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Jay Guin: List of False Teachings at Wineskins

November 11 2010 at 8:54 AM
Ken  (no login)
from IP address 130.127.43.117

Jay Guin: List of Reviews

http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Reviews.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.The.Promise.of.the.Holy.Spirit.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.What.is.Acceptable.Baptism.New.Wineskins.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Instrumental.Music.Old.Testament.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.New.Wineskins.Promoting.Instruments.Conclusions.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Church.of.the.Frst.Born.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.1.Corinthians.10.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.The.Fork.in.The.Road.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Dancing.in.Worship.html
http://www.piney.com/New.Wineskins.Instrumental.Galatians.Music.Jay.Guin.html

http://www.piney.com/Danny.Corbitt.Instruments.html
http://www.piney.com/Danny.Corbit.Justin.Martyr.Instrumental.Music.html




Jesus Christ the LOGOS is the Regulative Principle. People who are ANTI-Regulative are ANTI-Logos or ANTI-Christ.

http://www.piney.com/Regulative.Principle.and.Churches.of.Christ.html

People who debunk the Regulative Principle are attached to a Worship Service and not A School of Christ.

Jay Guin also teaches that the baptism of the holy spirit is still in effect:

Jay Guin The Promise of the Holy Spirit

http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.The.Promise.of.the.Holy.Spirit.html



http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Reviews.html

I posted that the Synagogue was the pattern for the Church of Christ in the wilderness.
It was INCLUSIVE of rest, reading and Rehearsing.
Jay follows Al Maxey who claims the synagogue was NOT commanded, men added the synagogue, therefore, WE can add instruments and sow discord and grace will cover up what he confesses is NOT commanded.

In fact Jesus added the Lord's Supper to the synagogue which was ONLY for reading and discussing the Word of Christ in the prophets and apostles. The Campbells called that A School of Christ (only)

I posted proof that all scholars including Stephen connected the ekklesia to the qahal or synagogue.
If these musical adders are wrong then they have passed beyond the zone of redemption.



Jay Guin defends K.C.Moser who taught that to OBEY the gospel meant that you BELIEVED the gospel. He says you cannot have faith in commands. I believe that Moser and disciples blaspheme the Spirit of Christ.

http://www.piney.com/K.C.Moser.Gospel.Obeyed.html

John would defined them as Antichrists for defining the Spirit OF Christ as another "people" about their size.

http://www.piney.com/K.C.Moser.Indwelling.Spirit.html




On God's Salvation, Galatians, and the Instrument

New Wineskins
by Jay Guin
September - October, 2010

Accompanied or A Capella?The instrumental debate in the Restoration Movement goes back to Civil War times, meaning that weve had 150 years to refine and sharpen our arguments. Both sides have gotten pretty good at making them and at ignoring what the other side says.

Its often been said, by both sides, that the dispute is ultimately all about hermeneutics, and indeed , it is. But the fork in the road is not where we normally say. Its not really about what the early Christian bishops wrote, nor about the meaning of psall, nor about how to read the silences of the scriptures. Not really. Of course, those arguments matter and need to be addressed, but they arent the core of the disagreement.

Its really about who God is and his eternal plan for his people. Did God send Jesus to save us to worship a cappella? Or did he have entirely different purposes in mind? Thats the question.

And its the most important question in the entire debate. You see, once we decide that God is the sort of God who might damn over a piano, we begin to worry about whether he might also damn over how we use the church treasury, whether women wear hats to church, or whether elders are re-affirmed. Once you envision a God who damns over such things, theres really no end to the rules that your God might damn you over.

For any student of Restoration Movement history, the fruit of our teaching is seen in our countless divisions. Of course, we arent alone. The Baptists and many other denominations are severely divided as well. But that hardly excuses our behavior. Rather, it just tells us that we arent alone in our failure to understand who God really is.

(Imagine that a father tells his son to cut the grass. The son agonizes over whether the instructions should be interpreted to permit him to listen to his iPod while he works or does the fathers silence imply a prohibition? He fights with his sisters over the correct interpretation and even divides the family, because he loves the father too much to tolerate the presence of those who disagree. He soon begins to wonder whether grass includes weeds. He agonizes so much he never cuts the grass but he presents his father with an excellent grammatical analysis of the command.)

(Luke 6:43-44 ESV)

43 "For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, 44 for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush.


.....more to come.......


    
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AuthorReply

(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

On God's Salvation, Galatians, and the Instrument (by Jay Guin)

November 11 2010, 3:30 PM 

Dave,

First, do you ever click "Preview" or "Edit" before you click "Respond" to submit your post? As you know, previewing or editing is really helpful as it ensures a more accurate reporting and better readability (such as a blank line between paragraphs). If in previewing, certain punctuation marks "disappear," use Notepad to locate and replace the marks (single quotation mark or apostrophe, double quotation mark, dash, etc.). Many of these marks are missing in the article above.

Based on the title, Jay Guin so far has not dealt with God's salvation and Galatians [I understand that this article is to be continued]. Instrumental music must be his specialty: he made that assertion in the first paragraph and it appears to be his main thrust in his article.

We do not prohibit the other side from posting its arguments and opinions, but you said nothing of Jay Guin's background. So, I will do that in order not to misled the reader.

In my response to Sonny's article titled "A Brief Historical Timeline Of The Genesis Of Change Agents In The Church Of Christ" [which is currently in a "locked" status], I listed a few of the "change agents" operating in the brotherhood as follows (and I will highlight Jay Guin's name -- the author of the article you've submitted for discussion):
-- Rubel Shelly
-- Max Lucado
-- Leroy Garret
-- John Mark Hicks
-- Joe Beam
-- Rick Atchley
-- Al Maxey
-- John York
-- Mike Cope
-- Ronnie Norman
-- Jay Guin -- author of above article
-- et al
The list of "change agents" is not complete by all means. The "et al" simply indicates there are more "change agents" not on the list.

Now that we have identified with which side Jay Guin aligns himself, another of Dave's favorite change agents (besides Al Maxey). let the discussion begin as many of Jay's statements are debatable.

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.144

Jay Guin on Galatians

November 12 2010, 12:05 AM 

http://www.piney.com/New.Wineskins.Instrumental.Galatians.Music.Jay.Guin.html

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Phil 3:3

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. Phil 3:2

G2699 katatom kat-at-om-ay' From a compound of G2596 and temn (to cut); a cutting down (off), that is, mutilation (ironically):concision. Compare G609 .

Noting that in the Greek world musicians even after people got wise and shut down the sacrificial altars were still called PARASITES because they didn't want to work for a living.

Iamblichus.

5. Because the begging priest with open mouth attempts in many ways to raise our expectations. 13

13. The agurtes or begging priest generally belonged to the worship of Rhea or Cybele, the Mother [Zoe]. He is frequently depicted in a most unfavorable light. Apuleius speaks of a company of these emasculate priests in the eighth book of the Metamorphoses. They are also described in the Republic of Plato: "Agurtæ and Mantics frequent the houses of the rich and persuade them that they possess a power granted by the gods to expiate,

by sacrifices and chants any unjust act that has been committed and that they induce the gods by blandishments and magic rites to help them.

They collected money in this way, and they also followed the selling of nostrums and telling of fortunes."

Gal 5:12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

51 - And on these days Galloi are made. For while the rest are playing flutes and performing their rites, frenzy soon enters into many

Lucretius (98 - c. 55 BC): The Worship of Cybele

Wherefore great Mother of gods, and Mother of beasts,
And parent of man hath she alone been named.
Her hymned the old and learned bards of Greece....

Do name Idaean , giving her

Escort of Phrygian bands, since first, they say,

From out those regions 'twas that grain began
Through all the world. To her do they assign
The Galli, the emasculate, since thus
They wish to show that men who violate
The majesty of the Mother and have proved
Ingrate to parents are to be adjudged
Unfit to give unto the shores of light

A living progeny. The Galli come:

And hollow cymbals, tight-skinned tambourines
Resound around to bangings of their hands;
The fierce horns threaten with a raucous bray;
The tubed pipe excites their maddened minds

In Phrygian measures; they bear before them knives,
Wild emblems of their frenzy, which have power
The rabble's ingrate heads and impious hearts
To panic with terror of the goddess' might.

All honour to that king of the Scythians, whoever Anacharsis was,
..........who shot with an arrow one of his subjects who imitated among the Scythians
the mystery of the Mother of the gods, as practised by the inhabitants of Cyzicus,

beating a drum and sounding a cymbal
strung from his neck like a priest of Cybele,
..........condemning him as having become effeminate among the Greeks,
..........and a teacher of the disease of effeminacy to the rest of the Cythians.

MAY I SUGGEST THAT YOU SIGN UP FOR 'RUB ON TESTESTERONE YOU WILL FEEL BETTER AND YOUR BREASTS WILL SHRINK BACK.

 
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Dave
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69.59.112.185

Thanks Donnie!!!

November 14 2010, 12:31 AM 

Donnie, 3 Things about your response of this article

1--Wonderful, Donnie, that you mentioned...."We do not prohibit the other side from posting its arguments and opinions,..."
---You mentioned 'the other side'-----that says it all. If they are on the side of God, then where does that leave you?
Matthew 12
30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

2--When do I get added to the list?
3--As far as editing......I will leave that up to you. I will take content over crossing a t any day.

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Thanks Donnie!!!

November 14 2010, 5:43 AM 

Dave, 3 things:

1. "We do not prohibit the other side from posting its arguments and opinions,..." means: This website is "fair and balanced; we report, you decide." In addition, we will expose "the other side" -- the change agents -- and their erroneous beliefs and teachings acquired (BORROWED) from their denominational neighbors.

2. Supporters, followers and disciples of "change agents" are automatically and unconditionally added to the list.

3. I think that you misunderstood my suggestions regarding the PREVIEW or EDIT functions PRIOR TO posting. Here's what I meant, e.g., 3 of probably several occurrences. The following paragraphs beginning with:
"Its often been said...." vs. "It's often been said...."
"Its really about who God is...." vs. "It's really about who God is...."
"And its the most important...." vs. "And it's the most important...."
Remember its [oops ... that should be "it's"] not the original author's fault. Don't embarrass him/her.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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70.156.13.178

Re: Thanks Donnie!!!

November 14 2010, 10:23 AM 

Dave wrote to Donnie: "As far as editing......I will leave that up to you. I will take content over crossing a t any day." Dave takes a defensive attitude when anyone corrects him about spelling/punctuation. It's as if Dave is saying, "I don't give a plugged nickel for spelling/punctuation and prefer to be illiterate any day than to have YOU correct me!" That just mars whatever "content" Dave posts even more.

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Thanks Donnie!!!

