Place your banner ad here.          See all banner ads

|| ConcernedMembers.com || About || Links Library || Help Warn Others ||
|| Madison Church of Christ || Richland Hills Church of Christ || Hillcrest Church of Christ || More Churches || Sunday School in Exile ||

Where is my NewThisWeek Email subscription?Click Here

Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.35

TRUE.

December 12 2010, 11:32 PM 

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Everything CONCERNING Jesus was fulfilled and then the LAW ceased. The law was added because of the transgression of MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai. God turned them over to worship the starry host. So everything under the king, kingdom, temple and animal slaughter was NOT commanded by God but imposed when He abandoned them to Babylonianism because they had been sentenced to go "beyond Babylon" because of musical idolatry.

The commanded ACT is to SPEAK
The commanded RESOURCE is THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN
The purpose was to TEACH that which is written (none of your own words Isaiah 58)
You can teach "how to dismantle an atomic bomb" while a singy-clappy praise team sings, claps, playes and gyrates also. But that would show terminal contempt for the teacher, wouldn't it? So, Why treat God in Christ worse than the garbage collector telling you how to prepare your garbage? God ahead! Make God's day.

All of the singing (ode) words EXCLUDES instruments.
So, I hope that you SING, then pause, THEN play your instruments: EACH one of you.

Melody is parallel to Grace (Colossians 3:16) and the PLACE is IN the heart or spirit.

Psallo is always translated SING in the Old Testament.
Psallo means pluck with your FINGERS and never with a PLECTRUM.
No guitar picks, flutes, drums, keyboards.

All of the cases where Psallo means Plucking some stringed instrument points to older males trying to seduce a younger male.

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Instrumental Music Is THE Man-Made Tradition

December 13 2010, 12:16 AM 

Dave,

The Scripture clearly identifies or distinguishes two types of traditions. Either:


  • It is an APOSTOLIC TRADITION "received of us" (apostles). "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us" (II Thess. 3:6). "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" (II Thess. 2:15).

    -------------------------- or --------------------------

  • It is a MAN-MADE TRADITION. "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ" (Col. 2:8).

As far as I know, the word "tradition" is not even mentioned in the Old Testament (at least in the KJV). But that's OK if instrumental music was not considered a tradition. It was used by the heathens in their idolatrous worship of their gods. It was also used by musicians (of course) like David, king of Israel, even though there was no directive from God.

In the "Christian" era, the Roman Catholic Church first introduced the use of musical instruments centuries after the church of Christ was established. We know about the Roman Catholic Church and the papacy and their countless man-made traditions.

There is no record of the church of the first century using musical instruments in the gathering of saints. Christ did not teach it. The apostles, in their epistles to various churches of Christ (in Ephesus, Thessalonica, Colosse, Corinth, etc), did not direct believers in Christ to operate mechanical music in the assembly.

Now, Dave and the Change Agents, have discovered that the apostles forgot all about instrumental music -- nothing was mentioned in the New Testament -- and are in full agreement with the papacy and the Roman Catholic Church that something is just missing when the saints gather or assemble together for edification and teaching and admonition.

Something is wrong with that picture!!!

 
 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.48

What is a hypocrite

December 6 2010, 8:50 PM 

[linked image]
[linked image]

 
 Respond to this message   
N.J. Gold
(Login NJGold)
172.162.100.134

Re: Ephesians 4:14 (A recovering legalist requests serious input from any perspective.)

December 11 2010, 2:12 PM 

That we may be no more children. Having spoken of that perfect manhood, towards which we are proceeding throughout the whole course of our life, he reminds us that, during such a progress, we ought not to resemble children. An intervening period is thus pointed out between childhood and man's estate. Those are "children" who have not yet advanced a step in the way of the Lord, but who still hesitate, -- who have not yet determined what road they ought to choose, but move sometimes in one direction and sometimes in another, always doubtful, always wavering. Those, again, who are thoroughly founded in the doctrine of Christ, though not yet perfect, have so much wisdom and vigor as to choose properly, and proceed steadily, in the right course. Thus we find that the life of believers, marked by a constant desire and progress towards those attainments which they shall ultimately reach, bears a resemblance to youth. At no period of this life are we men. But let not such a statement be carried to the other extreme, as if there were no progress beyond childhood. After being born to Christ, we ought to grow, so as "not to be children in understanding." (1 Corinthians 14:20.) Hence it appears what kind of Christianity the Popish system must be, when the pastors labor, to the utmost of their power, to keep the people in absolute infancy.

