you believe regarding musical worship. Yeah, right, it didn't matter to David, king of Israel and a skilled MUSICIAN, who (not God) invented and ordained musical instruments. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon did the same thing and used the dulcimer and sackbut and other musical devices in worship of the golden image. But God has NEVER directed His followers to worship Him with mechanical music. You will not find such a directive in either the Old Testament or the New Testament. It certainly is a man-made (by either a "man of God" or pagan) concoction. Yes, from God's standpoint in the O.T., instruments were used in warfare, in journey, in a gathering call to worship [they didn't have the internet, etc., then].

As far as sins are concerned, I don't believe it was necessary for the Holy Scripture to list all the sins of the world. Man cannot redeem himself from sins -- let's leave the forgiveness of sins to God and the redeeming blood of our Savior. Man should not speculate as to what or when sins are forgiven.

I agree: let's use "the Jesus approach" to settling YOUR issue with "what the Scripture does NOT say 'NOT TO" and, therefore, it is authorized." I do not have an issue with what Jesus said about worshiping the Father in spirit and in truth -- it is that simple. But you do have an issue when you begin to speculate, opine, and make an executive decision with regard to using musical objects and devices in the assembly. How much else did Jesus have to say regarding worship?


ANSWERS to your QUESTIONS:

#1). A teenager who has put on Christ in baptism has received forgiveness of his past sins in the blood of Christ became a Christian and a member of the body of Christ. He remains a Christian so long as he remains faithful. It is not Fred Whaley, but the Scripture warns: "lean not unto thine own understanding." Going to a "Christian instrumental Gaither concert" is one thing [as in going to watch a religious movie]; but going to "concert" to "worship" is another. Fred, do you wish you were a teenager so you could go to a concert at the Gaither Worship Center?

#2). Oops, cf. answer #1.

#3). Winterfest or a Gaither concert or a Rock concert -- they're all essentially similar. Religious or not, it's about entertainment and having fun. I would have no problem with Winterfest when a specific period is devoted to worship without the musical idolatry, when there is teaching of the unadulterated gospel of Christ. (Go to Jeff Walling's congregation's website concerning instrumental music, even in gatherings where Walling is the leader -- he is in opposition to the website's statement regarding this matter. His "indoctrination" is something to watch and guard against.)

#4). Yes, if he repents and confesses.

#5). Yes, if he repents and confesses. The mis-LEADER ought to do the same.

#6). Yes, if he repents and confesses.

#7). Worship is an individual matter whether privately or in an assembly. Also, part of my response is a question for you: (a) Is it better to incorporate instrumental music where there isn't in an assembly, or (b) Is it better to confiscate all the musical instruments already being used in the assembly to make it non-instrumental?

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: Change Agents Detest Only the Expression of What They Promote: "Musical Idolatry"

December 6 2010, 6:54 PM 

I applaud you Brother Fred for your effort to dialogue and have iron sharpen iron.

Brother Cruz,

1. Would you say that missing all Sunday evening services is a sin? (If so, approximately 50% of all (inc. most conservative churches) in C of C are outside of God's grace right there because they only go on Sunday morning's and Wednesday's.)

2. Do you believe if one commits sexual immorality that their confession and repentance should be public? (I have heard different perspectives on this one.)

-Sonny

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Change Agents Detest Only the Expression of What They Promote: "Musical Idolatry"

December 8 2010, 1:28 AM 

1. So specific about "missing all Sunday evening services," huh? Well, when I was a "legalist" [ happy.gif -- just kidding].... No, it is not a sin, especially if the designated hour for gathering is to sing rah-rah-rah "praise music." Many folks, especially the youth, are deluded by the notion that there is no praise without singing and rhythmic handclapping. The Christian ought to do more praising in private prayer than in a gathering. (I'd be interested in knowing about the origin of "Sunday evening services.") Fellowship with other followers of Christ is a good practice; they all can agree on a convenient time and location. God's family is the church or school of the Bible.

2. Scripture does not isolate sexual immorality from other types of sins. There are chapters that list sins. "Confession" is not that frequently mentioned in Scripture, but note the following:
"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (James 5:16)

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (I John 1:9)
If a sin is public knowledge, then, confession and repentance should be public. Both passages are in that context (be public) as in the case of the sin of envying, strife, defiling tongue, adultery, etc., we find the following expressions: "brethren ... my brethren ... ye [plural] ... yourselves ... one against another ... one for another."

