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My Sources

November 11 2010 at 12:05 AM
Sonny  (no login)
from IP address 99.186.93.107

Whether intentionally or unintentionally, the thread "A Brief Historical Timeline Of The Genesis Of Change Agents In The Church Of Christ" has been set-up so that I cannot reply to Brother Cruz's statements and accusations about my information and a lack of sources, so here they are. -Sonny

"American Origins Of Churches Of Christ" by Richard Hughes, Nathan O. Hatch and David Edwin Harrell, Jr.
"Renewing God's People: A Concise History Of Churches Of Christ" by Gary Holloway and Douglas A. Foster
"The Stone-Campbell Movement: The Story Of The American Restoration Movement" by Leroy Garrett

 
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AuthorReply
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: My Sources

November 11 2010, 12:41 AM 

Sonny,

I was referring to the expression "change agent" or "change agents" that/when you conveniently labeled a "Central
Figure(s)" in "The Reform ('Change') Movement."

I would not have questioned or asked for sources had you not labeled those men as "change agents" in the Restoration Movement. In fact, it was the "Restoration Movement" -- not the "Reformation Movement" -- and you very well know that.

Since you've made your sources available anyway, I think that the reader would be interested wherever the expression "change agent(s)" was actually used in the sources.

As I already mentioned (and the reason why the message was posted unedited), the thread pertaining to the Restoration Movement is really important and worthy of discussion. So, you need to advise us in your response below as to what you would like to do with that thread, if you feel that it needs to be modified accordingly. The thread will be unlocked once the issue has been resolved.

Thanks for your understanding.

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

A Different Perspective?

November 12 2010, 1:47 AM 

From all I have read from many sources, the Campbells, Stone, and others used the term "reformation" as much or more than "restoration". They did not go by "The Great Pit Theory" (if the readers are familiar with this) that said somewhere between 150 A.D. and 1800 A.D. (people give various dates) that based on Catholicism and even in Protestantism (and "denominations") that the church had to be "restored". They (B.Stone, A.Campbell) believed the Christians in the various groups (Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian) were all Christians. This makes sense since they were of and worked among the various persuasions (examples: Cane Ridge Revival and Redstone Baptist Association). However, they believed churches were too divided based on creeds and dogma that needed to be abandoned and to be "Christians only". They saw themselves as agents of reform, or change, and not as restorationists. Furthermore, they would be better described as a "unity movement" that sought to bring Christians of different persuasions together rather than to say that people would not be Christians if they remained Methodist or Baptist.

Therefore, I believe it is more accurate to call what happened in North America in the 1800s a reformation movement (same concept as with Luther in the 15th-16th centuries). Even Martin Luther did not view his work as restoring as much as reforming.

Grace and peace.

-Sonny

 
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AM
(no login)
75.89.66.220

Re: A Different Perspective?

November 12 2010, 12:58 PM 

Even Martin Luther did not view his work as restoring as much as reforming.

Are we talking about the same Martin Luther?

*In Mein Kampf, Hitler listed Martin Luther as one of the greatest reformers. And similar to Luther in the 1500s, Hitler spoke against the Jews.

* Luther's 1543 book, "On the Jews and their lies" took Jewish hatred to a new level when he proposed to set fire to their synagogues and schools, to take away their homes, forbad them to pray or teach, or even to utter God's name. Luther wanted to "be rid of them" and requested that the government and ministers deal with the problem. He requested pastors and preachers to follow his example of issuing warnings against the Jews. He goes so far as to claim that "We are at fault in not slaying them" for avenging the death of Jesus Christ. Hitler's Nazi government in the 1930s and 40s fit Luther's desires to a tee. (Martin Luthers dirty little book: On Jews and their lies. A precursor to Nazism, by Jim Walker Aug 1996.)

 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.142.177.53

Re: A Different Perspective?

November 12 2010, 5:14 PM 

Sonny,

We already know your perspective. You want to label the "central figures" of the Restoration Movement as "change agents." You also want to rename the Restoration Movement as the Reformation Movement. That's not good. That is misleading. Should you now rewrite history by calling the 1500s event "Reformation Movement I" and the latter event "Reformation Movement II"?

No!!! That's hardly the case.

The Reformation Movement (cf. "95 theses" and other sources) had the reformation of the Roman Catholic Church as its main objective -- its corruption; protests against clerical abuses, especially in regard to indulgences; veneration of relics, purportedly 'including vials of the milk of the Virgin Mary'; etc. The unfortunate end result? The hundreds and hundreds of religious denominations.

The Restoration Movement emphasized leaving (not embracing) "denominationalism" behind and restoring the New Testament church, New Testament Christianity and abiding by New Testament principles and directives. The men and families of the Restoration Movement left their respective denominations and their denominational creeds, beliefs and practices and be Christians only [you're correct] and members of the church of the first century. They DID NOT found another denomination.