Tossed to and fro, and carried about. The distressing hesitation of those who do not place absolute reliance on the word of the Lord, is illustrated by two striking metaphors. The first is taken from small ships, exposed to the fury of the billows in the open sea, holding no fixed course, guided neither by skill nor design, but hurried along by the violence of the tempest. The next is taken from straws, or other light substances, which are carried hither and thither as the wind drives them, and often in opposite directions. Such must be the changeable and unsteady character of all who do not rest on the foundation of God's eternal truth. It is their just punishment for looking, not to God, but to men. Paul declares, on the other hand, that faith, which rests on the word of God, stands unshaken against all the attacks of Satan.

By every wind of doctrine. By a beautiful metaphor, all the doctrines of men, by which we are drawn away from the simplicity of the gospel, are called winds. God gave us his word, by which we might have placed ourselves beyond the possibility of being moved; but, giving way to the contrivances of men, we are carried about in all directions.

By the cunning of men. There will always be impostors, who make insidious attacks upon our faith; but, if we are fortified by the truth of God, their efforts will be unavailing. Both parts of this statement deserve our careful attention. When new sects, or wicked tenets, spring up, many persons become alarmed. But the attempts of Satan to darken, by his falsehoods, the pure doctrine of Christ, are at no time interrupted; and it is the will of God that these struggles should be the trial of our faith. When we are informed, on the other hand, that the best and readiest defense against every kind of error is to bring forward that doctrine which we have learned from Christ and his apostles, this surely is no ordinary consolation.

With what awful wickedness, then, are Papists chargeable, who take away from the word of God everything like certainty, and maintain that there is no steadiness of faith, but what depends on the authority of men! If a man entertain any doubt, it is in vain to bid him consult the word of God: he must abide by their decrees. But we have embraced the law, the prophets, and the gospel. Let us therefore confidently expect that we shall reap the advantage which is here promised, -- that all the impostures of men will do us no harm. They will attack us, indeed, but they will not prevail. We are entitled, I acknowledge, to look for the dispensation of sound doctrine from the church, for God has committed it to her charge; but when Papists avail themselves of the disguise of the church for burying doctrine, they give sufficient proof that they have a diabolical synagogue.

The Greek word kubei>a, which I have translated cunning, is taken from players at dice, who are accustomed to practice many arts of deception. The words, ejn panourgi>a|, by craftiness, intimate that the ministers of Satan are deeply skilled in imposture; and it is added, that they keep watch, in order to insnare, (proan th~v pla>nhv.) All this should rouse and sharpen our minds to profit by the word of God. If we neglect to do so, we may fall into the snares of our enemies, and endure the severe punishment of our sloth. [CALVIN].http://www.biblestudyguide.org/comment/calvin/comm_vol41/htm/iv.v.iii.htm

 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

I Wonder Why

December 13 2010, 11:41 AM 

I wonder why......God never sent a written public rebuke for David playing the instrument.
And NO.....Amos 6 is not such a rebuke. I
If you think about it....Amos 6 PROVES that God was pleased with David and where his heart was. Amos 6 warns against those who would wrongly use the instrument for something other than pleasing God. LIKE David.....meaning musicians.....not David being wrong.
Why wasn't there a rebuke for David and his playing? Because David sought to worship God with his heart. He used his ability to play to send that heart felt message to God.


 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Heart Felt

December 13 2010, 12:27 PM 

Should have used another APPROPRIATE term, other than 'heart felt.' I knot that makes you legalists livid.
Isn't 'personal savior' another term that makes you pull hair out?

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Heart Felt

December 13 2010, 1:08 PM 

Dave,

Where have you been? There is nothing wrong with the expression "personal Savior."

I'm just appalled that you agree with the implication that a sinner (one outside of Christ) can only believe (have faith) and be forgiven of all his past sins (washed away) and become God's child even WITHOUT or PRIOR TO "putting on Christ in BAPTISM."