November 14 2010, 5:51 PM 

Actually, I was not correcting Dave. Rather, I was keeping Dave from embarrassing Jay Guin, the original author of the article that was copy-and-pasted. Dave did not bother to ensure that Jay Guin's article was accurately copied.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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70.156.26.5

Re: Thanks Donnie!!!

November 14 2010, 6:27 PM 

Well, if a person copies and pastes an article with numerous punctuation (or other) errors, it shows that the person either didn't read the article carefully or s/he didn't recognize whether the article was punctuated correctly or not. Poorly written or poorly punctuated articles leave a bad impression with literate readers, and the points that the authors try to make are diminished. Such articles say that the authors didn't bother to learn correct spelling or grammar or sentence structure or punctuation [whichever applies] in school and they just don't care what anybody thinks about that. The same applies to those readers who cannot or will not recognize the flaws in those articles.

 
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Dave
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69.59.112.185

Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 8:16 PM 

The manner in which I COPIED and PASTED did not deviate in any way the message or authenticity of Jay Guin's message and original post in Wineskins. There was no need to EDIT.

Calm down boys. I know what I was getting into when I started posting here. Slanders and constant false accusations. The fact is that Paul speaks of wolves within. It's not so much the nonbelievers you have to worry about. It's beyond explanation that we have those who claim to believe but want to still think that they have a better way of doing thing than God has shown.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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70.156.18.213

Re: Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 9:37 PM 

Dave is trying to sound "righteous." What utter hypocrisy! Give us a break. For one who created threads at FaithSite to smear those with whom he disagreed and as one who continues to smear folks at Concerned Members, Dave should be the LAST person to accuse others of "slander," "false accusations," and being "wolves." Mote and beam, boy, mote and beam.

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 9:54 PM 

Dave,

I think you've elevated your own blood pressure yourself.

I was only trying to protect Jay Guin, the author of the original article, from being criticized as a writer lacking in grammar proficiency. After all, YOU were the one who COPIED his written work, and you did not bother to review or preview to ensure that your copy-and-paste function worked properly.

And you did the same with Jay Guin's other article.

I really DO NOT CARE about how you draft your own messages for posting. They're never edited for that reason. But I think we all should be more careful when we publish someone else's article.

Just from that article alone, I found the following where the single quotation mark was missing. There may be more:
  • weve had 150 years
  • Its often been said
  • Its not really about what the early
  • but they arent the core
  • Its really about who God is
  • Thats the question
  • And its the most important question
  • theres really no end to
  • Of course, we arent alone
  • Rather, it just tells us that we arent alone in
  • does the fathers silence imply
That's not including missing quotation marks, dashes, etc., that were obviously present in Jay Guin's original article(s).

Your choice. But it has nothing to do with deviating from the content of the message. As far as content goes, as I said before, we haven't even begun to debate his opinions and ideas vs. the truth.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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70.156.18.213

Re: Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 10:20 PM 

When I posted articles by John Waddey, I noticed occasional typos and corrected them before posting.

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 10:52 PM 

But in this case, it wasn't Jay Guin's fault. It was Dave who DID NOT PREVIEW the copied material to ensure it was exactly as originally written -- with or without grammatical errors.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.18.213

Re: Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 11:15 PM 

Dave said he copied and pasted Guin's articles. Alright, if they had the punctuation marks originally, why would the marks be missing when Dave pasted them, unless Dave's cut-and-paste software removed them, and Dave didn't bother to reinsert them? I submitted a response in more detail about that.

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Blood Pressure

November 15 2010, 12:32 AM 

NOTE: I have a saved copy of Dr. Crump's earlier post. Sorry, but here it is now.


Dr. Bill Crump
Re: Blood Pressure


If Jay Guin's original articles lacked all those punctuation marks, why did Dave write, "There was no need to EDIT"? Or maybe Dave's cut-and-paste software removed all punctuation marks (if so, that's lousy software), in which case they should have been inserted afterwards--if Dave had been paying attention. Either way, Guin's articles should have been cleaned up as far as missing punctuation marks were concerned. Whatever the cause for the missing punctuation marks, good writing does NOT leave out those marks. Yet Dave apparently doesn't understand that. Absolutely unbelievable!


 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

End of the Punctuation vs. Copy-and-Paste Controversy

November 15 2010, 1:47 AM 

I found Dave's source: On God's Salvation, Galatians, and the Instrument

I was very sure that the original online document was not the problem. As you can see for yourself, it was all there: the single quotation mark, double quotation mark, dash, italicization, even the unprintable character in "psallo" which became "psall" with the last character missing.

I pointed out in my initial response (first paragraph):

First, do you ever click "Preview" or "Edit" before you click "Respond" to submit your post? As you know, previewing or editing is really helpful as it ensures a more accurate reporting and better readability (such as a blank line between paragraphs). If in previewing, certain punctuation marks "disappear," use Notepad to locate and replace the marks (single quotation mark or apostrophe, double quotation mark, dash, etc.). Many of these marks are missing in the article above.


This forum network's editor, in the case of "copy-and-paste" data or information in the message text window, does not recognize certain punctuation marks and special characters. (Do not mistake the difference between: (a) the copied info and (b) what is actually being keyed in the text window.) So, to remedy the situation, find all these marks and special characters and rekey or key over them. You will notice the difference between the original and the rekeyed character.

The other alternative is to use "Notepad" to draft your post that involves "copy-and-paste" information. Use the same process as above in rekeying those special marks and special characters.

Final word -- we are not bringing up this issue anymore. This forum does not edit posts because of grammatical errors. We can only offer help or suggestion such as one described above.

There are numerous debatable viewpoints and opinions that Jay Guin has presented. Let's go on with the discussion.

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.35

Progressive Plateaued

November 14 2010, 10:25 PM 

Jay, Chris and Rick whine, like the wolf who met a Lamb with a rod of iron who never was tolerant of the musical mockers. That's what they were doing in WinterPest.

The Future of the Progressive Churches of Christ

In the interview, Rick and Chris made a powerful point regarding the future of the progressive Churches of Christ, which is that these churches are plateaued and soon to die if they dont change.


pla·teau (pl-t)
n. pl. pla·teaus or pla·teaux (-tz)
1. An elevated, comparatively level expanse of land; a tableland.
2. A relatively stable level, period, or state: Mortgage rates declined, then reached a plateau.
intr.v. pla·teaued, pla·teau·ing, pla·teaus
To reach a stable level; level off: "The tension seemed to grow by degrees, then it plateaued" (Tom Clancy).

I think Donnie and Piney would say that the "progressives" did not plateaued so much as they were cut off below the Arch Support.

That means that on the 28000 foot summit, they scooped off about 12 feet of the crumbly stuff.

In the words of their Warlock (1 per 10,000 witches) they did not NAVIGATE the winds of change but huffed and puffed and even Job knew better:

Job 15:2 Should a wise man utter vain knowledge, and fill his belly with the east wind?
Job 15:3 Should he reason with unprofitable talk? or with speeches wherewith he can do no good?


I have done my review of Al Maxey and, I kid you not, the MARK is absolute: there is no recorded evidence that any religious musician has been any straighter than a coiled viper. I hate to out these people but the old PURPLE HAIRS had it figured out and fled Babylon long ago.

http://www.piney.com/Al.Maxey.Reflective.Regulative.Review.html







 
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AM
(no login)
75.89.66.220

Re: Blood Pressure

November 14 2010, 10:33 PM 

This following is from the first paragraph. I am not sure why it is in parenthesis.

(Imagine that a father tells his son to cut the grass. The son agonizes over whether the instructions should be interpreted to permit him to listen to his iPod while he works or does the fathers silence imply a prohibition? He fights with his sisters over the correct interpretation and even divides the family, because he loves the father too much to tolerate the presence of those who disagree. He soon begins to wonder whether grass includes weeds. He agonizes so much he never cuts the grass but he presents his father with an excellent grammatical analysis of the command.)

Would not a son that was interested in doing the best job at cutting the grass, want to be certain that nothing would distract him from doing the best job possible? If listening to an iPod, does not allow the son to hear further instruction or the son is not able to hear the noise of the destruction of the mower, would not the iPod be wrong? And then the job of mowing the lawn does not get done, because of factors that had nothing to do with mowing the lawn got in the way, have we not shamed the father for not doing his will?
The son was told to do a job and something separated him from doing so.

In Jay's writing we can see why there is so many problems in society. If kids are not given at least the knowledge from the experience of an adult, there would become a completely unproductive society, for God and our fellow man. What church would have Jay as a leader?

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Assumptions

November 15 2010, 11:03 AM 

AM,
Are you ASSUMING that an Ipod would distract the son from doing the job? For some people music makes the job seem easier. The ipod would not cancel out all of the sounds of the mower even if the son had the volume of the ipod full blast. Why would that matter anyway? Is the sound of the mower going to keep the son from doing the job. If the son sees the mower cutting grass, does he need the sound of the mower?
You seem to assume a great deal.

 
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AM
(no login)
72.54.195.146

Re: Assumptions

November 15 2010, 3:19 PM 

Obviously the iPod and the lawn mower story, is an analogy about focus and worship. Would listening to an iPod during worship, distract from worship? Did Jesus look for an easier way to worship God? Would the iPod keep someone from hearing some soul asking for help? Would the iPod keep someone from doing what God wants us to do?

Do you wear an iPod to worship?

What do you think the iPod represents?

Have you noticed that when a kid has an iPod, he is oblivious to his surrounding, tends to ignore everything and interacts with no one. It is hard to express the fruit of the spirit if one does not interact.

You seem to not catch on!

Why is your heart so hard?

 
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Dave
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130.127.43.117

Whose Heart is Hard???

November 15 2010, 4:35 PM 

AM,
The whole story represented the parallel from our command and from the Scriptures of.... TO SING.... and the father's simple instructions in 'cutting the grass.' AM, please let me know if I you are not connecting here, ok? The story had NOTHING to do with listening to an iPod during worship, or misusing an iPod in any way for our Lord.
Since God tells us TO SING.....do we have the freedom to sing a solo, with a praise team, with a choir, or having a piano to accompany our singing? These freedoms are taken away by man.....NOT GOD. God told us to sing.
NOW AM, we go to the father's instructions of 'mowing the grass.' The father didn't say how to cut the grass....he just said to cut it. Would an iPod be sinful if the boy used it while cutting the grass. The grass still gets cut, doesn't it??? However, the father did not SPECIFICALLY tell the son that he could use an ipod.....now did he? Does it matter that there were no instructions about the use of the iPod?
Not really.
If the iPod helps the son in doing a better job (since he obviously loves music), or getting the job done faster, then all is well.
The main point here, and also...is this.....if the father would have NOT wanted the son to have used the iPod, he would have so instructed.
Are you catching on AM?

 
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AM
(no login)
75.89.66.220

Re: Whose Heart is Hard???

