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Jay Guin: List of False Teachings at Wineskins

November 11 2010 at 8:54 AM
Ken  (no login)
from IP address 130.127.43.117

Jay Guin: List of Reviews

http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Reviews.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.The.Promise.of.the.Holy.Spirit.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.What.is.Acceptable.Baptism.New.Wineskins.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Instrumental.Music.Old.Testament.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.New.Wineskins.Promoting.Instruments.Conclusions.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Church.of.the.Frst.Born.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.1.Corinthians.10.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.The.Fork.in.The.Road.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Dancing.in.Worship.html
http://www.piney.com/New.Wineskins.Instrumental.Galatians.Music.Jay.Guin.html

http://www.piney.com/Danny.Corbitt.Instruments.html
http://www.piney.com/Danny.Corbit.Justin.Martyr.Instrumental.Music.html




Jesus Christ the LOGOS is the Regulative Principle. People who are ANTI-Regulative are ANTI-Logos or ANTI-Christ.

http://www.piney.com/Regulative.Principle.and.Churches.of.Christ.html

People who debunk the Regulative Principle are attached to a Worship Service and not A School of Christ.

Jay Guin also teaches that the baptism of the holy spirit is still in effect:

Jay Guin The Promise of the Holy Spirit

http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.The.Promise.of.the.Holy.Spirit.html



http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Reviews.html

I posted that the Synagogue was the pattern for the Church of Christ in the wilderness.
It was INCLUSIVE of rest, reading and Rehearsing.
Jay follows Al Maxey who claims the synagogue was NOT commanded, men added the synagogue, therefore, WE can add instruments and sow discord and grace will cover up what he confesses is NOT commanded.

In fact Jesus added the Lord's Supper to the synagogue which was ONLY for reading and discussing the Word of Christ in the prophets and apostles. The Campbells called that A School of Christ (only)

I posted proof that all scholars including Stephen connected the ekklesia to the qahal or synagogue.
If these musical adders are wrong then they have passed beyond the zone of redemption.



Jay Guin defends K.C.Moser who taught that to OBEY the gospel meant that you BELIEVED the gospel. He says you cannot have faith in commands. I believe that Moser and disciples blaspheme the Spirit of Christ.

http://www.piney.com/K.C.Moser.Gospel.Obeyed.html

John would defined them as Antichrists for defining the Spirit OF Christ as another "people" about their size.

http://www.piney.com/K.C.Moser.Indwelling.Spirit.html




On God's Salvation, Galatians, and the Instrument

New Wineskins
by Jay Guin
September - October, 2010

Accompanied or A Capella?The instrumental debate in the Restoration Movement goes back to Civil War times, meaning that weve had 150 years to refine and sharpen our arguments. Both sides have gotten pretty good at making them and at ignoring what the other side says.

Its often been said, by both sides, that the dispute is ultimately all about hermeneutics, and indeed , it is. But the fork in the road is not where we normally say. Its not really about what the early Christian bishops wrote, nor about the meaning of psall, nor about how to read the silences of the scriptures. Not really. Of course, those arguments matter and need to be addressed, but they arent the core of the disagreement.

Its really about who God is and his eternal plan for his people. Did God send Jesus to save us to worship a cappella? Or did he have entirely different purposes in mind? Thats the question.

And its the most important question in the entire debate. You see, once we decide that God is the sort of God who might damn over a piano, we begin to worry about whether he might also damn over how we use the church treasury, whether women wear hats to church, or whether elders are re-affirmed. Once you envision a God who damns over such things, theres really no end to the rules that your God might damn you over.

For any student of Restoration Movement history, the fruit of our teaching is seen in our countless divisions. Of course, we arent alone. The Baptists and many other denominations are severely divided as well. But that hardly excuses our behavior. Rather, it just tells us that we arent alone in our failure to understand who God really is.

(Imagine that a father tells his son to cut the grass. The son agonizes over whether the instructions should be interpreted to permit him to listen to his iPod while he works or does the fathers silence imply a prohibition? He fights with his sisters over the correct interpretation and even divides the family, because he loves the father too much to tolerate the presence of those who disagree. He soon begins to wonder whether grass includes weeds. He agonizes so much he never cuts the grass but he presents his father with an excellent grammatical analysis of the command.)