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

You Wonder Why: I Do Not

December 13 2010, 12:59 PM 

Dave,

You (Dave) and David, king of Israel, a very skilled musician, have much in common: you are a musician, too, correct? Is it any surprise that you and the king would come up with the idea of using man-invented musical devices in worship to God?

Admit it: God has NEVER directed His followers (NOT even in the Old Testament) to worship Him with inanimate, lifeless, soul-less musical objects. (This has nothing to do with whether or not God abolished instrumental music under the new covenant.) Instead, David the musician concocted the notion that God would count his musical skills toward righteousness.


  1. There is no command or directive from God Himself that musical objects be used to worship Him -- not even in the Old Testament.

  2. There is nothing to ABOLISH that (instrumental music) which was never established to begin with.

  3. There is nothing in Scripture (including the O.T.) where God states: "I am pleased with your playing all sorts of instruments of music: therefore, continue in them." Now, it pleased the king of Israel. It is also pleasing to you, Dave, I know. But DO NOT EQUATE what pleases you with what pleases God.

  4. Why would God rebuke someone for using musical devices when He has not directed His followers to do so?

 
 Respond to this message   
Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

An Inconsistent Hermeneutic (application of Scripture)

December 13 2010, 3:16 PM 

It is inconsistent to say that certain Scriptures do not apply out of convenience.

Is Psalm 23 a teaching/directive from God through man (David) or only from man (David)?

Is Psalm 150 (praise God with IM) a teaching/directive from God through man (author unknown) or only from man?

Is Ephesians 4:5 (one baptism) a teaching/directive from God through man (Paul) or only from man (Paul)?

Is Exodus 20 (10 Commandments) a teaching/directive from God through man (Moses) or only from man (Moses)?

Is 2 Chronicles 29:25 a teaching/directive from God through man (David,Gad,Nathan and now Hezekiah) or only from man (David,Gad,Nathan,Hezekiah)?

2 Chronicles 29:35 states "So the service of the temple of the LORD was reestablished." Every indication is that Hezekiah's restoration of the temple, including instruments, was a positive reform that pleased God. vs. 25 even says "this was commanded BY THE LORD through his prophets."

Even most conservatives in the C of C say the IM of the OT was from God, but was limited to the O.T.

However, the minority of conservatives on this site say this is not even from God. They disregard Scriptures saying God was behind the implementing of instruments through David and the prophets. They choose a convenient hermeneutic that will uphold their traditions and dogmas. Furthermore, they bind their traditions on others.

In conclusion, it is inconsistent to say that certain Scriptures do not apply out of convenience. I have not dodged Ephesians 5:19 or Colossians 3:16. Some on this site dodge OT Scriptures and offer a slant on Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16. One can make melody in their heart while singing and playing an instrument simultaneously, just like one can sing without an instrument and NOT make melody in their heart.

-Sonny

 
 Respond to this message   
Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Re: You Wonder Why: I Do Not

December 13 2010, 4:22 PM 

1. There is no command or directive from God Himself that musical objects be used to worship Him -- not even in the Old Testament.
ANSWER--Donnie, did God give you a directive for what time you were supposed to get up and get ready for work this week? Does the Scriptures tell us that David was directed by God to use a sling to slay Goliath? Does the Scriptures tell us that David asked for authorization from God to use the sling? You can only ASSUME that where there is silence in the Scriptures about a subject, then it surely should not be done. Your assumption is wrong! David didn't NEED an authorization to play for God. Again, if playing for God, by David, was displeasing, we would have known about it. Uzzah died for touching the ark. Why? Because there was a directive for NOT touching it. I still haven't found the command against playing while we sing. David didn't hear it either.

2. There is nothing to ABOLISH that (instrumental music) which was never established to begin with.
ANSWER--It WAS established as legitimate worship from David to our God. If you don't believe that then you don't accept Psalms as Inspired Scripture. Again, why would God allow Inspired Scripture to come from the pen of David, if He wasn't pleased? Donnie, now is the time to go back to your circular logic of "If we don't accept burnt animal sacrifices then we can't accept anything David's playing.' Hey, if the Muslims can condemn the NT as being inaccurate, then why don't you do the same for the Old Testament?