November 15 2010, 6:49 PM 

"The whole story represented the parallel from our command and from the Scriptures of.... TO SING.... "

GOT IT!

and there is not an instrument involved!

" The father didn't say how to cut the grass....he just said to cut it."

Yes, and that is where an example would come in. How were we shown to cut the grass?

How were we shown to worship?

So we are told to worship God and then given an example on how we are to worship. A perfect example that really needs no explanation, that was given by Jesus himself! All is good, except for those who do not like to follow examples of our Lord. Dave, please give me a scripture that says Jesus played anything while worshiping God. Betcha can't!




 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
170.141.177.53

The Law of Silence

November 15 2010, 6:12 PM 

In dealing with the "worship" issue, creating an image of the Virgin Mary ("Mother of God" per the RCC creed) to be worshiped would be a better illustration than the iPod and cutting the grass.

Although we have a timid illustration of the iPod which involves only listening, we'll just try to deal with that, anyway, because the example still shows a key point concerning mechanical music in worship, the question: "Does the father's silence imply a prohibition?"

It all boils down to the issue [check the title above] of "the law of silence."

OK, just briefly (for me due to lack of time), here are the differences to consider:
  • The Restoration Movement: The Law of Silence means -- "We speak where the Bible speaks; we are silent where the Bible is silent""

    ---------- versus ----------

  • The Change Agents' Movement: The Law of Silence means -- "God authorizes whatever/whenever the Scripture does NOT say 'NOT TO.'""

Take it from there.

 
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Dave
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69.59.112.185

Law of Silence is in what Book and Verse?

November 15 2010, 8:05 PM 

There is no 'Law of Silence.'
There is no such law. That is only man trying to make his traditions to be THE ONLY true way to worship God.
It is NOT!
The True Worship to our Lord is from the heart and is not limited to a certain tradition.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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74.241.153.91

Re: Law of Silence is in what Book and Verse?

November 15 2010, 10:59 PM 

If there is no Law of Silence, because the New Testament doesn't explicitly mention it, then if we use Dave's fallacious reasoning, there must not be a "Bible" or "Holy Bible," since those terms also do not exist anywhere in what we call the "Bible." Dave will have to throw away his "Bible," since that is what is printed on the front cover! Surely Dave would not want to possess any book that's called by something not mentioned in the written Word of God! But just because a term, name, or phrase does not appear in Scripture text as such, does that mean it is not at all relevant? Observe:

The fact of the matter is that man devises certain names, terms, and phrases for spiritual things, and those designations do not detract from God's Word. "Bible" and "Holy Bible" are man's terms for the written Word of God, and there is nothing wrong with them.

Likewise, the designation "Christ's Requirements for Salvation" accurately describes the requirements for salvation that Christ has specified in the New Testament. No, that man-made designation does not appear in Scripture, yet it does not in any way detract from what Christ requires. There is a thread by that same title on this site.

Likewise, man has designated Matt. 5-7 as "The Sermon on the Mount," yet that term does not appear in Scripture text. Sure, Bible page headings and footnotes may say "The Sermon on the Mount," but Bible page headings and footnotes are man-made. BTW, would Dave want a "Bible" with man-made page headings and footnotes? Surely Dave doesn't think that those man-made page headings and footnotes were included in the original manuscripts! happy.gif

And then the Law of Silence is simply man's way of saying that we speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where the Bible is silent. We have no authority to take God's specific commands and tweak them to suit our personal preferences. Since we are told not to go above what is written in Scripture (1 Cor. 4:6), then "Law of Silence" is a way to describe that if God issues a command and specifies certain things about it and does not include (is silent about) other things in that command), then bringing in what God has not specified in that command is sinful.

 
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AM
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75.89.66.220

Re: Law of Silence is in what Book and Verse?

November 15 2010, 11:28 PM 

"The True Worship to our Lord is from the heart and is ..."limited to the example that Jesus gave us.

 
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Dave
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130.127.43.117

To Agree or Not to Agree

November 16 2010, 8:57 AM 

I agree with AM and couldn't get past William Crump's first statement of 'Holy Bible' not being in the Scriptures.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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70.156.13.99

Re: To Agree or Not to Agree

November 16 2010, 10:59 AM 

It may actually shock Dave to know that the words "Bible" and "Holy Bible" are man-made terms. They do not appear in Scripture text in any of the standard translations. The only place they appear are on the front covers, introductory remarks by editorial staff of publishing houses, and perhaps in footnotes and explanatory notes that accompany the text, all of which are man-made additions to Scripture text. Dave will not find the following phraseology or any like it in Scripture text: "Open your Holy Bibles"; "The Bible says..."; "In the Holy Bible..."; "Read your Bible..." etc. That Dave couldn't get past my first statement of "Holy Bible" not being in the Scriptures is an obvious denial of the truth.

 
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AM
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75.89.77.30

Re: To Agree or Not to Agree

November 16 2010, 8:55 PM 

I do not know where we are going with the conversation, yet it does look like a snake that eats its tail.

On to deeper thoughts.

Yes. I agree that Dr. Crump's observations are interesting. Another thought, no where in the Bible is there a reference to the word of God, as the written Bible. In fact the word of God was with God from the beginning(as John 1:1 states)and he was not talking about the Bible. Obviously the Bible was not with God in the Beginning. So what is "The Word of God"?


 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.141

The Word of God is His WORDS

November 16 2010, 9:29 PM 

Psa. 33:4 For the word of THE LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
Psa. 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
Psa. 33:6 By the (1) word [Dabar=Logos) of the (2) LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the (3) breath (Spirit) of his mouth.
Psa. 33:7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
Psa. 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
Psa. 33:9 For HE spake, and it was done;
HE commanded, and it stood fast.

There is only ONE invisible, inaudible Deity.
When HE began to SPEAK His WORDS were His SON (say all classical trinitarians)
The Spirit of God is the BREATH of God: it is invisible, inaudible and like the wind carries power.
The SON articulates the BREATH of the SPEAKER so we can hear.

Whatever the SON articulates is SPIRIT (congealed)

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life.

When the Eye and Ear witnesses recorded their messages as Peter left us a memory in written form that BECOMES the Word of God.

Heb. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the WORD of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb. 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have SPOKEN unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Luke 5:1 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

That's why there is absolutely no human able or authorized to tamper with the Word of God to make it more POWERFUL to make people feel powerful.

The Command is to PREACH the word by READING the word and discussing it so that that assigned text (as in the synagogue) is brought to bear: the Word transfers SPIRIT as MIND of Christ.

 
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AM
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72.54.195.146

Re: The Word of God is His WORDS

November 17 2010, 5:22 PM 

"The Spirit of God is the BREATH of God: it is invisible, inaudible and like the wind carries power."

Mr. Sublett,

I like this statement, it rings to level of understanding I have of the Holy Spirit. What is seen in most church-goers is a repetitiveness of an act(going to church) without a knowledge, understanding or desire to know the Holy Spirit. Most Preachers today seem to lack a depth of spiritual knowledge, which is strange because preachers spend their educational years working to get that job, and end up speaking to people about popular issues in the culture. Therefore all that is committed to by the flock and the leaders is powerlessness for God.

It makes one wonder why church groups haven't figured out that they are actually being led by the wordly educated(the MDIV, Degrees in Bible, degrees in youth ministry) and are not being led by the spiritually enlightened. Everyone at that level of "Christian compensated service" follow along so they can keep their job, not following to be faithful to the understanding of Jesus. Edlerships(or better called the church board of directors) will only consider those canidates, for the most lofty positions, which have earned the best credentials from a University. That is most interesting when you consider that Jesus highlighted one of the most faithful as the woman that gave, two mytes(mites), all that see had. One should see that faithfullness and spirit filled is not found in a college degree, master's degree or Ph.D. Not to say that some with those degrees have not found a spiritual understanding.

Realizing that our churches are becoming less and less spirit driven, makes one wonder what is the purpose of church. If churches lost their preacher or staff or building, that church could survive. But if there was a loss of the contribution, the church would go away. This would explain what we are dealing with in the brotherhood today, "A purpose Driven life and a Money driven church". Far from the Spirit directed life that Jesus lived or the church he died to save.


 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.11

No ROLES: no DOLES. All for the DESTITUTE: none for the INSTITUTE.

November 17 2010, 6:26 PM 

Everyone at that level of "Christian compensated service" follow along so they can keep their job, not following to be faithful to the understanding of Jesus. Edlerships(or better called the church board of directors) will only consider those canidates, for the most lofty positions, which have earned the best credentials from a University.

That's the way prophecy plays out: sorry about that but it's all laid out. You should not expect any person with the highest level of "scholarship" to have ever spent much time in the Bible.

Luke 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect,
.....which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily.
.....Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh,
.....shall he find faith on the earth?

I tend to pull my punches on the theory that there may be some real educated and dedicated preachers out there. However, Scripture makes it perfectly clear that there are no ROLES justifying a DOLE.

Christ in Spirit define the future REST for His children after He had peeled the clergy off our backs.
A laded burden is the kind of gender-revealing praise singing, and a burden lader is someone waged to break our backs. They even sing 'Jesus paid it all.' In Matthew 13 Jesus said that the truth had been hidden from them from the foundation of the world in parables. So, not the best scholarship can read black text on brown paper.

In Isaiah 55 Christ defined the FREE water of the Word and told us not to use our bread money to buy it. That is because God's thoughts are not our thoughts. Honest preachers would "teach that which has been taught" and the way it is taught.

Isaiah 58 commands us not to seek our own pleasure or speak our own words. That's what Paul commanded in Romans 14-15.

The term "private interpretation" means further expounding: that would deny the power of the Word and would not be tolerated in the old synagogue.

The term "corrupt the word" means "selling learning at retail" or "adultery."

Paul knew that evangelists need to be supoorted "as they go." But church history denies that there are ROLES which demand a wage or that there was a "law of giving" which could be used like a weapon by those riding tandem on widows and honest working people.

I would expect to see it get worse and worse so that, like the first advent which had lots of explicit warning and did not understand the Messiah until He had been there and gone, I don't expect any literal trumpets or signs that the average "churcher" or their "pastor person" will have recognized until Jesus returns and is gone.

Like the elders in Israel, Paul warns us that the wolves will be elders who open the gates. Money does corrupt and attract the parasites.

I tend to believe that the sudden, massive, end-time plotting at highest levels in most Bible-based groups, to claim a "spirit" told them to IMPOSE professional singing teams intending to add instrments has promises.

Those who have abandoned the Word and boast about it even at the once-Christian college level, are promised STRONG DELUSIONS so they believe their own lie and are damned. Lying Wonders are specificially dramatic or musical performances which CLAIM that they came from God or intend to worship God.