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Change agents are committed to change the church of Christ

January 4 2011, 4:14 AM 

Below is a compilation of information taken from various sources, including articles and books written by gospel preachers and teachers in mainline/mainstream churches of Christ: Alan E. Highers, Wayne Jackson, John Waddey, Gary McDade, Jimmy Ferguson, Mike Hixson, Winford Claiborne, William Woodson, David Sain, Dan Winkler, David R. Pharr, et al.

The compiled information will reveal characteristics and activities of change agents infiltrating, subverting the truth, fostering schism and potentially acquiring your congregation. The purpose here is to have a means by which a congregation being subjected to a well-planned "transition" or "transformation" program of/by these agents may be evaluated.

Of course, the overall effect of the Community Church scheme for church growth varies among its victims. For example, an "infected" church may adopt only a small segment from the lists. But that segment may pinpoint or isolate the factors that have caused that particular church to grow or dwindle.

So, if your congregation has been subjected to the change agents' scheme, would you be able to identify or determine from the lists where your congregation stands on particular conflicts and issues?

The following topics are for your consideration (with a list of items under each topic):


A. AGENTS ADVOCATING CHANGE: THEIR OBJECTIVES AND ACTIVITIES
B. CRITICISM FOR EFFORTS OF THE PAST: EXAGGERATED AND ENCOURAGED
C. COMMUNITY CHURCH: MODEL FOR CHURCH OF CHRIST IN TRANSITION
D. MODERNIZING THE CHURCH: THE SECULAR- OR CULTURE-DRIVEN APPROACH
E. BIBLE TRANSLATION & OTHER SOURCES: NEW TESTAMENT PRINCIPLES DEVALUED
F. CHURCH LEADERSHIP, ORGANIZATION, GOVERNMENT: EXPERIMENTATION
G. WORSHIP: THE TRENDING "MUSICAL" WORSHIP CONTENT AND CASUALNESS
H. THE LORD'S SUPPER AND SOCIAL FELLOWSHIP -- MORE THAN JUST A MEMORIAL
I. DOCTRINES DERIVED FROM DENOMINATIONS: BIBLICAL TRUTH BEING PERVERTED



A. AGENTS ADVOCATING CHANGE: THEIR OBJECTIVES AND ACTIVITIES

  1. Agents of change are busy rewriting our church history to: . . .
    • Paint a different picture of the goals and intentions of our forefathers and
    • Wish to cast their efforts as a "unity movement" and
    • Depict them as seeking fellowship with and not rejecting denominationalism
  2. Prominent change agents are invited by churches and schools as guest speakers: Rubel Shelly, Max Lucado, Lynn Anderson, Jeff Walling, Joe Beam, et al.
  3. Interlopers must be resolved not to leave; others against change must leave
  4. Interlopers are not obligated to start their own from scratch
  5. Young people are the future of the church; their needs must be met with urgency
  6. Homebuilders (parents in their 30's & 40's) are the key to a successful program
  7. Transition is a long-range mission accomplished after passing of older generation
  8. Their goal is conquest and dominance of the entire brotherhood
  9. Their scheme is to first transform large congregations
  10. They (change agents) insure that buildings, facilities and property are not acquired until fully paid
  11. They insure that the subverted will not overthrow their schemes and plans
  12. They are never to admit being false teachers so as not to be rejected
  13. They resort to warning the non-accepting brethren to "get over it"
  14. They claim to be helping the church to disguise their fomented chaos and strife
  15. They rush forward to offer a fix to disguise problems they have created
  16. They send a team to resolve conflicts caused by their changes
  17. They advocate that leading and guidance emanate from the Holy Spirit
  18. They label the unwilling to submit as narrow, bigoted, legalistic and Pharisaical
  19. They label the unwilling to submit as "traditionalists" and them as "progressives"
  20. They accuse the unwilling to submit as claiming to be the perfect church
  21. They claim to have found the true nature of the church
  22. They abandon the concept of restoring the original New Testament church
  23. They preach that the absence of a "thou shalt not" means a practice is condoned
  24. They sever ties with our predecessors as much as possible; discredit their efforts
  25. They label the unwilling to submit as the ones inconsiderate and without love
  26. They emphasize "fellowshipping" [among the sects]; "brotherhood" is exclusive
  27. They share fellowship with denominational preachers, churches and events
  28. They do not refer to "the Lord's church"--that is being exclusive of others
  29. They do not refer to the church as the kingdom and also to the reign of Christ
  30. They refer to the church only as "our faith tradition" just as others have theirs
  31. They define "freedom" as a way to ignore Bible teachings on worship restrictions
  32. They feel extended "brotherhood" should encompass the Christian Churches
  33. They implement a market-driven program to provide what people want or seek
  34. They divide an existing congregation so as to implement the "community" model
  35. They have less contact and fellowship with mainline churches of Christ

