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Whose Heart is Hard???

November 15 2010, 4:35 PM 

The whole story represented the parallel from our command and from the Scriptures of.... TO SING.... and the father's simple instructions in 'cutting the grass.' AM, please let me know if I you are not connecting here, ok? The story had NOTHING to do with listening to an iPod during worship, or misusing an iPod in any way for our Lord.
Since God tells us TO we have the freedom to sing a solo, with a praise team, with a choir, or having a piano to accompany our singing? These freedoms are taken away by man.....NOT GOD. God told us to sing.
NOW AM, we go to the father's instructions of 'mowing the grass.' The father didn't say how to cut the grass....he just said to cut it. Would an iPod be sinful if the boy used it while cutting the grass. The grass still gets cut, doesn't it??? However, the father did not SPECIFICALLY tell the son that he could use an did he? Does it matter that there were no instructions about the use of the iPod?
Not really.
If the iPod helps the son in doing a better job (since he obviously loves music), or getting the job done faster, then all is well.
The main point here, and this.....if the father would have NOT wanted the son to have used the iPod, he would have so instructed.
Are you catching on AM?

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(no login)

Re: Whose Heart is Hard???

November 15 2010, 6:49 PM 

"The whole story represented the parallel from our command and from the Scriptures of.... TO SING.... "


and there is not an instrument involved!

" The father didn't say how to cut the grass....he just said to cut it."

Yes, and that is where an example would come in. How were we shown to cut the grass?

How were we shown to worship?

So we are told to worship God and then given an example on how we are to worship. A perfect example that really needs no explanation, that was given by Jesus himself! All is good, except for those who do not like to follow examples of our Lord. Dave, please give me a scripture that says Jesus played anything while worshiping God. Betcha can't!

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

The Law of Silence

November 15 2010, 6:12 PM 

In dealing with the "worship" issue, creating an image of the Virgin Mary ("Mother of God" per the RCC creed) to be worshiped would be a better illustration than the iPod and cutting the grass.

Although we have a timid illustration of the iPod which involves only listening, we'll just try to deal with that, anyway, because the example still shows a key point concerning mechanical music in worship, the question: "Does the father's silence imply a prohibition?"

It all boils down to the issue [check the title above] of "the law of silence."

OK, just briefly (for me due to lack of time), here are the differences to consider:
  • The Restoration Movement: The Law of Silence means -- "We speak where the Bible speaks; we are silent where the Bible is silent""

    ---------- versus ----------

  • The Change Agents' Movement: The Law of Silence means -- "God authorizes whatever/whenever the Scripture does NOT say 'NOT TO.'""

Take it from there.

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(no login)

Law of Silence is in what Book and Verse?

November 15 2010, 8:05 PM 

There is no 'Law of Silence.'
There is no such law. That is only man trying to make his traditions to be THE ONLY true way to worship God.
It is NOT!
The True Worship to our Lord is from the heart and is not limited to a certain tradition.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Law of Silence is in what Book and Verse?

November 15 2010, 10:59 PM 

If there is no Law of Silence, because the New Testament doesn't explicitly mention it, then if we use Dave's fallacious reasoning, there must not be a "Bible" or "Holy Bible," since those terms also do not exist anywhere in what we call the "Bible." Dave will have to throw away his "Bible," since that is what is printed on the front cover! Surely Dave would not want to possess any book that's called by something not mentioned in the written Word of God! But just because a term, name, or phrase does not appear in Scripture text as such, does that mean it is not at all relevant? Observe:

The fact of the matter is that man devises certain names, terms, and phrases for spiritual things, and those designations do not detract from God's Word. "Bible" and "Holy Bible" are man's terms for the written Word of God, and there is nothing wrong with them.

Likewise, the designation "Christ's Requirements for Salvation" accurately describes the requirements for salvation that Christ has specified in the New Testament. No, that man-made designation does not appear in Scripture, yet it does not in any way detract from what Christ requires. There is a thread by that same title on this site.

