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(no login)

Oh? Indeed!!!

November 15 2010, 11:30 AM 

AM, you gave that critical response without telling us 'the rest of the story.'
The poor response by you is BECAUSE you failed in the details.
If you are going to put down another individual, you certainly should include ALL of the story.
You did not.....unacceptable.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Oh? Indeed!!!

November 15 2010, 12:33 PM 

AM may be withholding the details because he might feel that Dave would not like them. In other words, the truth about that encounter just might be more than Dave would want to read. Eh?

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(no login)

Re: Oh? Indeed!!!

November 15 2010, 9:29 PM 

You are correct. Yet there are some other words from others which would show that Rick is not a person that unifies and actually hurts others. Dave would have to be a close friend of Rick to know otherwise. I wonder if Dave has ever met Rick?

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greta morrison
(no login)

Testing this login and a few general questions

June 11 2011, 2:12 PM 

Thanks to Donnie for helping me post here because I kept trying to officially login and it never worked ! OK, general questions about this forum: when people site references to support what they have personally viewed happen in the CoC or papers, articles, lectureships, etc...can you post a link so I could read the primary source. I'm just asking this because I could use that primary source to share with others. I discovered this site after I started checking out efforts to lead Oklahoma Christian University into an Emergent University as well as individual CoC's. Although you're dealing with a different region, these links help me organize the primary sources, I have already collected. Thanks so much!

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(no login)

Re: The Future of the Progressive Churches of Christ

November 15 2010, 1:12 PM 

There is plenty to discuss regarding this thread: "The Future of the Progressive Churches of Christ."

So, the liberals have created a new division in the church and referring to it as the "Progressive Church of Christ."

Another of Jay Guin's plea is:
"Meanwhile, in my home town, community churches that teach a non-denominational Christianity that places scripture above tradition and that study the Bible rather than their denominational history are growing. They stole our playbook!"
Really? Mr. Guin, that was not your playbook. Rather, it was the Saddleback Community Church's Rick Warren's playbook -- the culture-driven SCHEME for "church growth."

Please ... no more of that other stuff than seriously discussing important issues.


P.S.: I'm sorry. I was wrong. I forgot something really important -- not realizing what Mr. Guin meant by: "They stole our playbook!"

Notice the word "OUR" in "our playbook."

Jay Guin is a disciple of Rick Warren with his Community Church Growth SCHEME. Now, Jay Guin has his own disciples. Who might they be?

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Nov 15, 2010 3:54 PM

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: The Future of the Progressive Churches of Christ

November 15 2010, 2:29 PM 

It sounds to me as if those who embrace a "non-traditional", progressive Church of Christ are those who in effect advocate going away from the "traditions" of the New Testament. To follow the New Testament as written is a 2,000-year-old "tradition" in the mainstream Church of Christ. By "tradition," I don't mean two songs, a prayer, another song, the Lord's Supper, another song, the sermon, invitation hymn, acknowledgment of responses, collection, announcements, closing prayer--in that order (or something like it). Today, being "progressive" is NOT the same as being 100% committed to following the New Testament. Being "progressive" means, "Let's CHANGE things around, so we won't appear to be old stuffy traditionalists." Never mind changing the order of worship or the time of worship. That's not what the "progresive" change agents have in mind. To CHANGE (be progressive) means to reconsider/rewrite what the New Testament says so that it will be acceptable to 21st-century culture. And speaking of "traditions":

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" (2 Thess. 2:15 KJV).

The "progressives" want to downplay those traditions.

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(no login)

The REAL 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Not William's version

November 15 2010, 4:07 PM 

john Gill's Commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:15
And hold the traditions which ye have been taught:
meaning the truths of the Gospel, which may be called traditions, because they are delivered from one to another; the Gospel was first delivered by God the Father to Jesus Christ, as Mediator, and by him to his apostles, and by them to the churches of Christ;

Matthew Henry's Commentary on the same
The Thessalonians are exhorted to steadfastness in their Christian profession, to hold fast the traditions which they had been taught, or the doctrine of the gospel, which had been delivered by the apostle, by word or epistle. As yet the canon of scripture was not complete, and therefore some things were delivered by the apostles in their preaching, under the guidance of the infallible Spirit, which Christians were bound to observe as coming from God;

The People's New Testament
Hold the traditions. Instructions

NOW.....William is trying to tell us that the tradition of a capella, four part harmony is Biblical doctrine??? Doesn't surprise me that he would say is just not true.

These man made traditions are not unScriptural, HOWEVER they are still of MEN. As long as these traditions help us TO SING, then it is good. Just as instrumental music AID in singing....they can also be good. The problem is, and where William Crump would have you believe, is that a capella is right where instrumental music is wrong. For a man to say that would be false. That is not grounded in the Scripture, and THIS is where a tradition can be unholy. How about those churches who believe that a capella without harmony is the tradition that is faithful to older times? They want to hold their tradition to be true where a capella is false.
Yes indeed, you DO see what I am talking about.
The worst part of all of this is where a man will abuse Scripture, as William Crump did with 2 Thessalonians 2:15 did to uphold his tradtion......NOT Biblical Doctrine.