3. There is nothing in Scripture (including the O.T.) where God states: "I am pleased with your playing all sorts of instruments of music: therefore, continue in them." Now, it pleased the king of Israel. It is also pleasing to you, Dave, I know. But DO NOT EQUATE what pleases you with what pleases God.
ANSWER--WRONG Donnie.--Acts 13 says "22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do. When God wasn't please with David, God let David know. What did he say about David's playing? Exactly! Are we to assume that God was pleased with David's playing? AGAIN, when God was NOT happy with David he was disciplined, and God was pleased with his confession. Did God call David down about his playing? Did David ever offer up a confession for playing instruments? Why didn't David do so? BECAUSE David knew that he WAS pleasing God with his playing, for David played for God! How is that for EQUATING what pleases God?

4. Why would God rebuke someone for using musical devices when He has not directed His followers to do so?
ANSWER---a better question is....Why wouldn't God let us know that He was displeased with David's playing if He wasn't pleased? Acts 13 says "22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.
Again, Donnie, did God rebuke David for his sins? Did God let David know, through Nathan, that his adultery and dealings with Uriah were not pleasing to Him? Did God rebuke and discipline David for playing his harp?
This isn't Donnie's logic....it is called VALID logic. So Donnie, as William Crump says, this is put to rest whether you like it or not.....God didn't command worship by instruments.....that is never been the the point. The point is that when God was displeased about something....man always KNEW ABOUT IT!!! Same thing today. That is why we are led by the Spirit. We do not have a direct command for everything, hence the example for the Great Commission and us being told to "GO." Jesus didn't tell us HOW to go and the examples of going then are different from us using a car, or the internet, or a plane, etc. today.
Donnie, I know this....you know what is right! You have been shown what is right. It gets to a point where all you are doing is arguing because you are too arrogant to be wrong.

 
 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.42

Yes: God has flooded the Scripture with warnings.

December 13 2010, 7:12 PM 

If you have long listened to songs and sermons you have probably learned the language of Ashdod.

God abandoned the nation to "worship the starry host" because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai; what gods do you think they worship when they called the golden call their god?

Christ the Rock ordained the Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness which was:

INCLUSIVE of Rest, reading and rehearsing the Word of God: what disciples do.
EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing: which is what not even Simple Simon would do when God's word is being PREACHED by being READ.

The unlawful and ungodly king, kingdom, temple and sacrificial system was after God "gave them kings in His anger" until the captivity and death sentence could carried out.

The Scribes record is called by "The Lying Pen of The Scribes." Jesus called the Scribes, hypocrites: in the Ezekiel 33 model Christ named performance speaking, singing and playing instruments--usually for money.

I don't know more than about 3 people in the Church of Christ who have ever read the fall from grace at Mount Sinai and the sentence began to be executed when the elders fired God and demanded a king like the nations; God knew that they wanted to worship like the nations but not for long.

If David performed a plague stopping animal sacrifice so that God would give him Mount Zion for an alternative sacrifice.

Then about 300 years later because the Levites were up to their craft of making 'music' while burning infants, another plague stopped. And Hezekiah burned the GOATS with the Levites noise, and Christ in the prophets said sacrifices or burnt offerings were NOT commanded, then HOW can you stretch that to be a PATTERN for the assembly which is a School of the Word.


 
 Respond to this message   
Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.241.142.84

Re: You Wonder Why: I Do Not

December 13 2010, 8:14 PM 

When Person A becomes upset because he knows (but will not openly admit) that Person B is really right, Person A then blows much smoke (throws a tantrum) and accuses Person B of being "too arrogant to be wrong."

If a person is right, those who have vowed to disagree with that person on all points will call him "arrogant."

 
 Respond to this message   
Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

tantrums grammar humility gnats forgiveness heaven

December 14 2010, 11:29 AM 

When person A blah blah person B blah blah (tantrum) blah blah person A blah blah and accuses person B blah blah

Throwing a tantrum?

Dave has yet to throw a "tantrum" but I know I am walking on thin ice to disagree once again with an assessment by the superior Doctor.

