Place your banner ad here.          See all banner ads

|| || About || Links Library || Help Warn Others ||
|| Madison Church of Christ || Richland Hills Church of Christ || Hillcrest Church of Christ || More Churches || Sunday School in Exile ||

Where is my NewThisWeek Email subscription?Click Here

Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Jay is an ANTI because he refuses to learn

January 10 2012, 1:04 AM 

[1] Why is it the instrumental music is a fellowship issue and, say, steeples on the building are not? Where I grew up, steeples were quite controversial.
. . .
[2] And those who wish to divide over the instrument have never articulated a sensible, Bible-based standard for distinguishing instrumental music from all the other issues over which we dont divide.


[1] Jay fails to comprehend that we are speaking of "fellowship" here uniquely in reference to the brotherhood of churches of Christ [non-instrumental] -- NOT a conglomerate of Protestant religious bodies. Jay, it is about churches of Christ -- NOT the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church. How OFTEN do we have to inculcate upon your cranium that the church of Christ does not indulge in mechanical, instrumental music in its assemblies?

Jay's piano/trumpet vs. steeple analogy is pathetic, ludicrous and illogical. On one hand, the musician blows the trumpet or plays the piano -- a mechanical operation that man may decide to perform in the assembly. On the other hand, the steeple is part of a structure -- no one would dare to play with it or mechanically operate it [well, a criminal might vandalize it].

Like it or not, instrumental music is a MAJOR issue in the church of Christ. Therefore, instrumental music is a MAJOR FELLOWSHIP issue in the church of Christ.

[2] If there are "those who wish to divide over the instrument," Jay Guin, it is folks like you, the progressives and liberals in the church. Leave the church of Christ alone and don't push your inanimate-and-lifeless-musical-instruments agenda into the fellowship of churches of Christ, and you will soon find out that no member of the church wishes to divide.

In distinguishing one issue that divides from another issue that doesn't divide, no one can articulate a sensible, Bible-based standard for a NON-Bible-based or doctrine or teaching such as playing musical instruments and dancing for the Lord in the assembly. No directive FROM GOD to perform and dance for Him exists -- NONE from the Old Testament and NONE from the New Testament. NONE ... NONE ... NONE. FYI, directives from man-to-man do not count. Only God's.

VALID CONCLUSION: Instrumental music in the assembly of saints is CONTROVERSIAL, UNNECESSARY and DIVISIVE in the church of Christ. "Touch not, taste no, handle not intoxicating drinks." Same is true with inanimate, lifeless musical devices and accessories ... in the gathering of saints.

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Re: Jay is an ANTI because he refuses to learn

January 10 2012, 9:54 AM 

One of Jay's comments: "[2] And those who wish to divide over the instrument have never articulated a sensible, Bible-based standard for distinguishing instrumental music from all the other issues over which we dont divide."

Jay apparently refuses to accept the fact that the New Testament addresses music and specifies vocal music; hence, vocal music is the biblical standard but other forms of music are NOT. On the other hand, the New Testament does not address church steeples (or PA systems); hence, they should not enter into a discussion about standards, because they are not even biblical issues. Vocal music is a biblical issue; church steeples (and PA systems) are not.

It's that simple. Only the rebellious will refuse to see that.

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

No Diviersity with Ken and Donnie

January 10 2012, 11:17 AM 

Since you and Ken are the only ones posting these days, see if Ken can answer your six questions a-b-c-d-e-d.

No Donnie, it wasn't my mistake, but yours done in haste when you posted (d) twice.

That way at least you two are unified for a cause....still trying to understand WHAT cause it is, but a cause nonetheless.

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Re: No Diviersity [sic] with Ken and Donnie

January 10 2012, 8:23 PM 

Dave accused Donnie of typing "a-b-c-d-e-d" [sic] "in haste," yet Dave was in such haste to smear Donnie that he flubbed his message title. Dave typed "Diviersity" instead of "Diversity."

It looks like Dave will dine on some crow for awhile.

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Continual Lack of Substance and Lack of Relevance

January 10 2012, 9:23 PM 

...and this is the reason for a diminishing viewership and a lack of significant influence among Churches of Christ at concerned members. This ball of wax is all entertaining theater to Brother Crump. Personally, observing "the trio" brothers Cruz, Sublett and Crump amplify their theological minutia drivel rather than the worthy cause of Jesus is pitiful.


 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Crump is not online!