[Sonny, I believe that you know church history as well as anyone. But you continue to justify your use or misuse of the expression "change agents" in your post: "A Brief Historical Timeline Of The Genesis Of Change Agents In The Church Of Christ."]

Unless you have proof otherwise, I am convinced that when you quoted statements from your sources, the original statements did not refer to the Restoration Movement "figures" as "change agents." Notice the following from your locked post [with emphases mine]:
1801 - Barton W. Stone was a "change agent" at The Cane Ridge Revival, where crowds estimated from 10,000 to 30,000 to hear Baptist, Methodist and Presbyterian ministers preach repentance.

1809 - The Christian Association commissioned Thomas Campbell (another "change agent") to write a Declaration and Address,

1815 - After much discussion, the Brush Run Church, led by Thomas and son Alexander Campbell (another "change agent") joined the Redstone Baptist Association. For the next 15 years, the Campbells were reformers among the Baptists.

1824 - Alexander meets Stone for the first time at Stone's home. Two "change agents" coming together to start a "church" and "unity movement".
Haven't you said that you respect your heritage? Or, do you desire to distort history? I've listed the "change agents" who are destroying the church and intruding upon the affairs of peaceful congregations. They're aligning themselves with denominational churches -- and not with the men of the Restoration Movement. In fact, even though the "change agents" make reference [properly by name: unlike you happy.gif ] to the "Restoration Movement," they detest and despise it and make every attempt to distort, revise, rewrite its history. No ... no... no, "change agents" (Rubel Shelly, Max Lucado, Rick Atchley, Jay Guin, et al) are not in the same league with the Restoration figures.

Feel free to edit and resubmit your own post as another thread by removing from your quoted statements any reference to "change agent(s)" where it does not belong. And we go from there. You may make a separate statement or an acknowledgment of how your personally feel or think that the RM men were "change agents" to you. That is, if you still want to pursue this matter after the issue has been resolved.

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: A Different Perspective?

November 12 2010, 6:04 PM 

Brother Cruz,

Yes, I have read statements of restoration and am not denying, but my point is that they also said reformation just as much and really more. Furthermore, their unifying statements and actions showed they were not thinking restoration in the sense that some have later written and believed. This view about what they did came later. They had motto's such as "Christians only (no creed/sectarianism) but not the only Christians (Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. are still our brother)." Stone was worshipping alongside of Baptists and Methodists (he was Presbyterian) at the Cane Ridge Revival. Alexander Campbell fellowshipped and partnered with the Redstone Baptist Association, and so forth.

Thus, I stand by my statements that the restoration/reformation/change movement was one in their minds (not later perspectives from many C of C people, perhaps including some progressives who haven't read as much on the matter) for unity in Christ regardless of various differences. They were restoring New Testament Christianity in the sense of a spirit of unity. It was later when Christians within the "Church of Christ" began to say this restoration meant Baptists, etc. are not Christians and had this practice as their unity concept - become exactly like us. Today there are many wonderful Christians within the C of C heritage - praise God. However, there are also those who divide over virtually "ANY" difference (you name it). This was NOT the case with Stone and Campbell.

-Sonny

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.141.177.53

Re: A Different Perspective?

November 12 2010, 6:54 PM 

Sonny,

I also stand by how the two separate movements should remain named as such -- they're of different eras in "church history." We simply cannot rename the Restoration Movement as "Reformation Movement, Vol. II" or something else, even if it was named that way or given that point of reference later on.

I have not argued nor rejected your other points that in both Movements there was an overlap in some of the other activities where change was involved in the process of either restoration or reformation.

But you continue to equate the destructive, DIVISIVE, intrusive, denominational activities and influences of the last few decades' "change agents" with the unifying, non-denominational and New Testament-principled efforts of the Restoration men.

The formula that:


The Campbells, Stone, et al
=
Shelly, Lucado, Walling, Guin, et al


... does not compute.

 
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N.J. Gold
(Login NJGold)
172.129.124.101

Re: my SOURCE, THE SOURCE

November 11 2010, 9:17 AM 

... the source of everything that is good, righteous, and lovely. The nucleus or center around which the entire universe revolves; yea, around which everything revolves, the focus of the entire Bible, the Word of God, from the resurrection to the most obscure geneaology in the Chronicles, that source is the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Lets open our King James Bibles to Colossians 1 ...

Colossians 1

16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


Song of Solomon 2:1 (King James Version)

I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys.



 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.138

Lies, lies

November 12 2010, 11:19 PM 

1809 - The Christian Association commissioned Thomas Campbell (another "change agent") to write a Declaration and Address,

I told you that was a lie: Thomas Campbell was continuing the work of John Calvin who called for the "Restoration of the Church of Christ."

http://www.piney.com/Calvin-Reform-1.html

The Disciples / Christian church has its roots the Methodist, Church of England, Catholicism.


 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Talk to Ken....Tell Him to Behave

November 14 2010, 12:08 AM 

Donnie,
I believe you need to get Ken in line.
You have the Campbells and Stones on the good conservative side, right?