Maybe the perspective of a fragile sensitive and highly insecure person is that any disagreement means the other person or side of an issue is throwing a tantrum? Great diversion tactic there doc.

To be a tantrum on a site it would probably look more like this:

WHY CAN'T EVERYONE AGREE WITH ME AND MY BELIEFS? I AM A DOCTOR FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! I AM MORE INTELLECTUAL! IF YOU DISAGREE THEN YOU ARE WRONG! AND QUIT DISRESPECTING ME! DO NOT CALL ME SIR OR MISTER OR BY MY NAME! CALL ME BY MY TITLE! I AM A DOCTOR FOR PETE'S SAKE! YOU ARE THROWING A BIG TANTRUM! STOP THE TANTRUM! YOU MADE A GRAMMATICAL MISTAKE! LET ME CORRECT YOU! I AM A KNOW-IT-ALL! I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS! EVERYONE NEEDS TO THINK AND BELIEVE WHAT I THINK AND BELIEVE! EVERY CHRISTIAN SHOULD BE A CLONE! THERE IS NO ROOM IN THE CHURCH FOR DIVERSITY! DIFFERENCES ARE A THREAT! THERE IS NO ROOM FOR EMOTION! EMOTION EQUALS SIN! ALL EMOTION IS GROUP WHOOP! FRED'S LAST NAME IS WHALE_. DAVE IS THROWING A TANTRUM! TANTRUM ALERT! TANTRUM ALERT!

What a panzy!

Doctor Crump's reply to this message:

Option 1: blah blah blah Fred just threw a tantrum blah blah blah

Option 2: blah blah blah I am under Fred's skin happy.gif blah blah blah

Option 3: blah blah blah Grammatical Errors blah blah blah

Option 4: blah blah blah Birds of a feather blah blah blah

Option 5: blah blah blah assanine statements like panzy blah blah blah

Option 6: Let's fellowship and worship in spite of our differences and sing Kum Ba Yah. I am sorry for being a chump and for trying to force all my spiritual vomit, my toxic beliefs and opinions on others. I have strained gnats, at gnats, been focused on gnats, more on spiritual and grammatical gnats AND MISSED THE CAMEL! I need Jesus and grace as much as everyone else and finally admit I do not have a monopoly on God and Scripture.

Folks I would not bet the farm on option 6. Mr. Crump is too "arrogant" and self-righteous. He does not even need Jesus. He has the instrumental argument figured out which is a sure ticket through the pearly gates. To be wrong about instruments is a sure ticket to eternal fire. You can find it in Revelation in the symbolism. The 7th trumpet will sound and the symbolism reveals that those singing acappella will be with Jesus and those who use intruments will not be with Jesus. Jesus also teaches that the unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is a reference to instrumental worship. The Bible states in the Old and New Testaments that instrumental worship is sin. While other grotesque sins are forgiveable instrumental worship is not. Jesus died for acappella sinners but not instrumental sinners. Jesus died for the Church of Christ but not for other Christians. *Disclaimer: Jesus did not die for "liberals" and "change agents" in the Church of Christ.

Fred Whaley

"If you are in the parking lot and have still not quit arguing with the people on the porch, you haven't left the Church of Christ yet."

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

SAMPLING Musical Devices in the Assembly to See What It's Like?

December 14 2010, 1:21 AM 

This is in response (in blue) to Sonny's remarks (in black):

It is inconsistent to say that certain Scriptures do not apply out of convenience.
RESPONSE: What's important is to validate doctrines and beliefs with supporting scriptures. That will eliminate any inconsistency and any question that such scriptures apply/do not apply "out of convenience."
Is Psalm 23 a teaching/directive from God through man (David) or only from man (David)?
RESPONSE: Psalm 23 teaches an eternal, universal principle of a Shepherd-and-the-sheep relationship, whether or not it came from God through man. We find such an eternal principle also in the New Testament (Mark 6:34; John 10:2-16). The N.T. even speaks of the great Shepherd (Heb. 13:20) or the chief Shepherd (I Peter 5:4).
Is Psalm 150 (praise God with IM) a teaching/directive from God through man (author unknown) or only from man?
RESPONSE: Psalm 150 is one of a number of chapters in the book of Psalms that deal with musical instruments. Just because it was written in or is a part of the fully inspired Holy Scripture, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is a directive from God. Remember that the Holy Scripture, although completely written by divine inspiration, includes not only God's laws and commandments, but also various subject matters such as history, poetry, biography, prophecy, the good deeds of mankind, the evil deeds of mankind (including idolatry, murder, theft, adultery, etc.). Remember that these were all "men of God": Moses, Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel who went up and saw the God of Israel (Exo. 24:9-10). Yes, "man of God" was the writer of Psalm 150, but what does that prove? Nadab and Abihu were also men of God, remember? And what happened when they put fire in the censer and incense on the censer and offered strange fire before the Lord--which the Lord DID NOT COMMAND? "Praise God with instruments of music" was a directive from a musically-inspired man. Was "praise God with instruments of music" a directive from God? No!!!