2012 marks the last major event about 6500 years ago and the last ice age which fits the last crossing of the galactic center. I am keeping my fingers crossed and my head far away from any trumpet quartet.




 
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AM
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75.89.77.30

Re: No ROLES: no DOLES. All for the DESTITUTE: none for the INSTITUTE.

November 17 2010, 9:14 PM 

You make some interesting points. My family, from Grandparents to the extended family, have vowed to only support what Jesus said to support, which is not churches or a book seller. There are orphans, which the churches select to care for, of course only after the contribution has covered the staff's salary and benefits packages. And then there is the obligatory speech by the minister about "what a giving church you are". Should make us all sick. I am embarrassed to see a high paid staff, live from the collection plate, they have no understanding or shame. Does anyone really want to get paid a salary for teaching Jesus? I think that is a bigger shame and sham than what we see going on as reported in the American news media. The life blood of this beast is money, so we should support the lamb and give directly to the orphans and widows. Cut the life off to this beast.

The church PR people will alter church services anyway they can to keep the "Jesus market" alive. I wonder how many Elder/Board meetings discussed church marketing? The churches added soft music, then louder music, then rock music, then Jesus pop... What do you think will be added next. Maybe a choice of communion drink and bread. Mr. Sublet, how many choices of worship did Jesus offer? And assuming we are a church trying to following Jesus, why do the leaders seem so blind? Or are we a church trying to follow the likes of Rick Atchley and others?


 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
207.65.198.86

Jay Guin Defends K.C.Moser whom I believe blasphemes

August 8 2011, 3:00 PM 

bump

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
199.27.128.82

Galatians 5: Music and Witchcraft and Burning

March 22 2011, 11:09 PM 

I find it supernatural that people addicted to deliberately sowing discord using the instrument thingy, fit the pattern of the Word of God. When the Israelites rejected the Word of God and demanded a human mediator they fell into musical idolatry: as a result they were blind and could never read BLACK text on BROWN paper until they converted to Christ at baptism. It is part of the pattern, therefore, that they also deny and actively promote the idea that Jesus and all recorded history (before them) were liars.

Paul can be best understood as a commentary on the Old Testament. In Romans 1 he defines the musical fall from grace at Mount Sinai and in ALL of his inclusive and exclusive pattern for the church first gives the leaders the task of silencing all of the hypocritic arts and crafts. Of course, they deny that.

Notice that the galli (dogs) of Cybel or the mother goddess (at a worship service near you) are the patternism for the "a cappella" fellas imported by the Pope. Modern ACappella derive from the Capella or Caper or goat performers offered as a NOT commanded burnt offering in Jay's patternism. The witchcraft (later) are the sorcerers in Revelation 18 as "fruits" is lifted totally by the Musical Worship Teams with or without instruments. Note that a musical instrument is a machine for doing hard work and this is THE meaning of legalism.

Notice that John Chrysostom interpreted this exactly as Paul's WORDS teach but not for the discorders.

[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.132.174

Jay Guin blinks

December 16 2011, 1:55 PM 

http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Reviews.html

I posted that the Synagogue was the pattern for the Church of Christ in the wilderness.
It was INCLUSIVE of rest, reading and Rehearsing.
Jay follows Al Maxey who claims the synagogue was NOT commanded, men added the synagogue, therefore, WE can add instruments and sow discord and grace will cover up what he confesses is NOT commanded.

In fact Jesus added the Lord's Supper to the synagogue which was ONLY for reading and discussing the Word of Christ in the prophets and apostles. The Campbells called that A School of Christ (only)

I posted proof that all scholars including Stephen connected the ekklesia to the qahal or synagogue.
If these musical adders are wrong then they have passed beyond the zone of redemption.



 
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Dave
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64.234.85.24

Post Post Post Post Post

December 20 2011, 12:54 PM 

It is really ok Ken....you never have followed the subject nor posting date. You just post.....so keep posting.

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Jay Guin: a "Change Agent" and Proud of Being One

January 7 2012, 3:37 PM 

This is public knowledge, so ConcernedMembers did not originate this info. It is not valid to think that change agents are only "other members of the church" or "from denominational groups" that infiltrate congregations of the church of Christ and subvert, intrude upon their affairs, conquer, divide and acquire.

Wait, there are elders and leaders of the church of Christ who are "change agents" among us.

An article titled "Jay Guin, Change Agent" points out the following:

Jay Guin is an elder at University Church of Christ in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. He serves as an elder and is busy teaching and shepherding the flock. Jay is also an attorney so the bills get paid at home. He has been a speaker at some of the most popular and well-known Church of Christ lectureships and is an author. His book The Holy Spirit and Revolutionary Grace: Gods antidotes for division within the Churches of Christ and at least four others are favorites of many readers.

Jay Guin has also responded to The Christian Chronicle's article on the directory of churches of Christ, including those "historically a cappella churches with instrumental services." [I'll post this one when time permits ... for your evaluation of the mind of a change agent.

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Jay Guin: a "Change Agent" and Proud of Being One

January 8 2012, 8:43 PM 

HELP Needed:

I have visited Jay's congregation's website. Here are some of my observations:

a) Jay Guin is one of the elders.
b) In "What We Believe," "Salvation" and "Baptism" are separate topics.
c) The congregation has organized Praise Teams--I'm sure they REHEARSE "worship."
d) "Wineskins" is one of "Other Helpful Resources."
e) "Grace Centered Magazine" is one of "Other Helpful Resources."
d) Here's the help I need: Does the church use IM in its assemblies?

http://www.universitycofc.org/index.html

Jay is one elder who responded to the issue of the inclusion of a handful of instrumental music churches of Christ in the directory of a cappella churches of Christ. He made the following comments:

Why is it the instrumental music is a fellowship issue and, say, steeples on the building are not? Where I grew up, steeples were quite controversial.
. . .
And those who wish to divide over the instrument have never articulated a sensible, Bible-based standard for distinguishing instrumental music from all the other issues over which we dont divide.

I would not have Jay as my lawyer as he pays no attention to details concerning MAJOR doctrinal controversies. His argument about "steeples on the building" reminds me so much of Dave Fields' third-grade level argument about equating the PA system with musical devices. Dave is also an elder at another university church (Clemson, SC).

If it is true that UCC (AL) does not indulge in the mechanical operation of musical devices in any of its assemblies, what is Jay Guin, an elder, waiting for? Of course, he knows that instrumental music in the church of Christ is CONTROVERSIAL, UNNECESSARY and DIVISIVE in the church.

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.77.121

Jay is an ANTI because he refuses to learn

January 8 2012, 9:41 PM 

I knew Perry Mason. He was a friend of mine. Believe me, Jay Guin is no Perry Mason.

Jesus marks the Sons of the Devil--because they speak on their own. These ANTI Christian troublers in Zion are using their human imagination which God says is "only evil continueally." They take quotes out of context and have not the slightest interesting in understanding the message or story line. They are standing in the bar of justice and being their own lswyer thinking that they can trump God who speaks to the Church of Christ in the Prophets and apostles. They think that they are being acquitted just because they withhold evidence.

Why is it the instrumental music is a fellowship issue and, say, steeples on the building are not? Where I grew up, steeples were quite controversial.
. . .
And those who wish to divide over the instrument have never articulated a sensible, Bible-based standard for distinguishing instrumental music from all the other issues over which we dont divide.


That of course is a lie: He and the small band IMPOSE instruments into YOUR property and claim that YOU are DIVISIVE for being offended and robbed. I don't know of any more Satanic lie used by all of the discorders.

Jay does not know, cannot know that Church is A School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles: all of the prophets repudiate musical instruments as the mark of Lucifer the singing and harp playing prostitute. All recorded history understands that religious musical performers WERE defacto effeminate or castrated males (Galatians 5) and the "fruits" who served the Mother Goddesses. People understand the PERSONA of instrumental performers CLAIMING to lead you into the presence of God. As long as they do not know that most edifice complex is a Phallic Symbol that is normally not divisive and does NOT hinder the role of Church as A School (only) of Christ (only). If he cannot grasp the meaning of a Discipl of Christ He cannot be one in any sense.

The other defacto lie in their web page.

Our Biblical Mandate
Ephesians 4:11-13 says, And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

He prefers to IGNORE that Paul says that these elders are given to SIT DOWN AND SILENCE all of the performers whom Jesus called hypocrites: sermonizers, singers and instrument players.'

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro,
and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


-Panourg-êma A. knavish trick, villainy, S.El.1387 (lyr.), LXX Si.1.6 (v.l.); sophistry, Gal.5.251; cf. panourgeuma.

-Sophia A. cleverness or skill in handicraft and art, as in carpentry, tektonos, hos rha te pass eu eid s. Il.15.412; of the Telchines, Pi.O.7.53; h entekhnos s., of Hephaestus and Athena, Pl.Prt.32 1d; of Daedalus and Palamedes, X.Mem.4.2.33, cf. 1.4.2; in music and singing, tekhn kai s. h.Merc.483, cf. 511; in poetry, Sol.13.52, Pi.O.1.117


Simon the father of Judas was Telchine. The Judas Bag is always attached to a New Wineskin flute case.


[linked image]

NO ONE who can say that God does not utterly condemn any performers in HIS Bible class are wantonly ignorant of the Word of God and are like simple Simons who get a job in brain surgery because they saw a surgery on TV.

I don't believe Jesus will ALLOW them to understand because they have mocked so much that they believe their own strong delusions: the proof is that he supports lying wonders or "religious services using all of the performing arts and crafts."

I would not even suggest repentance for those who have sought fame and fortune blaming the offended for being forced out of their own property. It IS possible that they believe that the widow who fed their face is divisive for running her face into his fist.




 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Jay is an ANTI because he refuses to learn

January 10 2012, 1:04 AM 

JAY'S COMMENTS:
[1] Why is it the instrumental music is a fellowship issue and, say, steeples on the building are not? Where I grew up, steeples were quite controversial.
. . .
[2] And those who wish to divide over the instrument have never articulated a sensible, Bible-based standard for distinguishing instrumental music from all the other issues over which we dont divide.

RESPONSE TO JAY:

[1] Jay fails to comprehend that we are speaking of "fellowship" here uniquely in reference to the brotherhood of churches of Christ [non-instrumental] -- NOT a conglomerate of Protestant religious bodies. Jay, it is about churches of Christ -- NOT the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church. How OFTEN do we have to inculcate upon your cranium that the church of Christ does not indulge in mechanical, instrumental music in its assemblies?

Jay's piano/trumpet vs. steeple analogy is pathetic, ludicrous and illogical. On one hand, the musician blows the trumpet or plays the piano -- a mechanical operation that man may decide to perform in the assembly. On the other hand, the steeple is part of a structure -- no one would dare to play with it or mechanically operate it [well, a criminal might vandalize it].