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Change agents are committed to change the church of Christ (continued)

January 5 2011, 4:01 AM 



B. CRITICISM FOR EFFORTS OF THE PAST: EXAGGERATED AND ENCOURAGED

  1. A superior way of "doing church" has been discovered
  2. Those over 50 are stubborn, close-minded and impervious to change
  3. The church of Christ of the Restoration Movement is just another denomination
  4. Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone founded the "Church of Christ"
  5. The church of Christ is a real, bona fide, but pitiful denomination
  6. The church of Christ is the poorest of the evangelical denominations
  7. Ties with those noble saints who went before us are severed
  8. The faith and preaching of predecessors are incompatible with those of change
  9. Men of Restoration were imperfect men and often taught erroneously

C. COMMUNITY CHURCH: MODEL FOR CHURCH OF CHRIST IN TRANSITION

  1. Dismiss or discredit the biblical name "church of Christ"
  2. Despise and ridicule Christ's church and make it irrelevant
  3. De-emphasize the glory and honor to Christ, the head and founder
  4. The name "church of Christ" is offensive to denominational groups
  5. Crave acceptance with neighbors of the evangelical churches
  6. Do not want to bear the stigma of being exclusive from the denominations
  7. Mask from the community any affiliation with other churches of Christ
  8. Choose the model of being a "non-denominational" community church
  9. Prefer to identify with other groups rather than with your own brethren
  10. One motive is to place little or no emphasis on doctrinal loyalty
  11. Open to exchange, substitute or employ ministers from other denominations
  12. Allow acceptance of denominational churches as in good standing with God
  13. Encourage fellowship with denominational bodies
  14. The trend or direction is away from New Testament Christianity
  15. Transform congregations into charismatic, denominational churches
  16. Accept the new status of the church of Christ as a denomination

D. MODERNIZING THE CHURCH: THE SECULAR- OR CULTURE-DRIVEN APPROACH

  1. Celebrate Jesus' birthday, like it or not; observe the Christmas pagan holiday
  2. Celebrate the "special" annual resurrection of Christ on Easter Sunday
  3. Make Valentine's Day a church event--apart from but similar to a social event


 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Re: Change agents are committed to change the church of Christ (continued)

January 5 2011, 9:30 AM 

Uh oh...........my church has a Sweethearts Banquet every February for Valentine's Day. sad.gif We might as well quit on this Christian thing because of all the hoops the Bible makes us jump through (according to the (mis)interpretations at this site).

Fred Whaley

"If you are in the parking lot and have still not quit arguing with the people on the porch, you haven't left the Church of Christ yet."

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.157.35.11

Re: Change agents are committed to change the church of Christ (continued)

January 5 2011, 4:26 PM 

Fred wrote: "Uh oh...[three dots are sufficient] my church has a Sweethearts Banquet every February for Valentine's Day."

As I recall, Valentine's Day is not a "holy day" mentioned in the New Testament. Therefore, churches that "celebrate" it are among those "modern" churches that prefer the secular-driven or culture-driven approach about which Donnie wrote.

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Clapping for Fred

January 5 2011, 10:15 PM 

I believe that the more a church family together, then the better off it is. A sweetheart's banquet sounds SUPERB.
William Crump would call anything other than the passover worldly.
Just as Christians can make sommething wonderful out of Christmas, so too can they for Valentine's Day.
The best holidays is when Christians take it and use it for the Glory of God.
HALLELUJAH!!!


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Clapping for Fred

February 6 2011, 6:13 PM 

Dave,

Is your clapping for Fred rhythmic? Just like the rhythmic clapping that the "Praise Team" does when singing "I Belong to Jesus! I Belong to Jesus!"? I'm wondering, OK?

It's human nature to do or observe secular events. "Secular" doesn't necessarily mean "sinful," does it?

But Christians should not get "secular" and "spiritual" confused. Observance of the Lord's Supper on the first day of the week is spiritual; Valentine's Day is secular.

As a rule, drinking and driving don't mix.

The secular and the spiritual are not interchangeable.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Only one "uh-oh" from Fred?