Likewise, man has designated Matt. 5-7 as "The Sermon on the Mount," yet that term does not appear in Scripture text. Sure, Bible page headings and footnotes may say "The Sermon on the Mount," but Bible page headings and footnotes are man-made. BTW, would Dave want a "Bible" with man-made page headings and footnotes? Surely Dave doesn't think that those man-made page headings and footnotes were included in the original manuscripts! happy.gif

And then the Law of Silence is simply man's way of saying that we speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where the Bible is silent. We have no authority to take God's specific commands and tweak them to suit our personal preferences. Since we are told not to go above what is written in Scripture (1 Cor. 4:6), then "Law of Silence" is a way to describe that if God issues a command and specifies certain things about it and does not include (is silent about) other things in that command), then bringing in what God has not specified in that command is sinful.

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(no login)

Re: Law of Silence is in what Book and Verse?

November 15 2010, 11:28 PM 

"The True Worship to our Lord is from the heart and is ..."limited to the example that Jesus gave us.

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To Agree or Not to Agree

November 16 2010, 8:57 AM 

I agree with AM and couldn't get past William Crump's first statement of 'Holy Bible' not being in the Scriptures.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: To Agree or Not to Agree

November 16 2010, 10:59 AM 

It may actually shock Dave to know that the words "Bible" and "Holy Bible" are man-made terms. They do not appear in Scripture text in any of the standard translations. The only place they appear are on the front covers, introductory remarks by editorial staff of publishing houses, and perhaps in footnotes and explanatory notes that accompany the text, all of which are man-made additions to Scripture text. Dave will not find the following phraseology or any like it in Scripture text: "Open your Holy Bibles"; "The Bible says..."; "In the Holy Bible..."; "Read your Bible..." etc. That Dave couldn't get past my first statement of "Holy Bible" not being in the Scriptures is an obvious denial of the truth.

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Re: To Agree or Not to Agree

November 16 2010, 8:55 PM 

I do not know where we are going with the conversation, yet it does look like a snake that eats its tail.

On to deeper thoughts.

Yes. I agree that Dr. Crump's observations are interesting. Another thought, no where in the Bible is there a reference to the word of God, as the written Bible. In fact the word of God was with God from the beginning(as John 1:1 states)and he was not talking about the Bible. Obviously the Bible was not with God in the Beginning. So what is "The Word of God"?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

The Word of God is His WORDS

November 16 2010, 9:29 PM 

Psa. 33:4 For the word of THE LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
Psa. 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
Psa. 33:6 By the (1) word [Dabar=Logos) of the (2) LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the (3) breath (Spirit) of his mouth.
Psa. 33:7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
Psa. 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
Psa. 33:9 For HE spake, and it was done;
HE commanded, and it stood fast.

There is only ONE invisible, inaudible Deity.
When HE began to SPEAK His WORDS were His SON (say all classical trinitarians)
The Spirit of God is the BREATH of God: it is invisible, inaudible and like the wind carries power.
The SON articulates the BREATH of the SPEAKER so we can hear.

Whatever the SON articulates is SPIRIT (congealed)

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life.

When the Eye and Ear witnesses recorded their messages as Peter left us a memory in written form that BECOMES the Word of God.

Heb. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the WORD of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb. 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have SPOKEN unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Luke 5:1 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

That's why there is absolutely no human able or authorized to tamper with the Word of God to make it more POWERFUL to make people feel powerful.

The Command is to PREACH the word by READING the word and discussing it so that that assigned text (as in the synagogue) is brought to bear: the Word transfers SPIRIT as MIND of Christ.

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Re: The Word of God is His WORDS

November 17 2010, 5:22 PM 

"The Spirit of God is the BREATH of God: it is invisible, inaudible and like the wind carries power."

Mr. Sublett,

I like this statement, it rings to level of understanding I have of the Holy Spirit. What is seen in most church-goers is a repetitiveness of an act(going to church) without a knowledge, understanding or desire to know the Holy Spirit. Most Preachers today seem to lack a depth of spiritual knowledge, which is strange because preachers spend their educational years working to get that job, and end up speaking to people about popular issues in the culture. Therefore all that is committed to by the flock and the leaders is powerlessness for God.

It makes one wonder why church groups haven't figured out that they are actually being led by the wordly educated(the MDIV, Degrees in Bible, degrees in youth ministry) and are not being led by the spiritually enlightened. Everyone at that level of "Christian compensated service" follow along so they can keep their job, not following to be faithful to the understanding of Jesus. Edlerships(or better called the church board of directors) will only consider those canidates, for the most lofty positions, which have earned the best credentials from a University. That is most interesting when you consider that Jesus highlighted one of the most faithful as the woman that gave, two mytes(mites), all that see had. One should see that faithfullness and spirit filled is not found in a college degree, master's degree or Ph.D. Not to say that some with those degrees have not found a spiritual understanding.