Like it or not, instrumental music is a MAJOR issue in the church of Christ. Therefore, instrumental music is a MAJOR FELLOWSHIP issue in the church of Christ.

[2] If there are "those who wish to divide over the instrument," Jay Guin, it is folks like you, the progressives and liberals in the church. Leave the church of Christ alone and don't push your inanimate-and-lifeless-musical-instruments agenda into the fellowship of churches of Christ, and you will soon find out that no member of the church wishes to divide.

In distinguishing one issue that divides from another issue that doesn't divide, no one can articulate a sensible, Bible-based standard for a NON-Bible-based or doctrine or teaching such as playing musical instruments and dancing for the Lord in the assembly. No directive FROM GOD to perform and dance for Him exists -- NONE from the Old Testament and NONE from the New Testament. NONE ... NONE ... NONE. FYI, directives from man-to-man do not count. Only God's.

VALID CONCLUSION: Instrumental music in the assembly of saints is CONTROVERSIAL, UNNECESSARY and DIVISIVE in the church of Christ. "Touch not, taste no, handle not intoxicating drinks." Same is true with inanimate, lifeless musical devices and accessories ... in the gathering of saints.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.211.79

Re: Jay is an ANTI because he refuses to learn

January 10 2012, 9:54 AM 

One of Jay's comments: "[2] And those who wish to divide over the instrument have never articulated a sensible, Bible-based standard for distinguishing instrumental music from all the other issues over which we dont divide."

Jay apparently refuses to accept the fact that the New Testament addresses music and specifies vocal music; hence, vocal music is the biblical standard but other forms of music are NOT. On the other hand, the New Testament does not address church steeples (or PA systems); hence, they should not enter into a discussion about standards, because they are not even biblical issues. Vocal music is a biblical issue; church steeples (and PA systems) are not.

It's that simple. Only the rebellious will refuse to see that.

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

No Diviersity with Ken and Donnie

January 10 2012, 11:17 AM 

Donnie,
Since you and Ken are the only ones posting these days, see if Ken can answer your six questions a-b-c-d-e-d.


No Donnie, it wasn't my mistake, but yours done in haste when you posted (d) twice.

That way at least you two are unified for a cause....still trying to understand WHAT cause it is, but a cause nonetheless.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.13.108

Re: No Diviersity [sic] with Ken and Donnie

January 10 2012, 8:23 PM 

Dave accused Donnie of typing "a-b-c-d-e-d" [sic] "in haste," yet Dave was in such haste to smear Donnie that he flubbed his message title. Dave typed "Diviersity" instead of "Diversity."

It looks like Dave will dine on some crow for awhile.

 
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Sonny
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99.186.93.107

Continual Lack of Substance and Lack of Relevance

January 10 2012, 9:23 PM 

...and this is the reason for a diminishing viewership and a lack of significant influence among Churches of Christ at concerned members. This ball of wax is all entertaining theater to Brother Crump. Personally, observing "the trio" brothers Cruz, Sublett and Crump amplify their theological minutia drivel rather than the worthy cause of Jesus is pitiful.

-Sonny

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.135.242

Crump is not online!

January 10 2012, 9:37 PM 

Hab. 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood,
....Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach!
....Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver,
....and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.
Hab. 2:20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

David wanted to AWAKEN his lyre so hecould a awaken the dawn: Dawn if the mother of Lucifer: they HAD been abandoned to worship the starry host and David's praise word meaning to make yourself vile with light or sound" is the root for the Lucifer Word.

During the Intertestament periode these arousal songs were silenced because they were identical to all pagan rituals who had to make lots of instrumental noise to get the attention of their gods: My God has really good ears, sorry about yours.

Arnobius one of those the musicators DENY said anything against instruments.

http://www.piney.com/FatArnoHerVI.html

25. For what grandeur-if you look at the truth without any prejudice -is there in these images of which they speak, that the men of old should have had reason to hope and think that, by beholding them, the vices of men could be SUBDUED, and their morals and wicked ways brought under restraint?

The reaping-hook, for example, which was assigned to Saturn, was it to inspire mortals with fear, that they should be willing to live peacefully, and to abandon their malicious inclinations? Janus, with double face, or that spiked key by which he has been distinguished; Jupiter, cloaked and bearded, and holding in his right hand a piece of wood shaped like a thunderbolt; the cestus of Juno, or the maiden lurking under a soldier's helmet;

the mother of the gods, with her timbrel; the Muses, with their pipes and psalteries; Mercury, the winged slayer of Argus; Aesculapius, with his staff; Ceres, with huge breasts, or the drinking cup swinging in Liber's right hand; Mulciber, with his workman s dress; or Fortune, with her horn full of apples, figs, or autumnal fruits; Diana, with half-covered thighs, or Venus naked, exciting to lustful desire; Anubis, with his dog's face; or Priapus, of less importance than his own genitals: were these expected to make men afraid?

26. O dreadful forms of terror and frightful bugbears on account of which the human race was to be benumbed for ever,

to attempt nothing in its utter amazement, and to restrain itself from every wicked and shameful act-little sickles, keys, caps, pieces of wood, winged sandals, staves,

little timbrels, pipes, psalteries, breasts protruding and of great size, little drinking cups, pincers, and horns filled with fruit, the naked bodies of women, and huge veretra openly exposed!

Would it not have been better to dance and to sing, than calling it gravity and pretending to be serious, to relate what is so insipid and so silly, that images were formed by the ancients to check wrongdoing, and to arouse the fears of the wicked and impious?


No reader can escape the fact that instruments were always used to INDUCE FEAR so that people will march into battle or shiver with ecstasy at those who CLAIM that they are Messiah by claiming to lead you into the presence of God: this is an affect image which the ignorant and superstitious really believe. That "feeling" is not worship it is quaking fear to make it impossible for you, little man, to question "God's anointeds." Elders who are WOLVES love to engage in the hunting rituals which are erotic.


I hate to upset you but this is a TEACHING FORUM and it can be found all over the internet. People then read the posts and hear some real Bible. I am the only one on Piney.com because I don't need the snip-snap-and-bit.

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.135.242

Jay and Baptism

January 10 2012, 10:00 PM 

Jay just posted a good paper on baptism.

 
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B
(no login)
98.87.23.164

Re: Continual Lack of Substance and Lack of Relevance

January 10 2012, 10:18 PM 

Sonny wails about the so-called "minutia drivel" going on here. We need to remind Sonny that he has contributed quite well to that "drivel" by asking asinine questions, such as whether it's scriptural to sing with one's eyes closed. I'm not surprised that Sonny conveniently failed to mention Dave's jumping on Donnie for duplicating one letter in a sequence. That's just as much "drivel" as Sonny's question about singing with closed eyes. Now THAT is "entertaining theater!" LOVL.

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Continual Lack of Substance and Lack of Relevance

January 10 2012, 11:57 PM 

"Continual Lack of Substance and Lack of Relevance" exactly describes the liberals' and the progressives' response against the truth and their failure to understand the truth. To them, man's opinions, suppositions, , guesses and untruths are substantive and relevant, instead.

Wrong, "trio" Sonny, Ray and Dave. It's your PA-systems, closed-eyes, etc., doctrinal arguments that are laughable.

Ken Sublett is correct -- this is a TEACHING FORUM. Do not for a moment underestimate the viewership -- you do not have the stats.

Truth deviants and church antagonists really should leave the church of Christ alone. Start your own church from scratch, and cease from disturbing peaceful congregations. If starting a church is unaffordable, better yet, JOIN the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church and the Community Church -- they will welcome you with open arms.

 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.118.143

we dont [sic] divide

January 10 2012, 10:41 PM 

One of Jay's comments: "[2] And those who wish to divide over the instrument have never articulated a sensible, Bible-based standard for distinguishing instrumental music from all the other issues over which we dont [sic] divide."

**************************************************

"B", I think we all make mistakes. Let's not go there.

 
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B
(no login)
98.87.22.131

Re: we dont [sic] divide

January 11 2012, 9:48 AM 

If Racnor will examine Donnie's earlier post wherein he quoted Jay, Racnor will note that the word "don't" appeared there as "dont" without the apostrophe. Whether that is Donnie's typo or Jay's typo is of no concern to me. My post simply reproduced that quote verbatim. And no, let's not continue to dwell on "minutia drivel," to use Sonny's term. We've already seen enough drivel in Sonny's nonsensical questions, plus Dave's typo in the title to a message wherein Dave ironically howls over Donnie's duplicating a letter in a sequence. And then Racnor contributes his howling drivel over Donnie's or Jay's typo in a quote. End the howling drivel!

 
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AM
(no login)
72.54.195.146

Cause is obvious

January 11 2012, 2:23 PM 

Ken and Donnie have an obvious Cause, that being the cause of Christ. Dave your cause is something secular.

Does the church in which you serve as an Elder know the direction you will work to take them? Could you keep us posted on how many people leave in the name of unity?

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Cause is obvious

January 12 2012, 2:40 AM 

Thanks, AM.

Dave's cause is secular, indeed. It is also culture- and emotion-driven. In the secular world [well, "pagan world" may be more appropriate], musical instruments and dancing are partners and often inseparable. Even the Bible states that fact. History proves it as well.

Dave is disturbed that churches of Christ follow the apostolic/New Testament tradition that the saints of the Lord hymn together to let the word of Christ indwell and to teach and admonish one another. He finds it very difficult to understand that simple truth. I don't know why, do you?

If operating mechanical music [plus dancing -- which may be optional sad.gif ] in the assembly is truth found in God's Word, then, there should be NO FEAR on any elder's part to speak to and convince the congregation to go that route, correct?

I think that Dave may be keeping "that truth" to himself for fear that spreading "that truth" may cause division.

But we know. Instrumental music is CONTROVERSIAL, UNNECESSARY, and DIVISIVE. In the church of Christ, that is. And Dave is a member of that church.

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Will the circle be unbroken?

January 12 2012, 8:35 AM 

Instrumental music is divisive because we let it be controversial. Drinking coffee in a class and singing traditional versus contemporary songs and going to Winterfest and celebrating anniversaries and birthdays and 1500 other matters that or opinion. The Lordship of Jesus and Baptism are not opinion but doctrine. I know I know that a few of you put music under doctrine and so the circular argument will not be broken. sad.gif

Fred Whaley

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.246.114

Re: Will the circle be unbroken?

January 12 2012, 11:11 PM 

Yes, Fred, music is a doctrinal issue, because Jesus through Paul addressed it in the New Testament. Anything that Jesus addressed is a doctrinal issue. That shouldn't be too hard to understand. Jesus specified vocal music (singing), and we cannot go beyond that. Had Jesus said, "Singing and making melody with all kinds of music," then we would have been free to implement instrumental music. The liberals, however, deny that music is a doctrinal issue, because they are too bent on implementing whatever music pleases them. And yes, the fruity loop will roll ad infinitum as long as there are rebellious liberals who will not follow the New Testament.