Here are concrete examples of how God would command or direct His followers:

(1) "The LORD said unto Moses, ... charge the people ... let the priests sanctify themselves..."

(2) "God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above.... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God.... Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."

Quoting Psalm 150 to prove that God directed His followers to worship Him with musical devices is taking lightly what God's covenant (which did not include instrumental music) was with the Israelites. In fact, Psalm 150 specifically lists the following instruments:

-- sound of the trumpet
-- psaltery
-- harp
-- timbrel and
-- DANCE
-- stringed instruments
-- organs
-- LOUD cymbals
-- HIGH SOUNDING cymbals
-- [plus numerous other devices listed in Daniel 3]

Now, for those musical worshipers, which ones of the above are your favorite?

Now, for DANCE lovers, do not forget dancing in your assembly.
Is Ephesians 4:5 (one baptism) a teaching/directive from God through man (Paul) or only from man (Paul)?
RESPONSE: Now ... now ... now ... that argument is non-sensical. Don't forget that baptism is taught and commanded in the book of Acts and in the epistles. Remember when PETER was asked by those had already heard the message and believed "that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.": "... what shall we do?" PETER said: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ...." There -- the apostles like Paul and Peter. Not lovers of musical instruments.
Is Exodus 20 (10 Commandments) a teaching/directive from God through man (Moses) or only from man (Moses)?
RESPONSE: The Law of Moses came from God through Moses -- which is not an issue. (See response above.)
Is 2 Chronicles 29:25 a teaching/directive from God through man (David,Gad,Nathan and now Hezekiah) or only from man (David,Gad,Nathan,Hezekiah)?
RESPONSE:

(1) NO: "... with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, et al. Not only that musical instruments were according to the COMMANDMENT of David (not God) but also that musical instruments were ORDAINED by David (not God) -- cf. II Chron. 29:27.

(2) NO: "... he set the Levites in the house of the LORD ... for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets."
2 Chronicles 29:35 states "So the service of the temple of the LORD was reestablished." Every indication is that Hezekiah's restoration of the temple, including instruments, was a positive reform that pleased God. vs. 25 even says "this was commanded BY THE LORD through his prophets."
RESPONSE: David included the instruments. He commanded and ordained them, in fact. There's no proof that "including instruments" pleased God.

"So the service of the house of the LORD was set in order."

Don't forget, however, the preceding statement: "And also the burnt offerings were in abundance, with the fat of the peace offerings, and the drink offerings for every burnt offering. So the service of the house of the LORD was set in order"

In fact, you should consider just the number of burnt offerings and consecrated things alone:

-- 70 bullocks
-- 100 rams
-- 200 lambs
-- 600 oxen
-- 3,000 sheep
Even most conservatives in the C of C say the IM of the OT was from God, but was limited to the O.T.

However, the minority of conservatives on this site say this is not even from God. They disregard Scriptures saying God was behind the implementing of instruments through David and the prophets. They choose a convenient hermeneutic that will uphold their traditions and dogmas. Furthermore, they bind their traditions on others.
RESPONSE: I have already discussed the "convenient hermeneutic" issue. It is not a matter of what most conservatives or a few conservatives use as arguments for or against instrumental music. Rather, it is a matter of whether or not the use or operation of MUSICAL DEVICES is a command or directive from God in the ASSEMBLY OF SAINTS. Keep in mind that these are man-made musical objects or idols. True: that David, king of Israel and a skilled musician used these objects in his "personal praise" to God. He was speaking for himself -- not for a congregation of God's people. He was not in the ASSEMBLY of saints, much less in the assembly of New Testament saints. Wonder why Christ and the apostles did not direct New Testament Christians to operate MECHANICAL MUSIC in the gathering of saints?