January 10 2012, 9:37 PM 

Hab. 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood,
....Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach!
....Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver,
....and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.
Hab. 2:20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

David wanted to AWAKEN his lyre so hecould a awaken the dawn: Dawn if the mother of Lucifer: they HAD been abandoned to worship the starry host and David's praise word meaning to make yourself vile with light or sound" is the root for the Lucifer Word.

During the Intertestament periode these arousal songs were silenced because they were identical to all pagan rituals who had to make lots of instrumental noise to get the attention of their gods: My God has really good ears, sorry about yours.

Arnobius one of those the musicators DENY said anything against instruments.

25. For what grandeur-if you look at the truth without any prejudice -is there in these images of which they speak, that the men of old should have had reason to hope and think that, by beholding them, the vices of men could be SUBDUED, and their morals and wicked ways brought under restraint?

The reaping-hook, for example, which was assigned to Saturn, was it to inspire mortals with fear, that they should be willing to live peacefully, and to abandon their malicious inclinations? Janus, with double face, or that spiked key by which he has been distinguished; Jupiter, cloaked and bearded, and holding in his right hand a piece of wood shaped like a thunderbolt; the cestus of Juno, or the maiden lurking under a soldier's helmet;

the mother of the gods, with her timbrel; the Muses, with their pipes and psalteries; Mercury, the winged slayer of Argus; Aesculapius, with his staff; Ceres, with huge breasts, or the drinking cup swinging in Liber's right hand; Mulciber, with his workman s dress; or Fortune, with her horn full of apples, figs, or autumnal fruits; Diana, with half-covered thighs, or Venus naked, exciting to lustful desire; Anubis, with his dog's face; or Priapus, of less importance than his own genitals: were these expected to make men afraid?

26. O dreadful forms of terror and frightful bugbears on account of which the human race was to be benumbed for ever,

to attempt nothing in its utter amazement, and to restrain itself from every wicked and shameful act-little sickles, keys, caps, pieces of wood, winged sandals, staves,

little timbrels, pipes, psalteries, breasts protruding and of great size, little drinking cups, pincers, and horns filled with fruit, the naked bodies of women, and huge veretra openly exposed!

Would it not have been better to dance and to sing, than calling it gravity and pretending to be serious, to relate what is so insipid and so silly, that images were formed by the ancients to check wrongdoing, and to arouse the fears of the wicked and impious?

No reader can escape the fact that instruments were always used to INDUCE FEAR so that people will march into battle or shiver with ecstasy at those who CLAIM that they are Messiah by claiming to lead you into the presence of God: this is an affect image which the ignorant and superstitious really believe. That "feeling" is not worship it is quaking fear to make it impossible for you, little man, to question "God's anointeds." Elders who are WOLVES love to engage in the hunting rituals which are erotic.

I hate to upset you but this is a TEACHING FORUM and it can be found all over the internet. People then read the posts and hear some real Bible. I am the only one on because I don't need the snip-snap-and-bit.

 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Jay and Baptism

January 10 2012, 10:00 PM 

Jay just posted a good paper on baptism.

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Re: Continual Lack of Substance and Lack of Relevance

January 10 2012, 10:18 PM 

Sonny wails about the so-called "minutia drivel" going on here. We need to remind Sonny that he has contributed quite well to that "drivel" by asking asinine questions, such as whether it's scriptural to sing with one's eyes closed. I'm not surprised that Sonny conveniently failed to mention Dave's jumping on Donnie for duplicating one letter in a sequence. That's just as much "drivel" as Sonny's question about singing with closed eyes. Now THAT is "entertaining theater!" LOVL.

 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Continual Lack of Substance and Lack of Relevance

January 10 2012, 11:57 PM 

"Continual Lack of Substance and Lack of Relevance" exactly describes the liberals' and the progressives' response against the truth and their failure to understand the truth. To them, man's opinions, suppositions, , guesses and untruths are substantive and relevant, instead.

Wrong, "trio" Sonny, Ray and Dave. It's your PA-systems, closed-eyes, etc., doctrinal arguments that are laughable.

Ken Sublett is correct -- this is a TEACHING FORUM. Do not for a moment underestimate the viewership -- you do not have the stats.

Truth deviants and church antagonists really should leave the church of Christ alone. Start your own church from scratch, and cease from disturbing peaceful congregations. If starting a church is unaffordable, better yet, JOIN the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church and the Community Church -- they will welcome you with open arms.

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

we dont [sic] divide

January 10 2012, 10:41 PM 

One of Jay's comments: "[2] And those who wish to divide over the instrument have never articulated a sensible, Bible-based standard for distinguishing instrumental music from all the other issues over which we dont [sic] divide."