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

I Still Wonder....

January 11 2012, 8:45 AM 

I wonder two things...
1) Why William Crump is hiding behind "B"?
1) Why William Crump is back when he said that he was leaving (we knew that he couldn't stay away)?

Hey, its trendy....the double numbering system.....I LIKE IT!!!

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Jay Guin Separates Salvation from Baptism

January 12 2012, 3:58 AM 

Dave,

I'm very disappointed in your rebuttal. I was looking for substance: didn't find it. I see that your posts are trendy as well -- no substance.

OK: the musical notation -- a b c d e d. What would be the best musical instrument to play -- a b c d e d?

Let's review the list, and this should give us the opportunity to re-emphasize the important points mentioned in Jay's church's website:

a) Jay Guin is one of the elders.
b) In "What We Believe," "Salvation" and "Baptism" are separate topics.
c) The congregation has organized Praise Teams--I'm sure they REHEARSE "worship."
d) "Wineskins" is one of "Other Helpful Resources."
e) "Grace Centered Magazine" is one of "Other Helpful Resources."
d) Here's the help I need: Does the church use IM in its assemblies?

There was the original ordered points: a,b,c,d. But I just had to insert the liberals' and the change agents' favorite magazines before "d":

d) "Wineskins" ....
e) "Grace Centered Magazine" ....

Press SUBMIT ... and OOPS!

Sorry to disappoint you, "keen" observerss! But I saw and knew about the musical notes before you did. I left it that way. happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif for your enjoyment. And see what happened? All that really alarmed Dave Fields and caused him to deviate from a civil doctrinal discussion.

___________________________

"... other issues over which we dont [sic] divide."

That is a copy-and-paste and/or keyboard and/or Notepad-vs-Word issue that affects the display or non-display of certain punctuation marks: (a) open and close single quotation mark; (b) open and close double quotation marks; (c) there may be others.

___________________________

Dave, leave "B" alone. He is responding to doctrinal issues while you're not.

___________________________

NOTE: Up to this point, of those of us with editing/approving rights, I'm the one who has approved posts unworthy of publishing. But here we go again. Posts of that nature beyond this point will be edited or rejected. So, save your time.

FYI: There were more viewers on 1/11/12 from those with non-U.S. than with U.S. IP addresses including: Ukraine, Russian Federation, France, U.K., Sweden, Netherlands, Philippines, Lithuania, etc.

 
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JimmyJoe
(no login)
68.53.99.127

The WEB

January 12 2012, 1:02 PM 

Donnie, Because this site has visitors from all over the world doesn't really prove relevancy. It just means users are surfing the web. I don't mean to be degrading as I am sure it is still relevant to the three or four permanent posters. I still visit just to see if anyone with opposing views has ever changed their mind. So far the answer would be a resounding NO. I guess that just proves the old adage that everyone has their right to be wrong.

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.138.247

That's what we say also.

January 12 2012, 2:14 PM 

All recorded Bible is that the use of INSTRUMENTS is the mark of those who HAVE FALLEN and cannot get up.

The Israelites rose up in musical idolatry and God sentenced them to return to Babylon.
Even Moses's intercession caused God to give them the law of Moses and the Levites commanded to execute you if you came near their Soothsaying with instruments, the SENTENCE was not redeemable and in time God would carry out the national death sentence. Moses said that they would be BLIND and DEAF until "another prophet like me comes" which was Jesus who REPUDIATED all of the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites named as preachers, singers and instrument players in Ezekiel 33."

The Direct Command from the wilderness onward was
To PREACH the Word of God (only)
By READING and discussing the Word.
Those who GO BEYOND HE SACRED PAGES are indicted with or without machines to prop up their silly self-speak which Jesus says marks them as sons of the Devil.

In Revelation 17 the REMOVAL of the speakers, singers and instrument players happens at the same time as the removal of the LAMPS--the seven spirit of Divine knowledge.

Not Repenting is the doom of the WORLD for whom Jesus refuses to even pray and the wise Sophists from whom GOD HIDES HIMSELF. The Sophists or rhetoricians, singers and instrument players. The musical idolatry is PROOF and the MARK that God is HIDING from these people. That is why we are not to even pray for these neo-Babylonians both left and right.

Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Psalms 143:7 Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit.

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Zechariah 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Many (most) are called (evangelized) but FEW (almost none) are Chosen: The instrumental churches have already LOST their ability to CALL and in the parable of the LOCUSTS (Muses, dirty adulteresses) have SEPARATED them and holding them in PUNISHMENT (Yes, music punishes but the NOT-REDEEMABLE think it is fun).

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Ukrainians and Russians Are Hungry for the Truth -- Let's Not Underestimate

January 12 2012, 9:11 PM 

Jimmy Joe,

Thanks for still visiting just to see....

I purposely did not post the stats, even though I continually watch the trend when I review the daily or weekly or monthly number of page views. At least, there is a "sitemeter" below. And the counter represents the number of visitors -- not the number of page views. Not many fora reveal counts nor have that many visitors.

I'm just wondering where you got your stats and the proof of relevancy. Nothing to worry about, JimmyJoe. I know that the church of Christ abides by the doctrine of Christ, and the doctrine of Christ is always relevant regardless of age -- 1st century, 19th century, 21st century. Even in this contemporary age, the truth does not change, and it is still the 1st century New Testament truth regardless of what the contemporary change agents say.

This is a serious question (since you might know): How close is the Madison congregation to: (1) assembling also on Saturday evenings and observing the Lord's Supper and playing musical devices or (2) adding a third assembly with "instrumental music" on Sundays? Or, has it abandoned the plan, if any?

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.246.114

Re: Ukrainians and Russians Are Hungry for the Truth -- Let's Not Underestimate

January 12 2012, 11:38 PM 

Why do some contemporary churches meet on Saturday to observe the Lord's Supper? Are they trying to follow the Jewish calendar, which holds that each new day begins at sundown, therefore the first day of the week would begin on Saturday evening? If so, they follow the Gregorian calendar for everything except the Lord's Supper, for which they revert to the Jewish calendar. That sounds as odd as those Christians who follow the New Testament for everything except instrumental music, which they "justify" by dipping into the Old Testament and citing Psalm 150 or similar passages. Such people practice selective theology. Just as man cannot serve two masters--God and mammon--man also cannot serve two Covenants--the Old and the New.

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

"Selective Theology"

January 13 2012, 1:48 PM 

This is the best explanation Fred has ever read. BBBBBBeautiful Mr. B. This is a simple explanation and there are no holes in the argument. Some people also continue to practice the 10 Commandments so does that make them erroneous? DON'T PICK AND CHOOSE 9 OF 10 BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE "SELECTIVE THEOLOGY" SIR.

Fred Whaley

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Non-use of Musical Instruments Has Nothing to Do with "Selective Theology"

January 13 2012, 3:10 PM 

Fred,

There's nothing selective about the use/misuse of DEAD (inanimate, LIFELESS) musical devices in the assembly of LIVING SAINTS. [This might work well with Fred's scheme: play DEAD musical objects with the DEAD Catholic SAINTS -- if Fred insists.]

The use of DEAD musical instruments when saints gather is NOT EVEN AN OPTION.

The law of Moses including the 10 Commandments was nailed to the cross, and we are now under the law of Christ -- the law of LOVE: (1) loving God and (2) loving man.

Here's the response to your lousy "selecting-nine" argument. When the Christian obeys the commandment to LOVE -- he does not worship other gods; he does not kill; he does not covet; etc.; etc.; etc.

Thanks to the new covenant, the new law of LOVE -- for without it, the "thou shalt not kill" or the "thou shalt not covet" is not covered. And one thing for sure, the new law of LOVE does not include: "Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy." Perhaps, Fred still wants to observe that.


Poor Fred, think up of some more fallacious arguments.

 
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B
(no login)
74.179.246.112

Re: "Selective Theology"

January 13 2012, 4:06 PM 

Actually, Fred, the basic principles laid down in the "Ten Commandments" are NOT unique to Judaism. Most societies on this planet (even those that arose before Moses and the ancient Israelites) have a set of moral principles that deal with worshipping a deity/deities on certain days, murder, lying, theft, adultery, profanity/foul language, honoring parents, etc. etc. A similar set of basic moral principles are also found in Christianity today, but they are NOT unique to Christianity either. Just because Christians worship one God on the first day of the week instead of the seventh day does NOT mean we practice selective theology by "discarding" one of the so-called "Jewish Ten Commandments." Christ nailed all the tenets of the Old Law to the cross, which included seventh-day worship (Col. 2:14). Basic moral principles still apply, however.

Therefore, Fred, when you and others "justify" instrumental music by dipping into the Old Testament to cite Psalm 150 and similar passages, you DO practice "selective theology." Why not just follow what is written in the New Testament and stop trying to find loopholes to suit your own worldly desires?

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.138.57

That's true about the commandments

January 14 2012, 5:07 PM 

The only spiritual covenant was made with Abraham through "God in Christ." The Law of Moses had no spiritual value. That is why Paul ignores the Law of Moses and the Laws of the Monarchy and speaks of Abraham. (Gal 3)

God gave Moses the ten commandments BEFORE Israel fell into idolatry.
Israel had "vowed" to obey The Book of The Covenant which spelled out those regulations while Israel was still patriarchal and which expanded the ten commandments. These commandments were pretty much universal althought often stated in a negative form.

After the fall at Mount Sinai God gave a SECOND LAW (deuteronomy) in addition too thee first covenant. This is called The Book of the Law which legislated the legalists. The "ten words" are RESTATED forthose living under LAW and were never restated as the preamble to the Covenant of Grace. The New Testament restates 9 of the 10 and ignors the mandatory REST day because Jesus became OUT rest: if you do hard bondage on the seventh day then you repudiate the REST Jesus(Joshua) gave which the first Joshua could not give. Seventh day WORSHIP is in fact about the vilest way you could reject the finished work of Jesus.

There were no MANDATORY sacrifices in The Book of the Covenant built on grace.

When Israel fell into musical idolatry the Tablets were broken and NEVER restated as they related to the Covenant of Grace.

God sentenced Israel to be led into Captivity and Death: when the elders fired God and demanded a king (senior preacher person) God "gave them kings in His anger" to carry out the penalty. The musicians (Levites) performed Soothsaying with instruments as part of Babylonianism. Believers can sing and twang without getting executed any time they wish--on their own like David.

All throughout the Old Testament Period the godly (Non Levites) attended the Church of Christ in the wilderness. This defined A school of the Word: the Campbells tried to restore A School of Christ. It was the Disciples/Christian churches who restored the old denominational structure the Campbells intended to replace.