(Luke 6:43-44 ESV)

43 "For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, 44 for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush.


.....more to come.......


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 99.197.222.189 on Oct 8, 2014 5:12 PM


 
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AuthorReply
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

On God's Salvation, Galatians, and the Instrument (by Jay Guin)

November 11 2010, 3:30 PM 

Dave,

First, do you ever click "Preview" or "Edit" before you click "Respond" to submit your post? As you know, previewing or editing is really helpful as it ensures a more accurate reporting and better readability (such as a blank line between paragraphs). If in previewing, certain punctuation marks "disappear," use Notepad to locate and replace the marks (single quotation mark or apostrophe, double quotation mark, dash, etc.). Many of these marks are missing in the article above.

Based on the title, Jay Guin so far has not dealt with God's salvation and Galatians [I understand that this article is to be continued]. Instrumental music must be his specialty: he made that assertion in the first paragraph and it appears to be his main thrust in his article.

We do not prohibit the other side from posting its arguments and opinions, but you said nothing of Jay Guin's background. So, I will do that in order not to misled the reader.

In my response to Sonny's article titled "A Brief Historical Timeline Of The Genesis Of Change Agents In The Church Of Christ" [which is currently in a "locked" status], I listed a few of the "change agents" operating in the brotherhood as follows (and I will highlight Jay Guin's name -- the author of the article you've submitted for discussion):
-- Rubel Shelly
-- Max Lucado
-- Leroy Garret
-- John Mark Hicks
-- Joe Beam
-- Rick Atchley
-- Al Maxey
-- John York
-- Mike Cope
-- Ronnie Norman
-- Jay Guin -- author of above article
-- et al
The list of "change agents" is not complete by all means. The "et al" simply indicates there are more "change agents" not on the list.

Now that we have identified with which side Jay Guin aligns himself, another of Dave's favorite change agents (besides Al Maxey). let the discussion begin as many of Jay's statements are debatable.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.144

Jay Guin on Galatians

November 12 2010, 12:05 AM 

http://www.piney.com/New.Wineskins.Instrumental.Galatians.Music.Jay.Guin.html

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Phil 3:3

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. Phil 3:2

G2699 katatom kat-at-om-ay' From a compound of G2596 and temn (to cut); a cutting down (off), that is, mutilation (ironically):concision. Compare G609 .

Noting that in the Greek world musicians even after people got wise and shut down the sacrificial altars were still called PARASITES because they didn't want to work for a living.

Iamblichus.

5. Because the begging priest with open mouth attempts in many ways to raise our expectations. 13

13. The agurtes or begging priest generally belonged to the worship of Rhea or Cybele, the Mother [Zoe]. He is frequently depicted in a most unfavorable light. Apuleius speaks of a company of these emasculate priests in the eighth book of the Metamorphoses. They are also described in the Republic of Plato: "Agurtæ and Mantics frequent the houses of the rich and persuade them that they possess a power granted by the gods to expiate,

by sacrifices and chants any unjust act that has been committed and that they induce the gods by blandishments and magic rites to help them.

They collected money in this way, and they also followed the selling of nostrums and telling of fortunes."

Gal 5:12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

51 - And on these days Galloi are made. For while the rest are playing flutes and performing their rites, frenzy soon enters into many

Lucretius (98 - c. 55 BC): The Worship of Cybele

Wherefore great Mother of gods, and Mother of beasts,
And parent of man hath she alone been named.
Her hymned the old and learned bards of Greece....

Do name Idaean , giving her

Escort of Phrygian bands, since first, they say,

From out those regions 'twas that grain began
Through all the world. To her do they assign
The Galli, the emasculate, since thus
They wish to show that men who violate
The majesty of the Mother and have proved
Ingrate to parents are to be adjudged
Unfit to give unto the shores of light

A living progeny. The Galli come:

And hollow cymbals, tight-skinned tambourines
Resound around to bangings of their hands;
The fierce horns threaten with a raucous bray;
The tubed pipe excites their maddened minds

In Phrygian measures; they bear before them knives,
Wild emblems of their frenzy, which have power
The rabble's ingrate heads and impious hearts
To panic with terror of the goddess' might.