"B", I think we all make mistakes. Let's not go there.

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Re: we dont [sic] divide

January 11 2012, 9:48 AM 

If Racnor will examine Donnie's earlier post wherein he quoted Jay, Racnor will note that the word "don't" appeared there as "dont" without the apostrophe. Whether that is Donnie's typo or Jay's typo is of no concern to me. My post simply reproduced that quote verbatim. And no, let's not continue to dwell on "minutia drivel," to use Sonny's term. We've already seen enough drivel in Sonny's nonsensical questions, plus Dave's typo in the title to a message wherein Dave ironically howls over Donnie's duplicating a letter in a sequence. And then Racnor contributes his howling drivel over Donnie's or Jay's typo in a quote. End the howling drivel!

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Cause is obvious

January 11 2012, 2:23 PM 

Ken and Donnie have an obvious Cause, that being the cause of Christ. Dave your cause is something secular.

Does the church in which you serve as an Elder know the direction you will work to take them? Could you keep us posted on how many people leave in the name of unity?

 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Cause is obvious

January 12 2012, 2:40 AM 

Thanks, AM.

Dave's cause is secular, indeed. It is also culture- and emotion-driven. In the secular world [well, "pagan world" may be more appropriate], musical instruments and dancing are partners and often inseparable. Even the Bible states that fact. History proves it as well.

Dave is disturbed that churches of Christ follow the apostolic/New Testament tradition that the saints of the Lord hymn together to let the word of Christ indwell and to teach and admonish one another. He finds it very difficult to understand that simple truth. I don't know why, do you?

If operating mechanical music [plus dancing -- which may be optional sad.gif ] in the assembly is truth found in God's Word, then, there should be NO FEAR on any elder's part to speak to and convince the congregation to go that route, correct?

I think that Dave may be keeping "that truth" to himself for fear that spreading "that truth" may cause division.

But we know. Instrumental music is CONTROVERSIAL, UNNECESSARY, and DIVISIVE. In the church of Christ, that is. And Dave is a member of that church.

 Respond to this message   
Fred Whaley
(no login)

Will the circle be unbroken?

January 12 2012, 8:35 AM 

Instrumental music is divisive because we let it be controversial. Drinking coffee in a class and singing traditional versus contemporary songs and going to Winterfest and celebrating anniversaries and birthdays and 1500 other matters that or opinion. The Lordship of Jesus and Baptism are not opinion but doctrine. I know I know that a few of you put music under doctrine and so the circular argument will not be broken. sad.gif

Fred Whaley

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

Re: Will the circle be unbroken?

January 12 2012, 11:11 PM 

Yes, Fred, music is a doctrinal issue, because Jesus through Paul addressed it in the New Testament. Anything that Jesus addressed is a doctrinal issue. That shouldn't be too hard to understand. Jesus specified vocal music (singing), and we cannot go beyond that. Had Jesus said, "Singing and making melody with all kinds of music," then we would have been free to implement instrumental music. The liberals, however, deny that music is a doctrinal issue, because they are too bent on implementing whatever music pleases them. And yes, the fruity loop will roll ad infinitum as long as there are rebellious liberals who will not follow the New Testament.

 Respond to this message   
(no login)

I Still Wonder....

January 11 2012, 8:45 AM 

I wonder two things...
1) Why William Crump is hiding behind "B"?
1) Why William Crump is back when he said that he was leaving (we knew that he couldn't stay away)?

Hey, its trendy....the double numbering system.....I LIKE IT!!!

 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Jay Guin Separates Salvation from Baptism

January 12 2012, 3:58 AM 


I'm very disappointed in your rebuttal. I was looking for substance: didn't find it. I see that your posts are trendy as well -- no substance.

OK: the musical notation -- a b c d e d. What would be the best musical instrument to play -- a b c d e d?

Let's review the list, and this should give us the opportunity to re-emphasize the important points mentioned in Jay's church's website:

a) Jay Guin is one of the elders.
b) In "What We Believe," "Salvation" and "Baptism" are separate topics.
c) The congregation has organized Praise Teams--I'm sure they REHEARSE "worship."
d) "Wineskins" is one of "Other Helpful Resources."
e) "Grace Centered Magazine" is one of "Other Helpful Resources."
d) Here's the help I need: Does the church use IM in its assemblies?

There was the original ordered points: a,b,c,d. But I just had to insert the liberals' and the change agents' favorite magazines before "d":

d) "Wineskins" ....
e) "Grace Centered Magazine" ....

Press SUBMIT ... and OOPS!