In fact churches of Christ rememeber the REST day and keep it holy: that is why they do not do worship services meaning "hard bondage." The word Sabbath means REST and never a "worship service." IF people were forced to work 6 days DURING PLANTING and HARVEST then God commanded that they RESTED on the next day which was not related to the Jewish - Babylonian Astrology or worship of the starry host.

Many pagans--especially the sun worshipers actually PERFORMED RELIGIOUS services on the superstitious seventh day of the WEEK. The command to give people REST on the Sabbath day even defended WORK as "sending out ministers of God." Only the Babylon-Jerusalem cult held Sabbath services: Babylon was the source both of the seventh-DAY worship and the tithe.

Sure: remember the REST day and keep it holy by RESTING: No, Christians do not hold worship services on the REST day. The first day is the first day of WORK: those who have labored so hard to actually hold SABBATH DAY "WORSHIP" with music, preaching, collecting money are MARKED by Babylonianism just as the Jews lusted for and were abandoned to Babylonianism.

Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon) who used the Locust or Musical Teams and other SUN gods were worshipped on the SEVENTH day of the Week. Isn't that a MARK or something?

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Ukrainians and Russians Are Hungry for the Truth -- Let's Not Underestimate

January 13 2012, 6:10 PM 

Interesting: About the Russians

I'm wondering if it has to do with the above title. But today, a comparison between the U.S. and Russia is astounding in terms of page views. Considering that there is a much higher number of Christians in the U.S. than in Russia, it is only a 56%:44% ratio in terms of page views between the two countries.

Watch!!! The strength and dedication and love for truth among Christians in the Russian Federation.



 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Ukrainians and Russians Are Hungry for the Truth -- Let's Not Underestimate

January 14 2012, 3:43 PM 

It's still a considerable number of page views from the Russian Federation as of now (today).

I would venture to say that the churches of Christ in Russia (as well as in other countries) are not severely affected by the distorted, divisive teachings of the liberal/progressive movers/discorders in the church.

Hopefully, our brethren in other countries will retain their knowledge and understanding of the simplicity of the gospel of Christ -- as well as the straightforward principles heralded by our Restoration Movement forefathers such as: "Where the Scriptures speak, we speak; where the Scriptures are silent, we are silent."

"This movement had its beginning when preachers of various denominations and in different parts of the U.S.A. recognised this sinful division existing among those who claimed to follow Christ and sought to unite all professed believers by renouncing denominational creeds and pleading for the New Testament as the only guide of faith and practice."

Now, we have the Change Agents in the brotherhood, in our midst, who are making a 180-degree turn away from the RM principles and from the New Testament guide, and back into denominationalism. What good is that for the New Testament church that Christ established?

There may come a time when churches of Christ abroad will be reminding us and teaching us what they have/had learned from the New Testament.

Greetings to congregations of the church of Christ in Barnaul, Biysk, Moscow, Perm, Rostov, St. Petersburg, and other cities!!!

 
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(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Ukrainians and Russians Are Hungry for the Truth -- Let's Not Underestimate

January 16 2012, 1:55 PM 

Here's some unusual news. I've been monitoring page views quite a bit lately, since I noticed a few days ago the unusually high number of page viewers from the Russian Federation.

As of today at the time of this posting (and the time difference may have some bearing), the number of page views is 53%-to-47% in favor of Russia over the U.S. Perhaps, the brethren in the Russian churches are so bonded together that they keep one another informed. As the hymn says, "Blest be the tie that binds our hearts in Christian love."

I'm reminded of a very popular 1966 American comedy film I haven't even seen: "The Russians Are Coming, the Russians Are Coming." I'm intrigued by such an unusual title. I'll explain it below:

One will notice on the index page a thread I initiated a while back titled:


A NEW BIG PICTURE: THE CHANGE AGENTS ARE COMING! THE CHANGE AGENTS ARE COMING!


This time, however, it is a clear warning to congregations of the church of Christ Jesus to not welcome those agents of change who seek to infiltrate, subvert, divide, conquer and acquire once-peaceful congregations.

 
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(no login)
50.53.18.172

First time viewer

April 30 2014, 1:24 PM 

This is my first time ever coming across this site. I am a member of a non-institutional, non-instrumental, very conservative church of Christ and have been for almost 9 years. As far as credentials go, I've been a preacher-in-training with 2 different congregations' programs, and I still preach frequently. That being said, I am studying these (instrumental music and other) topics with new eyes for the purpose of better serving God. I found Jay Guin's blog before I found this forum, so I'm probably coming from a slightly different perspective than the other participants in this discussion. I understand the purpose of this discussion, and it's for the benefit of this discussion and the edification of the participants that I'm saying what I'm about to say.

1) I've read plenty of Jay Guin's articles on his blog, oneinjesus.info. If I were you, I'd read some as well before engaging in attacking him or even his arguments. This is true for absolutely any individual who teaches something different than what you do. If you read his articles (and probably others with whom you disagree), you'll find that they aren't all motivated by a desire to destroy the church, steal souls, and gain through sordid means. Further, you may find a much better defence on his site of his position than a defence of his position you'll find on a forum like this.

2) Seeing how participants treat one another on this site is extremely discouraging. I understand (and appreciate) the desire to defend the truth and maintain the purity of the church, but where does sarcasm fit into that? Where does attacking character, motives, and grammar/punctuation fit into that? I'd be careful of how you respond in settings like these, because someone, potentially someone looking for truth and relief who is dying in their sin, can come and see the opposite of "the servant of the Lord... correcting his opponents with gentleness (2 Tim 2:24-25)."

Grace and peace,
Arthur

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
172.243.203.84

Re: First time viewer

April 30 2014, 2:25 PM 

We let attackers attack: the manly thing to do. Jay Guin will not let you post even a single verse if it does not support his agenda.

There are only two attack agents who refute eveything posted by the moderators. You will notice the two going at me in the provocative post about FABLES. If you quote any of the historic documents which parallel the Bible they call you Nazis etc. You will notice that the two respondents wont respond to the scholarly quotes defining fables, myths: one, an elder, does not know that he defends "Jewish fables."

Jay is a Doctor of the Law and he writes very good briefs. Unfortunately, he doesn't use scripture in context and just makes raw assertions. The two moderators post text in context, the ways words are used in the Greek, Latin and Hebrew literature and almost always post recorded literature and views of the historic scholars to show how the words are used. For instance, the word PSALLO upon which the instrumentalists intending and actually "infiltrating" your School of the Word into "a theater for holy entertainment." However, Psallo means pluck something with your fingers but never with a plectrum or guitar pick. It has absolutely no musical content. Jay Guin has supported many who claim that psallo DEMANDS instruments.

You are welcomed to post any of Jay's views but expect that we will examine the context which is considered negative.

Jay opposes any and all views held by the historic churches of Christ.

You were right all along: if you build an institution then Satan will come and take it away from you.


 
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(no login)
108.28.131.243

Re: First Time Viewer

May 2 2014, 2:51 AM 



Arthur: Most who read this site are pretty familiar with Jay Guinn and his like. Most of us do not disagree with everything he and other "progressives" say. But there is much to disagree about, and the fact is, as has been pointed out on this site in many places, they are stealing congregations. There are already Baptist Churches and Christian Churches and Community Churches. If you follow Jay Guinn's link to Rubel Shelly, for instance, you will find that he is now more or less aligned with the Independent Christian Churches. Shelly stole a school which was founded and nurtured by some rather conservative brethren. I cannot fathom how one associated with "conservative" churches of Christ can fit in Jay Guinn.
We also discover that some throw about words intended to be positive or negative with no real meaning behind them. What does Guinn mean by "progressive", anyway. And "Nazi" and "Fascist" are mere school yard taunts with about the same sophistication.
So there are always areas of disagreement or areas of peculiar interpretation. I for instance, do not conclude that Paul was saying that we cannot choose, as a congregation, to decide where to do good with the funds we collect or that we cannot meet in fellowship that involves food, but I have a reasonable respect for those who have come to that conclusion.
The real crux of the matter is how much pagan overlay are we going to permit in order to draw people to the church. Now there is a word that can be debated: church. Apparently, the term we would translate from Greek to English as "assembly" really does not convey the formality, the power if you wish, of the term in Greek. So I conclude that the word "church" is appropriate to use because it conveys more a meaning of special assembly, although I suspect that it has indeed descended from Circe (Kirke).
As for the tenor of the comments on this site, the bear baiting and the dogs that are let loose, it is what they do, sometimes at a rather high literary level. But you can learn here.

 
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Bill
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Re: First Time Viewer

May 2 2014, 7:36 AM 

It's theoretically possible to "learn" here, if you can wade through the mythology, fairy tales, fables, and the endless references to musikators and the starry host. Also, that bit about nazis and fascists has a nice ring to it. happy.gif

 
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Bill
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74.179.210.49

Perfection in All things

April 30 2014, 2:38 PM 

As Jesus says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt. 5:48 KJV). This means striving for perfetion in ALL things, which includes your spiritual life, your home life, your job--and yes, even your English spelling and grammar. happy.gif

As far as all the sarcasm and personal attacks among posters on this site, it's just natural that when people get together to talk "religion," not everyone is gonna agree with all the different perceptions and interpretatons of the Bible. Some participants are more tolerant, whereas those whom I call "spiritual nazis" are bent on hammering their beliefs into their opponents' heads, come what may. If those opponents do not knuckle under and conform, the spiritual nazis condemn them as blasphemers and anti-Christs. I guess you could say that's just the nature of the "beast." happy.gif

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
172.243.203.84

Re: Perfection in All things

April 30 2014, 2:44 PM 

See what I mean?

 
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Bill
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Re: Perfection in All things

April 30 2014, 4:19 PM 

So, Ken, you're saying that you're very familiar with those spiritual nazis who call their opponents blasphemers and anti-Christs?

 
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(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
172.243.203.84

Re: Perfection in All things

April 30 2014, 4:41 PM 

Yes, this is a good example;

I quoted John to say that the NAME of the another comforter is Jesus Christ the righteous in His Holy (wholly) Spirit State. Therefore the Spirit OF God is not another people. There goes your trinity as polytheism.

I quoted John who said that if you deny that:

1. There is one God [Theos] the Father
2. And Jesus as the one Lord [Kurios] as the SON of the FATHER. And the ONE GOD THE FATHER made Jesus of Nazareth TO BE Lord and Christ.
3. You are an antichrist.

This is the pattern: I quote the Biblical Text and you say THEREFORE you believe this and this and this.