All honour to that king of the Scythians, whoever Anacharsis was,
..........who shot with an arrow one of his subjects who imitated among the Scythians
the mystery of the Mother of the gods, as practised by the inhabitants of Cyzicus,

beating a drum and sounding a cymbal
strung from his neck like a priest of Cybele,
..........condemning him as having become effeminate among the Greeks,
..........and a teacher of the disease of effeminacy to the rest of the Cythians.

MAY I SUGGEST THAT YOU SIGN UP FOR 'RUB ON TESTESTERONE YOU WILL FEEL BETTER AND YOUR BREASTS WILL SHRINK BACK.

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Thanks Donnie!!!

November 14 2010, 12:31 AM 

Donnie, 3 Things about your response of this article

1--Wonderful, Donnie, that you mentioned...."We do not prohibit the other side from posting its arguments and opinions,..."
---You mentioned 'the other side'-----that says it all. If they are on the side of God, then where does that leave you?
Matthew 12
30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

2--When do I get added to the list?
3--As far as editing......I will leave that up to you. I will take content over crossing a t any day.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Thanks Donnie!!!

November 14 2010, 5:43 AM 

Dave, 3 things:

1. "We do not prohibit the other side from posting its arguments and opinions,..." means: This website is "fair and balanced; we report, you decide." In addition, we will expose "the other side" -- the change agents -- and their erroneous beliefs and teachings acquired (BORROWED) from their denominational neighbors.

2. Supporters, followers and disciples of "change agents" are automatically and unconditionally added to the list.

3. I think that you misunderstood my suggestions regarding the PREVIEW or EDIT functions PRIOR TO posting. Here's what I meant, e.g., 3 of probably several occurrences. The following paragraphs beginning with:
"Its often been said...." vs. "It's often been said...."
"Its really about who God is...." vs. "It's really about who God is...."
"And its the most important...." vs. "And it's the most important...."
Remember its [oops ... that should be "it's"] not the original author's fault. Don't embarrass him/her.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.13.178

Re: Thanks Donnie!!!

November 14 2010, 10:23 AM 

Dave wrote to Donnie: "As far as editing......I will leave that up to you. I will take content over crossing a t any day." Dave takes a defensive attitude when anyone corrects him about spelling/punctuation. It's as if Dave is saying, "I don't give a plugged nickel for spelling/punctuation and prefer to be illiterate any day than to have YOU correct me!" That just mars whatever "content" Dave posts even more.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Thanks Donnie!!!

November 14 2010, 5:51 PM 

Actually, I was not correcting Dave. Rather, I was keeping Dave from embarrassing Jay Guin, the original author of the article that was copy-and-pasted. Dave did not bother to ensure that Jay Guin's article was accurately copied.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.26.5

Re: Thanks Donnie!!!

November 14 2010, 6:27 PM 

Well, if a person copies and pastes an article with numerous punctuation (or other) errors, it shows that the person either didn't read the article carefully or s/he didn't recognize whether the article was punctuated correctly or not. Poorly written or poorly punctuated articles leave a bad impression with literate readers, and the points that the authors try to make are diminished. Such articles say that the authors didn't bother to learn correct spelling or grammar or sentence structure or punctuation [whichever applies] in school and they just don't care what anybody thinks about that. The same applies to those readers who cannot or will not recognize the flaws in those articles.

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 8:16 PM 

The manner in which I COPIED and PASTED did not deviate in any way the message or authenticity of Jay Guin's message and original post in Wineskins. There was no need to EDIT.

Calm down boys. I know what I was getting into when I started posting here. Slanders and constant false accusations. The fact is that Paul speaks of wolves within. It's not so much the nonbelievers you have to worry about. It's beyond explanation that we have those who claim to believe but want to still think that they have a better way of doing thing than God has shown.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.18.213

Re: Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 9:37 PM 

Dave is trying to sound "righteous." What utter hypocrisy! Give us a break. For one who created threads at FaithSite to smear those with whom he disagreed and as one who continues to smear folks at Concerned Members, Dave should be the LAST person to accuse others of "slander," "false accusations," and being "wolves." Mote and beam, boy, mote and beam.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 9:54 PM 

Dave,

I think you've elevated your own blood pressure yourself.