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(no login)

Re: The REAL 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Not William's version

November 18 2010, 12:36 PM 


In your quote from Henry's commentary, what do you think he meant by: "... As yet the canon of scripture was not complete"? Taking into account sequential events and the dates associated with these events, what is "the canon of Scripture" and when was it concluded or completed? Do you consider the Book of Revelation as the last canonized NT book? Do you consider teachings and practices of the early (1st, 2nd, 3rd thru 6th) centuries, although not included in the canonized books and although man-made, as church tranditions that are to be followed and practiced by Christians even today?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Speak is the OPPOSITE of play: learned that in a 1 room school house.

November 18 2010, 1:23 PM 

Jesus FIRED the doctors of the Law because they TAKE AWAY THE KEY to knowledge: that's their predestinated job. None of the scholars who prepared them know how to read the text either: if you corrupt the word or "sell learning at retail" God will make you look silly.

The active verb in the"not instrumental music passages" is.

G2980 lale lal-eh'-o A prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, that is, utter words:preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. Compare G3004 .

Liddell/Scott proves that these guys CANNOT assist God in Jesus Christ. Woe.

Laleo A. talk, chat, prattle,generally talk, speak,

OPPOSITE poiesis FABRICATION A. , creation, production, opp. praxis
(action, h tn meln p. Id.Grg.449d; mimsis
2. of Poetry, h tn dithurambn p., ts tragdias, tn epn,
Melos B. esp. musical member, phrase: hence, song, strain, of lyric poetry,

2. music to which a song is set, tune, Arist.Po.1450a14; opp. rhuthmos, metron, Pl.Grg. 502c; opp. rhuthmos, rhma, Id.Lg.656c; Krtikon, Karikon, Inikon m.,
3. melody of an instrument, phormigx (Abaddon's harp) d' au phtheggoith' hieron (religious shrine) m. de kai aulos

II. representation by means of art, Pl.Sph.265b, R.598b, al.; esp. of dramatic poetry, Arist.Po.1447a22, al.

Jesus called them all hypocrites: that is the Greek definitionn of a hypocrite.

Jesus will not pray for the WORLD and God hides Himself from the wise meaning SOPHISTS speakers, singers, instrument players.

Sowing discord is a terminal offense and John said that sorcerers (speakers, singers, instrument players Rev 18) are headed for the Lake of Fire.

These peoplel will hurt you real bad.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Continuing wineskins

November 18 2010, 5:18 PM 

Jesus said that worship should be IN Spirit which is a PLACE as opposed to IN a house built by human hands. The UNIQUE worship or giving heed word means to GIVE HEED to the Word of God.

In Philippians 3 Paul said that they worshipped IN THE SPIRIT as opposed to IN THE FLESH. That was because the DOGS or Cynics (Catamites) would be howling their "praise songs."

It is beyond human possiblity to GIVE HEED to the Words of Christ and the words of a preacher who is not a scholar however many degrees he has received from people who do not know their craft as say a Phd in Engineering who gets hurt for lying about his documents.

None of the Bible is METRICAL and the Bible is that which is written for our LEARNING. Thereefore, to sing wimpy-burger praise song in a style of the theater INTENDS to violate all of the direct commands. You will never find disciples flockikng to a theater.

Thayers G2980 Laleo

This is specificially defined as the word by which God speaks to mankind.
1) to utter a voice or emit a sound
2) to speak
a) to use the tongue or the faculty of speech
b) to utter articulate sounds
3) to talk
4) to utter, tell
5) to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts
a) to speak

Thayer G3004 Lego

1) to say, to speak
a) affirm over, maintain
b) to teach
c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct
d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say
e) to call by name, to call, name
f) to speak out, speak of, mention

If you MAKE MUSIC when Jesus is speaking when the elders (only) teach that which has been taught then you are mocking Jesus.

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David Gustafson
(Login DavidGustafson)

traditions from God

March 2 2011, 4:03 PM 

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" (2 Thess. 2:15 KJV).

Dr. Bill Crump,

It is talking about the traditions from God. It is not talking about the traditions from the legalistic patternistic modern day pharisee's in the Church of Christ denomination.


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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: traditions from God

March 3 2011, 1:16 AM 


There's no disagreement there. Yes, it is about the traditions if Christ and the apostles.

According to that premise, the use of musical objects and devices in the assembly of the NT saints is not, has not been, will never be an apostolic tradition.

Rather, it is a tradition of man, the pope, of the Roman Catholic Church. It has also been propagated by many Protestant denominations.

Please be careful in labeling the apostles as "the legalistic, patternistic Pharisees."

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The "Other" Dave
(no login)


June 12 2011, 10:55 AM 

Four part harmony is a man-made tradition, just as much as instrumental music is.

The part that the legalists will not admit to is that neither tradition is wrong, but just DIFFERENT PREFERENCES on how to worship God and Jesus.