Realizing that our churches are becoming less and less spirit driven, makes one wonder what is the purpose of church. If churches lost their preacher or staff or building, that church could survive. But if there was a loss of the contribution, the church would go away. This would explain what we are dealing with in the brotherhood today, "A purpose Driven life and a Money driven church". Far from the Spirit directed life that Jesus lived or the church he died to save.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

No ROLES: no DOLES. All for the DESTITUTE: none for the INSTITUTE.

November 17 2010, 6:26 PM 

Everyone at that level of "Christian compensated service" follow along so they can keep their job, not following to be faithful to the understanding of Jesus. Edlerships(or better called the church board of directors) will only consider those canidates, for the most lofty positions, which have earned the best credentials from a University.

That's the way prophecy plays out: sorry about that but it's all laid out. You should not expect any person with the highest level of "scholarship" to have ever spent much time in the Bible.

Luke 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect,
.....which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily.
.....Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh,
.....shall he find faith on the earth?

I tend to pull my punches on the theory that there may be some real educated and dedicated preachers out there. However, Scripture makes it perfectly clear that there are no ROLES justifying a DOLE.

Christ in Spirit define the future REST for His children after He had peeled the clergy off our backs.
A laded burden is the kind of gender-revealing praise singing, and a burden lader is someone waged to break our backs. They even sing 'Jesus paid it all.' In Matthew 13 Jesus said that the truth had been hidden from them from the foundation of the world in parables. So, not the best scholarship can read black text on brown paper.

In Isaiah 55 Christ defined the FREE water of the Word and told us not to use our bread money to buy it. That is because God's thoughts are not our thoughts. Honest preachers would "teach that which has been taught" and the way it is taught.

Isaiah 58 commands us not to seek our own pleasure or speak our own words. That's what Paul commanded in Romans 14-15.

The term "private interpretation" means further expounding: that would deny the power of the Word and would not be tolerated in the old synagogue.

The term "corrupt the word" means "selling learning at retail" or "adultery."

Paul knew that evangelists need to be supoorted "as they go." But church history denies that there are ROLES which demand a wage or that there was a "law of giving" which could be used like a weapon by those riding tandem on widows and honest working people.

I would expect to see it get worse and worse so that, like the first advent which had lots of explicit warning and did not understand the Messiah until He had been there and gone, I don't expect any literal trumpets or signs that the average "churcher" or their "pastor person" will have recognized until Jesus returns and is gone.

Like the elders in Israel, Paul warns us that the wolves will be elders who open the gates. Money does corrupt and attract the parasites.

I tend to believe that the sudden, massive, end-time plotting at highest levels in most Bible-based groups, to claim a "spirit" told them to IMPOSE professional singing teams intending to add instrments has promises.

Those who have abandoned the Word and boast about it even at the once-Christian college level, are promised STRONG DELUSIONS so they believe their own lie and are damned. Lying Wonders are specificially dramatic or musical performances which CLAIM that they came from God or intend to worship God.

2012 marks the last major event about 6500 years ago and the last ice age which fits the last crossing of the galactic center. I am keeping my fingers crossed and my head far away from any trumpet quartet.

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(no login)

Re: No ROLES: no DOLES. All for the DESTITUTE: none for the INSTITUTE.

November 17 2010, 9:14 PM 

You make some interesting points. My family, from Grandparents to the extended family, have vowed to only support what Jesus said to support, which is not churches or a book seller. There are orphans, which the churches select to care for, of course only after the contribution has covered the staff's salary and benefits packages. And then there is the obligatory speech by the minister about "what a giving church you are". Should make us all sick. I am embarrassed to see a high paid staff, live from the collection plate, they have no understanding or shame. Does anyone really want to get paid a salary for teaching Jesus? I think that is a bigger shame and sham than what we see going on as reported in the American news media. The life blood of this beast is money, so we should support the lamb and give directly to the orphans and widows. Cut the life off to this beast.