I was only trying to protect Jay Guin, the author of the original article, from being criticized as a writer lacking in grammar proficiency. After all, YOU were the one who COPIED his written work, and you did not bother to review or preview to ensure that your copy-and-paste function worked properly.

And you did the same with Jay Guin's other article.

I really DO NOT CARE about how you draft your own messages for posting. They're never edited for that reason. But I think we all should be more careful when we publish someone else's article.

Just from that article alone, I found the following where the single quotation mark was missing. There may be more:
  • weve had 150 years
  • Its often been said
  • Its not really about what the early
  • but they arent the core
  • Its really about who God is
  • Thats the question
  • And its the most important question
  • theres really no end to
  • Of course, we arent alone
  • Rather, it just tells us that we arent alone in
  • does the fathers silence imply
That's not including missing quotation marks, dashes, etc., that were obviously present in Jay Guin's original article(s).

Your choice. But it has nothing to do with deviating from the content of the message. As far as content goes, as I said before, we haven't even begun to debate his opinions and ideas vs. the truth.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.18.213

Re: Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 10:20 PM 

When I posted articles by John Waddey, I noticed occasional typos and corrected them before posting.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 10:52 PM 

But in this case, it wasn't Jay Guin's fault. It was Dave who DID NOT PREVIEW the copied material to ensure it was exactly as originally written -- with or without grammatical errors.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.18.213

Re: Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 11:15 PM 

Dave said he copied and pasted Guin's articles. Alright, if they had the punctuation marks originally, why would the marks be missing when Dave pasted them, unless Dave's cut-and-paste software removed them, and Dave didn't bother to reinsert them? I submitted a response in more detail about that.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Blood Pressure

November 15 2010, 12:32 AM 

NOTE: I have a saved copy of Dr. Crump's earlier post. Sorry, but here it is now.


Dr. Bill Crump
Re: Blood Pressure


If Jay Guin's original articles lacked all those punctuation marks, why did Dave write, "There was no need to EDIT"? Or maybe Dave's cut-and-paste software removed all punctuation marks (if so, that's lousy software), in which case they should have been inserted afterwards--if Dave had been paying attention. Either way, Guin's articles should have been cleaned up as far as missing punctuation marks were concerned. Whatever the cause for the missing punctuation marks, good writing does NOT leave out those marks. Yet Dave apparently doesn't understand that. Absolutely unbelievable!


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

End of the Punctuation vs. Copy-and-Paste Controversy

November 15 2010, 1:47 AM 

I found Dave's source: On God's Salvation, Galatians, and the Instrument

I was very sure that the original online document was not the problem. As you can see for yourself, it was all there: the single quotation mark, double quotation mark, dash, italicization, even the unprintable character in "psallo" which became "psall" with the last character missing.

I pointed out in my initial response (first paragraph):

First, do you ever click "Preview" or "Edit" before you click "Respond" to submit your post? As you know, previewing or editing is really helpful as it ensures a more accurate reporting and better readability (such as a blank line between paragraphs). If in previewing, certain punctuation marks "disappear," use Notepad to locate and replace the marks (single quotation mark or apostrophe, double quotation mark, dash, etc.). Many of these marks are missing in the article above.


This forum network's editor, in the case of "copy-and-paste" data or information in the message text window, does not recognize certain punctuation marks and special characters. (Do not mistake the difference between: (a) the copied info and (b) what is actually being keyed in the text window.) So, to remedy the situation, find all these marks and special characters and rekey or key over them. You will notice the difference between the original and the rekeyed character.

The other alternative is to use "Notepad" to draft your post that involves "copy-and-paste" information. Use the same process as above in rekeying those special marks and special characters.

Final word -- we are not bringing up this issue anymore. This forum does not edit posts because of grammatical errors. We can only offer help or suggestion such as one described above.