January 5 2011, 10:20 PM 

Just one "uh-oh" to the "Deeds of the Change Agents"? [Let's not confuse that with the "Acts of the Apostles."] Not bad out of 60+ issues mentioned between A and D. Wait!!! We've got E thru I to do.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Jan 5, 2011 10:22 PM


 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

A though Z

January 5 2011, 11:53 PM 

One good thing about it Donnie, no one is twisting your arm to attend these worldly Christian events, are they now?
But you are the nosy type, aren't you? You have to go to the contemporary worship so you can REPORT your gossip here at concernedmembers. You don't go to worship, you gather ammo for your gossip column.
Isn't that a bit irreverent towards God? I guess it would be if you had a conscience.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: A though Z

February 8 2011, 1:07 AM 

Dave,

I don't mind going to a concert or to a "Christian concert." If I go to one, at least I do not confuse a concert with worship.

In regard to attending the "contemporary worship," I must remind you that I was there first. And so were the alienated brethren who were told to "get over it; we must move on" and left. And so were the other remaining "conservative" brethren -- they were there first.

The fact you STILL do not know is that it was the change movers and leaders that intruded; that implemented their unwanted, unnecessary, controversial, divisive "worship" programming against the will of many brethren.

And they're wondering if and when the brethren who left and sought fellowship somewhere else are coming back?

So, which is irreverent:

(1) coming to the assembly of saints to worship God in awe and reverence; to let the word of Christ "dwell in you richly"; to teach and admonish one another...

------------- or ----------------

(2) coming to the assembly to enjoy "musical worship"; to brag about self ("I Love You ... I Adore You, Beautiful One ... I Praise You [clap-clap, clap-clap-clap] ... I Dance for You, Lord"?

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Got to Win the World Over for Jesus

February 7 2011, 9:51 AM 

Donnie, notice where you said..."The secular and the spiritual are not interchangeable."

You can't win the world over for Jesus by hiding in a church building.
Just something for you to assuage that mass in your head called the brain.

Another one for you.....the church is not meant just to be a sanctuary for the saints but more importantly a hospital for the hopeless.

Tell me one good reason not to have a valentine's day dance at your church.
Remember that my request asks for a GOOD reason.

People know how to love because God showed them how to love.
Keep that in mind as you scratch your head looking for a VALID answer....that doesn't exist.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Got to Win the World Over for Jesus

February 9 2011, 2:59 AM 

Dave,

That's correct. I said it: "The secular and the spiritual are not interchangeable."

I think you misunderstood the meaning of "interchangeable." It means: "capable of replacing or changing places with something else."

Also, you should know that the church is not the building and vice versa. Hey, you can celebrate anything in the "church building," as have a Saint Valentine's Day dance.

Just know that your celebration is secular -- it is not spiritual.


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.230.86

Re: Got to Win the World Over for Jesus

February 9 2011, 12:15 PM 

Many congregations host secular events in the "church buildings," such as classes in fitness, finances, special diets, computers, all kinds of recreations, etc. There's nothing wrong with those events as such. The mistake many churches make is to give the impression that all secular events held in the "church buildings" are somehow "blessed" events; that is, they become "holy," especially when led by church officials, such as ministers, elders, deacons, or others "sanctfied" by the church hierarchy. Those churches apparently believe that, while people are jogging and sweating on a treadmill or becoming frustrated while learning how to use WordPerfect [sic], people will "come to know about Jesus." That notion is naive. If you want people to "know about Jesus" (preferably, to believe Him and obey Him in all things), pull people away from the worldly distractions of secular events and focus their full attention on the Gospel of Christ.

Imagine "teaching" the Gospel like this in an exercise class, while overweight folks struggle with the likes of pushups and deep knee bends: "OK, 1 and 2 and...Jesus loves you...3 and 4 and...Come to Jesus...5 and 6 and...He'll make you happy...7 and 8 and...He'll solve your problems...9 and 10 and...Give a shout...11 and 12 and...I say...13 and 14 and...Give a shout for Jesus!..."

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Worship God and Jesus Always

February 10 2011, 8:58 AM 

SOMEONE once said...."If you want people to "know about Jesus" (preferably, to believe Him and obey Him in all things), pull people away from the worldly distractions of secular events and focus their full attention on the Gospel of Christ."

Matthew22
37 Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment."

The problem with some people is that they believe that once they leave the church building that worship stops. If we truly obey God and love Him the way we are supposed to, then our worship never stops. If you can turn it on and turn it off, then something is perversely wrong. Do we not preach, by example and by mouth, and everywhere we go, about Jesus? I used to believe that the degree of worship may change, but not anymore.
When Jesus prayed in the garden, do you believe that His mindset was any different from when He was healing, or teaching?

 
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David Gustafson
(Login DavidGustafson)
207.157.10.118

What the Bible does not say

March 2 2011, 2:37 PM 

The Bible say this.
But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.


It does not say this.
But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE CHANGE AGENT FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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