The church PR people will alter church services anyway they can to keep the "Jesus market" alive. I wonder how many Elder/Board meetings discussed church marketing? The churches added soft music, then louder music, then rock music, then Jesus pop... What do you think will be added next. Maybe a choice of communion drink and bread. Mr. Sublet, how many choices of worship did Jesus offer? And assuming we are a church trying to following Jesus, why do the leaders seem so blind? Or are we a church trying to follow the likes of Rick Atchley and others?

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Jay Guin Defends K.C.Moser whom I believe blasphemes

August 8 2011, 3:00 PM 


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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Galatians 5: Music and Witchcraft and Burning

March 22 2011, 11:09 PM 

I find it supernatural that people addicted to deliberately sowing discord using the instrument thingy, fit the pattern of the Word of God. When the Israelites rejected the Word of God and demanded a human mediator they fell into musical idolatry: as a result they were blind and could never read BLACK text on BROWN paper until they converted to Christ at baptism. It is part of the pattern, therefore, that they also deny and actively promote the idea that Jesus and all recorded history (before them) were liars.

Paul can be best understood as a commentary on the Old Testament. In Romans 1 he defines the musical fall from grace at Mount Sinai and in ALL of his inclusive and exclusive pattern for the church first gives the leaders the task of silencing all of the hypocritic arts and crafts. Of course, they deny that.

Notice that the galli (dogs) of Cybel or the mother goddess (at a worship service near you) are the patternism for the "a cappella" fellas imported by the Pope. Modern ACappella derive from the Capella or Caper or goat performers offered as a NOT commanded burnt offering in Jay's patternism. The witchcraft (later) are the sorcerers in Revelation 18 as "fruits" is lifted totally by the Musical Worship Teams with or without instruments. Note that a musical instrument is a machine for doing hard work and this is THE meaning of legalism.

Notice that John Chrysostom interpreted this exactly as Paul's WORDS teach but not for the discorders.

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[linked image]
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Jay Guin blinks

December 16 2011, 1:55 PM

I posted that the Synagogue was the pattern for the Church of Christ in the wilderness.
It was INCLUSIVE of rest, reading and Rehearsing.
Jay follows Al Maxey who claims the synagogue was NOT commanded, men added the synagogue, therefore, WE can add instruments and sow discord and grace will cover up what he confesses is NOT commanded.

In fact Jesus added the Lord's Supper to the synagogue which was ONLY for reading and discussing the Word of Christ in the prophets and apostles. The Campbells called that A School of Christ (only)

I posted proof that all scholars including Stephen connected the ekklesia to the qahal or synagogue.
If these musical adders are wrong then they have passed beyond the zone of redemption.

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(no login)

Post Post Post Post Post

December 20 2011, 12:54 PM 

It is really ok never have followed the subject nor posting date. You just keep posting.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Jay Guin: a "Change Agent" and Proud of Being One

January 7 2012, 3:37 PM 

This is public knowledge, so ConcernedMembers did not originate this info. It is not valid to think that change agents are only "other members of the church" or "from denominational groups" that infiltrate congregations of the church of Christ and subvert, intrude upon their affairs, conquer, divide and acquire.

Wait, there are elders and leaders of the church of Christ who are "change agents" among us.

An article titled "Jay Guin, Change Agent" points out the following:

Jay Guin is an elder at University Church of Christ in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. He serves as an elder and is busy teaching and shepherding the flock. Jay is also an attorney so the bills get paid at home. He has been a speaker at some of the most popular and well-known Church of Christ lectureships and is an author. His book The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace: Gods antidotes for division within the Churches of Christ and at least four others are favorites of many readers.

Jay Guin has also responded to The Christian Chronicle's article on the directory of churches of Christ, including those "historically a cappella churches with instrumental services." [I'll post this one when time permits ... for your evaluation of the mind of a change agent.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Jay Guin: a "Change Agent" and Proud of Being One

January 8 2012, 8:43 PM 

HELP Needed:

I have visited Jay's congregation's website. Here are some of my observations:

a) Jay Guin is one of the elders.
b) In "What We Believe," "Salvation" and "Baptism" are separate topics.
c) The congregation has organized Praise Teams--I'm sure they REHEARSE "worship."
d) "Wineskins" is one of "Other Helpful Resources."
e) "Grace Centered Magazine" is one of "Other Helpful Resources."
d) Here's the help I need: Does the church use IM in its assemblies?