Sorry to disappoint you, "keen" observerss! But I saw and knew about the musical notes before you did. I left it that way. happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif for your enjoyment. And see what happened? All that really alarmed Dave Fields and caused him to deviate from a civil doctrinal discussion.


"... other issues over which we dont [sic] divide."

That is a copy-and-paste and/or keyboard and/or Notepad-vs-Word issue that affects the display or non-display of certain punctuation marks: (a) open and close single quotation mark; (b) open and close double quotation marks; (c) there may be others.


Dave, leave "B" alone. He is responding to doctrinal issues while you're not.


NOTE: Up to this point, of those of us with editing/approving rights, I'm the one who has approved posts unworthy of publishing. But here we go again. Posts of that nature beyond this point will be edited or rejected. So, save your time.

FYI: There were more viewers on 1/11/12 from those with non-U.S. than with U.S. IP addresses including: Ukraine, Russian Federation, France, U.K., Sweden, Netherlands, Philippines, Lithuania, etc.

 Respond to this message   
(no login)


January 12 2012, 1:02 PM 

Donnie, Because this site has visitors from all over the world doesn't really prove relevancy. It just means users are surfing the web. I don't mean to be degrading as I am sure it is still relevant to the three or four permanent posters. I still visit just to see if anyone with opposing views has ever changed their mind. So far the answer would be a resounding NO. I guess that just proves the old adage that everyone has their right to be wrong.

 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

That's what we say also.

January 12 2012, 2:14 PM 

All recorded Bible is that the use of INSTRUMENTS is the mark of those who HAVE FALLEN and cannot get up.

The Israelites rose up in musical idolatry and God sentenced them to return to Babylon.
Even Moses's intercession caused God to give them the law of Moses and the Levites commanded to execute you if you came near their Soothsaying with instruments, the SENTENCE was not redeemable and in time God would carry out the national death sentence. Moses said that they would be BLIND and DEAF until "another prophet like me comes" which was Jesus who REPUDIATED all of the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites named as preachers, singers and instrument players in Ezekiel 33."

The Direct Command from the wilderness onward was
To PREACH the Word of God (only)
By READING and discussing the Word.
Those who GO BEYOND HE SACRED PAGES are indicted with or without machines to prop up their silly self-speak which Jesus says marks them as sons of the Devil.

In Revelation 17 the REMOVAL of the speakers, singers and instrument players happens at the same time as the removal of the LAMPS--the seven spirit of Divine knowledge.

Not Repenting is the doom of the WORLD for whom Jesus refuses to even pray and the wise Sophists from whom GOD HIDES HIMSELF. The Sophists or rhetoricians, singers and instrument players. The musical idolatry is PROOF and the MARK that God is HIDING from these people. That is why we are not to even pray for these neo-Babylonians both left and right.

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Psalms 143:7 Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit.

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Zechariah 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Many (most) are called (evangelized) but FEW (almost none) are Chosen: The instrumental churches have already LOST their ability to CALL and in the parable of the LOCUSTS (Muses, dirty adulteresses) have SEPARATED them and holding them in PUNISHMENT (Yes, music punishes but the NOT-REDEEMABLE think it is fun).

 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Ukrainians and Russians Are Hungry for the Truth -- Let's Not Underestimate

January 12 2012, 9:11 PM 

Jimmy Joe,

Thanks for still visiting just to see....

I purposely did not post the stats, even though I continually watch the trend when I review the daily or weekly or monthly number of page views. At least, there is a "sitemeter" below. And the counter represents the number of visitors -- not the number of page views. Not many fora reveal counts nor have that many visitors.

I'm just wondering where you got your stats and the proof of relevancy. Nothing to worry about, JimmyJoe. I know that the church of Christ abides by the doctrine of Christ, and the doctrine of Christ is always relevant regardless of age -- 1st century, 19th century, 21st century. Even in this contemporary age, the truth does not change, and it is still the 1st century New Testament truth regardless of what the contemporary change agents say.

This is a serious question (since you might know): How close is the Madison congregation to: (1) assembling also on Saturday evenings and observing the Lord's Supper and playing musical devices or (2) adding a third assembly with "instrumental music" on Sundays? Or, has it abandoned the plan, if any?

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Jan 12, 2012 9:18 PM

 Respond to this message   
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

Place your banner ad here.           See all banner ads ...About ...Links Library ...Sunday School in Exile ...Help Warn Others

FastCounter by bCentral

CM Visit Counter as of 6/25/2015

Site Visits Since 6/30/2015
page counter