Ken says...."
1809 - The Christian Association commissioned Thomas Campbell (another "change agent") to write a Declaration and Address,
I told you that was a lie: Thomas Campbell was continuing the work of John Calvin who called for the "Restoration of the Church of Christ."

Come on Donnie, Ken is killing you guys. He puts down congregational singing, and NOW even the founding fathers of the American church of Christ movement?

GET KEN IN LINE!!!

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Talk to Ken....Tell Him to Behave

November 14 2010, 2:29 AM 

Here's the lie: "1809 - [that] Thomas Campbell was another 'change agent.'"

You, too, can learn a lot from his research.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Edit While You Can....It is Getting Out of Control

November 15 2010, 10:27 AM 

If it is a lie Donnie, then you are calling Ken a liar. He is the one who said it.

 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.141.177.53

Re: Edit While You Can....It is Getting Out of Control

November 15 2010, 11:11 AM 

Dave,

I need to refer you to this [locked] thread and you will find who said it:

"A Brief Historical Timeline Of The Genesis Of Change Agents In The Church Of Christ"

November 9 2010 at 9:37 PM
Sonny (no login) from IP address 99.186.93.107

"1809 - The Christian Association commissioned Thomas Campbell (another "change agent") to write a Declaration and Address...."


 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

???

November 15 2010, 11:34 AM 

Donnie,
Why wouldn't Ken make it a point to make sure that the readers knew that Sonny was the one who said this?
I don't see where Ken referred to this.....do you?

 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.141.177.53

Doing one's homework

November 15 2010, 12:24 PM 

Dave,

Maybe, Ken is trying to see if you're paying attention ... to details. happy.gif

There is a connection between this thread: "My Sources" and the locked thread: "A Brief Historical Timeline Of The Genesis Of Change Agents In The Church Of Christ."


 
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Dave!!!
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Still me...

November 15 2010, 1:14 PM 

Still backing ole Ken, even when he falls, and that is often, and even if it makes you look bad.....good for you Donnie.

 
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Donnie
(no login)
170.141.177.53

Aligning with Truth and History

November 15 2010, 4:13 PM 

Dave,

Did you notice the message title? That exactly describes Ken. He has more depth and greater knowledge and understanding of the truth backed by history, or vice versa, than that of all the change agents put together. You, too, can learn from him. If you want to know [more] about the Restoration Movement history, ask him. If you want to know [at all] about the history of musical idolatry, ask him.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Pan god......Good Grief!

November 15 2010, 4:42 PM 

Yes sireeeee.....Ken can tell you me and others all about Enoch, the 67th book in the OT too.
Oh, excuse me....I have misspoke. There is only 66 books, right Donnie.....Ken? Do me a favor Donnie. I can't seem to get Ken to tell me the location of Enoch in our Old or New Testaments.

He speaks more about Greek mythology and about a book that doesn't exist than he does of what we know to be Truthful.
That is a problem.
As far as his vast knowledge.....you are more than welcome to it Donnie.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.141.177.53

Good title (Pan god) and good points, Dave.

November 15 2010, 5:39 PM 

Dave,

This is good. The discussion is getting better. We're more to the point ... without calling each other names -- well, almost.

I'd rather learn proofs and evidences of biblical events and truths from the Book of Enoch than learn dogmas, creeds and acquired-denominational beliefs from change agents in the brotherhood.

Do me a favor, Dave. Search on "book of" from the entire Bible, and let us know how many you will find. Never mind: that will take time, so I'll do it for you. Voila!!! Here are some:

--- book of Jasher (Joshua 10:13)
--- book of the acts of Solomon (I Kings 11:41)
--- book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel
--- book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah
--- book of Nathan the prophet
--- book of Gad the seer
--- book of Shemaiah the prophet
--- book of Jehu the son of Hanani
--- book of records of the chronicles
--- book of the vision of Nahum

There are more -- all mentioned in the Bible. (BTW, the list has BCV references.)

So, are these different books actual books in the Bible?

I know ... I know. His knowledge of Greek mythology, the history of musical idolatry, is staggering and intimidating, too.

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Re: Good title (Pan god) and good points, Dave.

November 15 2010, 8:12 PM 

You sell God short time and time again Donnie.
These books mentioned by the Word....
--- book of Jasher (Joshua 10:13)
--- book of the acts of Solomon (I Kings 11:41)
--- book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel
--- book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah
--- book of Nathan the prophet
--- book of Gad the seer
--- book of Shemaiah the prophet
--- book of Jehu the son of Hanani
--- book of records of the chronicles
--- book of the vision of Nahum

You nor Ken believe that God knows what He is doing......if God would have wanted to have Enoch or Jasher to be in His Word as a WHOLE BOOK, you can believe those MENTION of books would have been a completed work.

Yep, Ken's knowledge is staggering.....and that and a dollar bill might get you a coke.
It is how you USE that knowledge is what matters.

 
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