"That the Scripture does not say "NOT TO"; therefore it is God-authorized" is a silly, non-sensical, fallacious and dead argument.
In conclusion, it is inconsistent to say that certain Scriptures do not apply out of convenience. I have not dodged Ephesians 5:19 or Colossians 3:16. Some on this site dodge OT Scriptures and offer a slant on Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16. One can make melody in their heart while singing and playing an instrument simultaneously, just like one can sing without an instrument and NOT make melody in their heart.
RESPONSE: No one is authorized to change or improve upon the simple directive in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16. Beside, no one will ever find any passage in the New Testament of man even SAMPLING the use of musical devices in the ASSEMBLY or gathering of saints.

 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

A question from Donnie

December 14 2010, 11:40 AM 

Donnie asked...."Is Psalm 23 a teaching/directive from God through man (David) or only from man (David)?

Let us see what the Scriptures say about it.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

Donnie, does "ALL" Scripture include the Old Testament? If so, does that include the Psalms from David?

Do you actually believe that God would have allowed David to have his Psalms printed if he wasn't pleased with them?
Acts 13
22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.

Donnie, it is not so much a LOSING battles as it is a LOST battle that you are fighting.

Notice in Act 13 where the author says that David will do only what David wants to do for God.
Oh, excuse me, the author didn't say that, did he? The author said that David will do what for GOD? EVERYTHING that God wanted.

You have tried, along with Ken, to use the adjectives, such as 'nudist' and 'dancer' to negatively describe someone whom (which one William...who or whom>)God loved.
That, gentlemen, is your curse.


 
 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.20

And NONE useful for "Sanging."

December 14 2010, 11:19 PM 

Matt. 17:2 And was transfigured before them:
......and his face did shine as the sun,
......and his raiment was white as the light.
Matt. 17:3 And, behold, there appeared
......unto them Moses (the Law: not slaughter music)
......and Elias talking with him. (Reputiating all under the Monarchy)
......NO DAVID.

Matt. 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here:
......if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles;
.........one for thee,
.........and one for Moses,
.........and one for Elias.
.........NO DAVID.
Matt. 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them:
......and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,
......This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; HEAR ye HIM.

2Pet. 1:19 We have also a more sure word of PROPHECY;
......whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, (The only worship word)
...,,,...as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,
.........until the day dawn,
.........and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture
......is of any private interpretation. (further expounding)
2Pet. 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
......but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

......2Pet. 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people,
...... ......even as there shall be false teachers among you,
...... ......who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
...... ......even denying the Lord that bought them,
...... ......and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
......2Pet. 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways;
...... ......by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
......2Pet. 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words
...... ......make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not,
...... ......and their damnation slumbereth not.

This is anyone who fabricates sermons or songs when Jesus did all of the expounding free of charge.

Empor-euomai , *4. [select] c. acc. pers., make gain of, overreach, cheat, plastois logois humas 2 Ep.Pet.2.3:also in Act., Plb.38.12.10.

God is not worshipped in houses built by human hands or by the WORKS of human hands.

A. Plastos , , on, II. metaph., fabricated, forged, counterfeit, ek logou plastou
......Hdt.1.68; p. bakkheiai sham inspirations,
B. Logos or making speeches

They Traffic in speaking

Method-eu , treat or practise by rule or method, tekhnnemploy craft,
A. female epainos epain-os approval, praise, commendation
......2. complimentary address, panegyric
......(but distd. fr. egkmion, as the general from the particular
B. Rhetorikos A. oratorical, h rhtorik (sc. tekhn) rhetoric,
......2. of persons, skilled in speaking, fit to be an orator,

IT'S EASY TO SORT THEM OUT.