There are numerous debatable viewpoints and opinions that Jay Guin has presented. Let's go on with the discussion.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.35

Progressive Plateaued

November 14 2010, 10:25 PM 

Jay, Chris and Rick whine, like the wolf who met a Lamb with a rod of iron who never was tolerant of the musical mockers. That's what they were doing in WinterPest.

The Future of the Progressive Churches of Christ

In the interview, Rick and Chris made a powerful point regarding the future of the progressive Churches of Christ, which is that these churches are plateaued and soon to die if they dont change.


pla·teau (pl-t)
n. pl. pla·teaus or pla·teaux (-tz)
1. An elevated, comparatively level expanse of land; a tableland.
2. A relatively stable level, period, or state: Mortgage rates declined, then reached a plateau.
intr.v. pla·teaued, pla·teau·ing, pla·teaus
To reach a stable level; level off: "The tension seemed to grow by degrees, then it plateaued" (Tom Clancy).

I think Donnie and Piney would say that the "progressives" did not plateaued so much as they were cut off below the Arch Support.

That means that on the 28000 foot summit, they scooped off about 12 feet of the crumbly stuff.

In the words of their Warlock (1 per 10,000 witches) they did not NAVIGATE the winds of change but huffed and puffed and even Job knew better:

Job 15:2 Should a wise man utter vain knowledge, and fill his belly with the east wind?
Job 15:3 Should he reason with unprofitable talk? or with speeches wherewith he can do no good?


I have done my review of Al Maxey and, I kid you not, the MARK is absolute: there is no recorded evidence that any religious musician has been any straighter than a coiled viper. I hate to out these people but the old PURPLE HAIRS had it figured out and fled Babylon long ago.

http://www.piney.com/Al.Maxey.Reflective.Regulative.Review.html







 
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AM
(no login)
75.89.66.220

Re: Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 10:33 PM 

This following is from the first paragraph. I am not sure why it is in parenthesis.

(Imagine that a father tells his son to cut the grass. The son agonizes over whether the instructions should be interpreted to permit him to listen to his iPod while he works or does the fathers silence imply a prohibition? He fights with his sisters over the correct interpretation and even divides the family, because he loves the father too much to tolerate the presence of those who disagree. He soon begins to wonder whether grass includes weeds. He agonizes so much he never cuts the grass but he presents his father with an excellent grammatical analysis of the command.)

Would not a son that was interested in doing the best job at cutting the grass, want to be certain that nothing would distract him from doing the best job possible? If listening to an iPod, does not allow the son to hear further instruction or the son is not able to hear the noise of the destruction of the mower, would not the iPod be wrong? And then the job of mowing the lawn does not get done, because of factors that had nothing to do with mowing the lawn got in the way, have we not shamed the father for not doing his will?
The son was told to do a job and something separated him from doing so.

In Jay's writing we can see why there is so many problems in society. If kids are not given at least the knowledge from the experience of an adult, there would become a completely unproductive society, for God and our fellow man. What church would have Jay as a leader?

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Assumptions

November 15 2010, 11:03 AM 

AM,
Are you ASSUMING that an Ipod would distract the son from doing the job? For some people music makes the job seem easier. The ipod would not cancel out all of the sounds of the mower even if the son had the volume of the ipod full blast. Why would that matter anyway? Is the sound of the mower going to keep the son from doing the job. If the son sees the mower cutting grass, does he need the sound of the mower?
You seem to assume a great deal.

 
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AM
(no login)
72.54.195.146

Re: Assumptions

November 15 2010, 3:19 PM 

Obviously the iPod and the lawn mower story, is an analogy about focus and worship. Would listening to an iPod during worship, distract from worship? Did Jesus look for an easier way to worship God? Would the iPod keep someone from hearing some soul asking for help? Would the iPod keep someone from doing what God wants us to do?

Do you wear an iPod to worship?

What do you think the iPod represents?

Have you noticed that when a kid has an iPod, he is oblivious to his surrounding, tends to ignore everything and interacts with no one. It is hard to express the fruit of the spirit if one does not interact.

You seem to not catch on!

Why is your heart so hard?

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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