The legalists abuse Scripture to say that instrumental music is not authorized, where four part harmony is authorized.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

An Ignorant Comparison

June 12 2011, 6:59 PM 


Let me guess something about your thinking. How long will it take for Dave Fields to ever comprehend the difference between: (1) singing alto and (2) playing the piano? No, I shouldn't have to guess. The answer is clearly "NEVER." [At least until Dave follows the Scripture and learns the truth.]

Here's another noteworthy observation: Dave's congregation in SC does not use instrumental music in the assembly, and some women probably sing alto instead of soprano. But Dave advocates his love for the piano or the trumpet -- which is opposed by his own congregation. It follows, then, that Dave opposes the teaching in his congregation. Either Dave is wrong or his congregation is wrong. Which or who is wrong?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Dave's Man-Made Preferences vs. God's Specifications

June 13 2011, 2:46 AM 


Comparing apples and oranges is nonsensical -- Dave's usual but failing attempt at justifying Dave's (a man's) decision to pervert, twist, change God's truth:
  1. Comparing a PA system and musical instruments is dumb.

  2. Comparing a four-part harmony and instrumental music is stupid.

  3. Dave's definition of a legalist is one who follows Christ and His apostles' teaching. That is wrong. Instead, one who follows Christ and teachings found in Scripture is the disciple of Christ -- not a legalist.

  4. Dave does not comprehend abuse of Scripture when and while he has clearly demonstrated or exemplified such.

  5. Dave does not comprehend but refuses to learn the history of musical idolatry before Christianity began; he has not yet learned the history of instrumental music in the Christian era.

  6. Dave does not understand that using instrumental music in the assembly is THE man-made tradition.

  7. Dave is afraid to accept the truth that instrumental music did not participate in the early (1st century) Christians' gatherings. Now -- that is apostolic. Not a man-made tradition.

  8. Dave to-date has not found in Scripture a single indication of authorization or instruction or directive from God to worship Him with man-made musical objects which are inanimate and lifeless and idolatrous.

  9. Dave will never come to an understanding that "teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs" (Col. 3:16) can NEVER be accomplished by mechanical objects of music. Perhaps, Dave will design or invent musical objects that can "teach and admonish" Christians and "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly."

  10. Dave is unnecessarily and erroneously going against the grain (the 40,000-congregation strong, worldwide church of Christ Jesus does not indulge in instrumental-music-induced worship of the heavenly Father).

  11. Instead, Dave is riskily and dangerously going with the flow -- "the winds of change."

Dave, if you're interested in civilly rebutting any of the above and without your unnecessary self-righteous expletives (which will be deleted, anyway), refer to the item no.

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(no login)


June 19 2011, 9:55 PM 

I have tried with you no avail. You don't care to have civil discussions and you could care less about the Truth.
Call my interpretations dumb and stupid, but you are the one in trouble of hell fire because of your continued careless and sinful approach to going after the church of our Lord Jesus Christ. What is really 'stupid' Donnie is ridiculing the very congregation that you attend. You didn't like decision(s) by the elders there at Madison, so what you do? You bring it here to be viewed by the ungodly, by those who have nothing to do with this whatsoever.
Edit THIS....
1 Corinthians 6
1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lords people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to courtand this in front of unbelievers!

7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters.


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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Not Edited: Your False Assumptions Need Rebuttal

June 19 2011, 10:53 PM 


Short and simple: Direct your blame and accusation towards the Change Agents. They're the ones perverting the truth, subverting and causing division in the church of our Lord. The Madison congregation was one of the victims of this subversion, and it's still suffering from the ill-effects of being misled and blindly going "with the winds of change."

Marking those (the CHANGE AGENTS) WHO cause DIVISIONS (Romans 16:17) is NOT a sinful approach -- it is TAUGHT in Scripture.

I know that you "put your money where your mouth is." It's the wrong cause. Instead, support the church of our Lord ... rather than defend the cause of culture-driven SCHEMES.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)


June 19 2011, 11:19 PM 

Dave talks about "meaningful dialogue," yet he apparently has no desire to engage in that. Instead, all his posts end up expressing the same general sentiment, disguised in different ways in worthless attempts to be original: "You are cursed! You are a sinner! Repent! Repent!" Then Dave acts surprised that his worthless posts have had no effect. Wake up and smell the coffee, son!

The winking face is bored with Dave's perseverations. Everyone else should be as well. Yawn! ZZZZZZ! wink.gif

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(no login)

Time to Do a Little Sidestep Dance

June 19 2011, 11:13 PM 

Answer the question Donnie.....Are you sinning against the Scriptures by bringing your grievance in front of the ungodly?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Dave doesn't even know what's happening in the church WORLDWIDE

June 20 2011, 12:33 AM 


You don't even comprehend the extent of the damage the change agents have done to the church. How would you even expect "the ungodly" to comprehend what's going on?

Marking those who cause division is not a grievance. Otherwise, you're considering the passage (Rom. 16:17) as expressing a grievance. Therefore, marking the dividers of the church is not sinful. Not following the directive from Scripture to "mark them" is sinful.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

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