 
 Respond to this message   
Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.13.95

Re: A question from Donnie

December 14 2010, 11:30 PM 

Usually when a person desperately says, "You're fighting a losing battle," it means that person is the one who has lost the battle and doesn't know what else to say. I wonder how many convicted criminals have said that just before they were executed. happy.gif

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Correction: That was a question from Sonny.

December 15 2010, 12:47 AM 

Dave,

I'll gently "admonish" you for not paying much attention to details when it is necessary. That was not my question. That was Sonny Elliot's question.

So, Dave, I have already answered Sonny's question regarding Psalm 23.

I have also addressed what the divinely inspired Holy Scripture is comprised of. I stated the following -- which you completely missed:
"Remember that the Holy Scripture, although completely written by divine inspiration, includes not only God's laws and commandments, but also various subject matters such as history, poetry, biography, prophecy, the good deeds of mankind, the evil deeds of mankind (including idolatry, murder, theft, adultery, etc.)."
So, Dave, the inspiration of Psalm 150 or God allowing the book of Psalms to be "printed" is not an issue.

That David would do "EVERYTHING that God wanted," said you? And placing musical instruments on top of the list of EVERYTHING? I'm glad you're the one making that claim. Read the rest of the chapter carefully. You will notice that "David ... a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will" is in reference to David's public life as king of Israel in contradistinction from that of Saul as king. In context, the passage does not even mention praise or worship, much less musical instruments!

 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Judgment upon Yourselves

December 15 2010, 2:27 PM 

I quote Donnie......"That David would do "EVERYTHING that God wanted," said you? And placing musical instruments on top of the list of EVERYTHING? I'm glad you're the one making that claim. Read the rest of the chapter carefully. You will notice that "David ... a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will" is in reference to David's public life as king of Israel in contradistinction from that of Saul as king. In context, the passage does not even mention praise or worship, much less musical instruments!"

You are right about the connotation of Acts 13 with David in regards to Saul. HOWEVER, the fact that David was praised in this way by YOUR God means that King David WAS/IS special. How many times is David mentioned in the lineage of our King Jesus??? How quick was God to forgive David after his sins with the birth of Solomon? Donnie, ever heard of David's son Solomon?
You KNOW how you and Ken keep coming up with your snide and harsh remarks about David being a 'nudist' and 'dancer.'
ANYTIME that you do that to protect your tradition of a capella worship.....all you are doing is raining curses upon yourself. You can believe that if nothing else.

Donnie, answer a question with a straight answer for once.....if you can.
If you don't want a child to touch something on a coffee table......do you just keep silent and hope he/she knows that you don't want the item touched, or do you tell that child NOT to touch the item?


 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Defending David: King of Israel, Musician and Dancer

December 16 2010, 2:27 AM 

Dave,

If you're really interested to know where to find the passage concerning David being a nudist and dancer, besides being king of Israel and a musician, here it is:
"And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart. And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts. And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house. Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!" (II Samuel 6:14-20)
OK, Dave, do you think the "linen ephod" was his underwear? In case you didn't notice in the passage, besides his nudity and dancing, David "offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the Lord"

Since, in your mind, David ensampled for you the kind of worship there is/should be in the ASSEMBLY of the saints, are the congregants supposed to do the following?

-- Gird with a linen ephod and uncover self
-- Dance before the Lord
-- Bring in the ark of the Lord with shouting and sound of the trumpet
-- Offer burnt offerings and peace offerings
-- Have a fellowship meal

Now, regarding your last question: "If you don't want a child to touch something on a coffee table...." You are essentially making a reference to "the law of silence" -- which sadly is frequently misapplied by proponents of the operation of mechanical music in the assembly.

Well, Dave, the premise of your argument is fallacious. David, king of Israel, a skilled musician, nudist and dancer CANNOT BE EQUATED TO a child. He was an adult.

Therefore, your argument: "The Scripture doesn't say 'NOT TO' use musical instruments in the assembly; therefore, it is God-authorized" is ERRONEOUS.

 
 Respond to this message   
 
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

Place your banner ad here.           See all banner ads

...ConcernedMembers.com ...About ...Links Library ...Sunday School in Exile ...Help Warn Others


FastCounter by bCentral

CM Visit Counter as of 6/25/2015
2,101,394

Site Visits Since 6/30/2015
page counter