Jay is one elder who responded to the issue of the inclusion of a handful of instrumental music churches of Christ in the directory of a cappella churches of Christ. He made the following comments:

Why is it the instrumental music is a fellowship issue and, say, steeples on the building are not? Where I grew up, steeples were quite controversial.
. . .
And those who wish to divide over the instrument have never articulated a sensible, Bible-based standard for distinguishing instrumental music from all the other issues over which we dont divide.

I would not have Jay as my lawyer as he pays no attention to details concerning MAJOR doctrinal controversies. His argument about "steeples on the building" reminds me so much of Dave Fields' third-grade level argument about equating the PA system with musical devices. Dave is also an elder at another university church (Clemson, SC).

If it is true that UCC (AL) does not indulge in the mechanical operation of musical devices in any of its assemblies, what is Jay Guin, an elder, waiting for? Of course, he knows that instrumental music in the church of Christ is CONTROVERSIAL, UNNECESSARY and DIVISIVE in the church.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Jay is an ANTI because he refuses to learn

January 8 2012, 9:41 PM 

I knew Perry Mason. He was a friend of mine. Believe me, Jay Guin is no Perry Mason.

Jesus marks the Sons of the Devil--because they speak on their own. These ANTI Christian troublers in Zion are using their human imagination which God says is "only evil continueally." They take quotes out of context and have not the slightest interesting in understanding the message or story line. They are standing in the bar of justice and being their own lswyer thinking that they can trump God who speaks to the Church of Christ in the Prophets and apostles. They think that they are being acquitted just because they withhold evidence.

Why is it the instrumental music is a fellowship issue and, say, steeples on the building are not? Where I grew up, steeples were quite controversial.
. . .
And those who wish to divide over the instrument have never articulated a sensible, Bible-based standard for distinguishing instrumental music from all the other issues over which we dont divide.

That of course is a lie: He and the small band IMPOSE instruments into YOUR property and claim that YOU are DIVISIVE for being offended and robbed. I don't know of any more Satanic lie used by all of the discorders.

Jay does not know, cannot know that Church is A School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles: all of the prophets repudiate musical instruments as the mark of Lucifer the singing and harp playing prostitute. All recorded history understands that religious musical performers WERE defacto effeminate or castrated males (Galatians 5) and the "fruits" who served the Mother Goddesses. People understand the PERSONA of instrumental performers CLAIMING to lead you into the presence of God. As long as they do not know that most edifice complex is a Phallic Symbol that is normally not divisive and does NOT hinder the role of Church as A School (only) of Christ (only). If he cannot grasp the meaning of a Discipl of Christ He cannot be one in any sense.

The other defacto lie in their web page.

Our Biblical Mandate
Ephesians 4:11-13 says, And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

He prefers to IGNORE that Paul says that these elders are given to SIT DOWN AND SILENCE all of the performers whom Jesus called hypocrites: sermonizers, singers and instrument players.'

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro,
and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

-Panourg-êma A. knavish trick, villainy, S.El.1387 (lyr.), LXX Si.1.6 (v.l.); sophistry, Gal.5.251; cf. panourgeuma.

-Sophia A. cleverness or skill in handicraft and art, as in carpentry, tektonos, hos rha te pass eu eid s. Il.15.412; of the Telchines, Pi.O.7.53; h entekhnos s., of Hephaestus and Athena, Pl.Prt.32 1d; of Daedalus and Palamedes, X.Mem.4.2.33, cf. 1.4.2; in music and singing, tekhn kai s. h.Merc.483, cf. 511; in poetry, Sol.13.52, Pi.O.1.117

Simon the father of Judas was Telchine. The Judas Bag is always attached to a New Wineskin flute case.

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NO ONE who can say that God does not utterly condemn any performers in HIS Bible class are wantonly ignorant of the Word of God and are like simple Simons who get a job in brain surgery because they saw a surgery on TV.

I don't believe Jesus will ALLOW them to understand because they have mocked so much that they believe their own strong delusions: the proof is that he supports lying wonders or "religious services using all of the performing arts and crafts."

I would not even suggest repentance for those who have sought fame and fortune blaming the offended for being forced out of their own property. It IS possible that they believe that the widow who fed their face is divisive for running her face into his fist.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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