 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Jay Guin List of Reviews (partial)

October 8 2014, 11:57 AM 


 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
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Jay Guin and friends DANCING IN WORSHIP: their destiny

October 11 2014, 10:28 PM 

In Isaiah 3 Christ warned that women and BOYS would rule over you: boys are the effeminate and perverted. They PIPED hoping that Jesus would lament and dance the Dionysus (Apollon) dance being initiated into the gay priesthood: historians noted that the Jews hoped that Dionysus would be their Messiah.

Boys: Effemino II.Trop., to make womanish, effeminate, to enervate, A.Womanish, effeminate,
Histrio, stage-player, actor, mimus, boaster, used with
-Scaena, 1. Of a place like a scene of a theatre, school of rhetoric, display of eloquence.

Outlawed in Romans 15

B. In mal. part., that submits to unnatural lust: pathicus, Cinaedos: a sodomite, catamite, one who dances publicly

Matt. 11:8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold,
they that wear soft [Catamites] clothing are in kings’ houses.
Matt. 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation?
It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Matt. 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and YE HAVE NOT DANCED;
we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.


The Stark-Warlick Debate was one of the earliest definition of Worship by the Christian Churches defining those who would not participate with them as SONS OF PERDITION. Of course it is a lie: Churches of Christ were never part of the Dancing Disciples--Christian Churches:

Stark In the Stark Warlick Debate, thought of worship as the emotion of the soul and that it might "produce singing, shouting, praising, leaping, dancing, hand clapping, or thanksgiving and such should not be suppressed by man made rules."

DAVID YOUNG handled by the ADCOX group [KAIROS demon son of Zeus: STRIKES at just the right time] wants to restore the cane ridge witchcraft and adds HUGGING AND KISSING. Not me buster.

http://www.piney.com/Stark.Warlick.Debate.God.Authorizes.Instruments.Music.html

Jay Guin etal still promote the Disciples of Christ movement: the Christian churches became a SECTARIAN SPLIT from the Disciples. It is pretty dishonest that once-Christian colleges are BANDED with the NACC REprograming young preachers to fall into musical idolatry. Kairos Tim is right. The Synagogue of Christ was PROMISED a time like this and the elect will be tempted to blood: how more evil than to lie, cheat and steal the church house and families of a congregation and tell the LAITY to "get over it or get out." They WOULD and maybe WILL kill you in the name of UNITY.

Following the pattern of Jeff Walling, Jay Guin beloved by those who cannot read the Biblical text proven by their songs and sermons writes ENCOURAGES all of his SECT to DANCE while someone PIPES

http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Dancing.in.Worship.html

If Jeff Walling's Dancing "teaching YOUR youth to leave YOUR movement and transistion to the NACC at Winterfest." If this doesn't leave you a quart low on testesterone you have a problem even Plato noted of religious performers.

http://www.piney.com/worship1.html

JAY GUIN:
You see, CENI is not only a rationalization for doing what we want, it’s also a mechanism for protecting us from the Spirit’s annoying habit of leading where the members aren’t ready to go. Anyone can cobble together a CENI-based argument against anything.

That's lying to God and about God.

That's proof that only a tiny few of men seeing godlines as a means of financial gain and therefore they must bundle closely.

http://www.piney.com/Commands.Examples.and.Necessary.Inferences.html

JAY GUIN:
Maybe we should move the pews further apart so we have room to prostrate ourselves before God. Maybe we should even leave a dance floor, to properly celebrate the return of God to his people and the coming of the Kingdom and the good news of the Kingdom of heaven.

That's where the CONSUMING FIRES BREAK OUT as promoted by the ZOE GROUP and ACU professors and expert visitors.
Jay Quin and ALL who promote the Abandoned-to-Babylon David's Naked dance can never grasp that all WORSHIP SERVICES replaced by the SCHOOL of the prophets and apostles ONLY gave the right to BUY and SELL to whose willing to expose their "wannabe" person.

[linked image]


Worship team robes or clergy garb worn by the Pope and daughter churches (Kairos Planted). The always-pagan trinities consist of father, mother (spirit) and infant son: Osiris, Isis and Horus worshipped under the symbol of the golden calf at mount sinai for which there was no redemption: next step back to Babylon as the now "christian" wing of ISIS mother goddes worshipped by th emasculated. The "mother godesses" were strangly male: Osiris lost his penis and Isis had to give birth all by herself with the DEAD "father figure" who is deliberately EMASCULATED by trinitarians worshiping Mary the mother of gods and beasts.

That is why God gave ALL of the authority vested in the always-pagan trinities to Jesus Christ. When you see the Son you see the Father so that Scripture goes to extremes to prevent any reading disciple from falling back into pagan polytheism enjoyed at Jerusalem after God abandoned them to worship the starry HOSTS.

[linked image]

[linked image]


JAY GUIN ETALBut only a few. Most of those present are, for reasons they don’t understand, trapped in a legalistic, culturally and emotionally stunted form of expression. They feel its wrongness in their cores, but don’t know how to escape. In fact, they worry that it might somehow be wrong to give into these Spirit-prompted impulses.

In other words, how can you encourage someone else (the voice is active)? One approach is to recognize that in your congregation there is a new spirit/Spirit of worship emerging. Members are slowly becoming more expressive. They are feeling free to feel the words, to truly mean the lyrics.


Abaddon or Apollyon EMERGES from the pits of hell as the Musical Worship Spirit of the EMERGING locusts who are the LOCUSTS. Jesus told some of us that God HIDES from the sophists: speakers for hire, singers, instrument players and grinders or prostitutes selling or displaying various body parts.

Spiritus Spirit in both Hebrew and Greek speaks of a WIND sometimes a violent blast, breathing or gentle blowing of air, a breath, breeze, 2.The breath of a god, inspiration:

When PERSONIFIED only of:

II.B. The "spritit" of Phoebus [Abaddon, Apollyon] or Carmenae (the Muses), spirit of a loud tone, a tempest, of the tympana horrificis, runinis exciting terror of loud thundering speech, thundererer, god of thunder, Saturn as the sickle bearer. KAIROS is Saturn: time to THRUST IN THE SICKLE AND REAP THE "FRUITS."

The SPIRIT in Ephesians 5 is the WORD of Christ (regulative principle) in Colossiand 3.

Hebrews 12 warned of the FINAL shaking which includings singing, clapping and DANCING to remove those things which CANNOT be induced to shake and clap that unless they honor god with reverence and godly fear that GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE

FIRE and INSTRUMENTS are always connected as the CAUSE but usually the MARK that Jesus has been there and removed the craftsmen (parasites), singers and instrument players along with the LAMPS (Isaiah 11 seven spirits OF Divine knowledg) and the SORCERERS along with liars and "dogs" will be CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE Just as the Spirit OF Christ issued the Prophetic Type in Isaiah 33 where the SOUNDS of musical instruments (as in Revelation 14) are those of God driving His enemies into HELL.

http://www.piney.com/Isa30LXX.html

JAY GUIN ETAL.
The church leaders are not going to shut down a little clapping or hands-raising, but neither are they going to push these new postures either. “Let the Spirit lead where it wills” would be a common attitude for a transitional church such as this one.

The Name of the Holy Spirit COMFORTER is Jesus Christ the Righteous: He said that HIS WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE. Therefore, says Christ in Isaiah 8 if they do not SPEAK the Word of God it is because THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.

John says that if you deny the ONE GOD THE FATHER and ONE SON needing no third person for a God they claim is DISABLED are called ANTICHRISTS

In Ephesians 4 any APT elder will by definition and DIRECT COMMAND cast out the cunning craftsmen or SOPHISTS meaning "rhetorid for hire, singers or instrument playrs" in a religious place. God hides from them and ANY apt elder will eject them says Paul because THEY ARE LYING IN WAIT TO DECEIVE.

The church or ekklesia consists of any saved person able to teach others. When THEY assemble themselves--never more than once a week--it is called a SYNAGOGUE.

The Synagogue was to PROTECT the godly from the blowing winds and hail going on in the always-pagan WORSHIP CENTERS with a one-piece pattern defined over and over: Rest, Read and Rehearse the Word of God.

Of those churches where everyone wanted to sing their own stuf Paul said that your SYNAGOGUES do more harm than good. That's why this writer never intends to let the THIEVES steal in and rob my "gift to the lord" when their agenda is to DIVERT God's "money"into a theater for holy entertainment.

The ONLY meaning of a legalists in the Greek world were those God HIDES from: speakers for hire, singers, instrument players, actors, dancers and "companions" in ALL religionism. They must be "destined," learn, practice, rehearse full time, perform publically and be JUDGED by very STRICT nomos or Laws. These were hypocritic or parasitic professions and only the lowest classes performed in public.

The SPIRIT in Ephesians 5 is the WORD of Christ (regulative principle) in Colossiand 3.

Hebrews 12 warned of the FINAL shaking which includings singing, clapping and DANCING to remove those things which CANNOT be induced to shake and clap that unless they honor god with reverence and godly fear that GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE

FIRE and INSTRUMENTS are always connected as the CAUSE but usually the MARK that Jesus has been there and removed the craftsmen (parasites), singers and instrument players along with the LAMPS (Isaiah 11 seven spirits OF Divine knowledg) and the SORCERERS along with liars and "dogs" will be CAST ALIVE INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE Just as the Spirit OF Christ issued the Prophetic Type in Isaiah 33 where the SOUNDS of musical instruments (as in Revelation 14) are those of God driving His enemies into HELL.

http://www.piney.com/Isa30LXX.html

JAY GUIN ETAL.
The church leaders are not going to shut down a little clapping or hands-raising, but neither are they going to push these new postures either. “Let the Spirit lead where it wills” would be a common attitude for a transitional church such as this one.

The Name of the Holy Spirit COMFORTER is Jesus Christ the Righteous: He said that HIS WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE. Therefore, says Christ in Isaiah 8 if they do not SPEAK the Word of God it is because THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM.

John says that if you deny the ONE GOD THE FATHER and ONE SON needing no third person for a God they claim is DISABLED are called ANTICHRISTS

In Ephesians 4 any APT elder will by definition and DIRECT COMMAND cast out the cunning craftsmen or SOPHISTS meaning "rhetorid for hire, singers or instrument playrs" in a religious place. God hides from them and ANY apt elder will eject them says Paul because THEY ARE LYING IN WAIT TO DECEIVE.

The church or ekklesia consists of any saved person able to teach others. When THEY assemble themselves--never more than once a week--it is called a SYNAGOGUE.

The Synagogue was to PROTECT the godly from the blowing winds and hail going on in the always-pagan WORSHIP CENTERS with a one-piece pattern defined over and over: Rest, Read and Rehearse the Word of God.

Of those churches where everyone wanted to sing their own stuf Paul said that your SYNAGOGUES do more harm than good. That's why this writer never intends to let the THIEVES steal in and rob my "gift to the lord" when their agenda is to DIVERT God's "money"into a theater for holy entertainment.





 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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