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Ephesians 4:14 (A recovering legalist requests serious input from any perspective.)

November 30 2010 at 10:47 PM
Sonny  (no login)
from IP address 99.186.93.107

"Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming."

What is this verse saying? Does the context reveal that the being tossed back and forth is addressing a specific false teaching?






I personally believe the answer is "no", that it is not addressing one specific error but any teaching that causes Christians and the Church to drift from Jesus Christ. Thus, when Christians (preachers, elders, other teachers) cause others to get off of Christ and on to matters of opinion or the latest fad and hold this up as a must ("thus sayeth the Lord") that it is what this verse is warning.

If this is a correct interpretation, then all of us need to heed the warning.

"Progressives", "conservatives", "moderates", or whomever can all unintentionally get side tracked from the actual teachings of Jesus Christ and fight and even divide over matters for which the spiritually mature ("no longer infants") will not permit to happen.

We need to keep the main thing (Jesus) the main thing.

We do not need to make people think the main thing is _____________.

What would be in your blank?

As an example, at my congregation we worship God in the assembly with only acappella singing. There are several who believe that instrumental would likewise be acceptable to God, however, they do not and have never made it an issue as it would likely be divisive within the congregation and definitely within the community. The church is unified in reaching the lost and fulfilling our mission and keeping Jesus the main thing and not music, etc.

However, as a negative example, at my congregation a few (2 or 3 families) are attempting to make the preaching minister position a conflict and replacing him based not on teachings or lifestyle but personality and wanting a style that is more charismatic. Could this be a pitfall for which Ephesians 4:14 would apply?

-Sonny

 
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AuthorReply
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.30

Ephesians 4

November 30 2010, 11:13 PM 

It is dangerous to try to make dogma out of any translation: one Hebrew word can be translated by up to 70 English words. If you are going to try to fabricate a list of dogma you had better resort to some better resources than handed out in most schools. Jesus made it easy by commanding that the Word be preached by being read.

In Romans 14 outlawing doubtful disputations prevents anyone adding anything to the scheduled text. Whatever the translation the minds or spirits will be disciplined.

In Ephesians 4 Jesus gave gifted leaders to PREVENT what Paul defines as the function of music.
Then, you can conduct school of the Word without disabling the rational or spiritual mind which is the role of music. That's why it is called enchantment or sorcery.

http://www.piney.com/Ephesians.4.Unity.in.Diversity.html

Still working on this one.

 
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Sonny
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99.186.93.107

Re: Ephesians 4

December 1 2010, 12:07 AM 

I guess I did say any perspective. Thank you.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.39

It's the Word

December 1 2010, 1:04 PM 

This is the only study of Ephesians 4 you will find in the "brotherhood" seeking to become a "sisterhood."

 
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Ken Sublett
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ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.39

ALWAYS a Gender marker

December 1 2010, 1:25 PM 

[linked image][linked image]
[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 67.142.130.39 on Dec 1, 2010 1:27 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Ephesians 4:14 (A recovering legalist requests serious input from any perspective.)

December 5 2010, 1:04 AM 

The initial post stated:
As an example, at my congregation we worship God in the assembly with only acappella singing. There are several who believe that instrumental would likewise be acceptable to God, however, they do not and have never made it an issue as it would likely be divisive within the congregation and definitely within the community. The church is unified in reaching the lost and fulfilling our mission and keeping Jesus the main thing and not music, etc.


Sonny,

How large is your congregation? That "several" who believe IM is acceptable would be represented by approximately what percentage of the membership -- 20% ... 45% ... 62%? I imagine that most of the "several" are young people. I also deduce from numerous posts of yours in defense of instrumental music that you are one of those in the "several" group.

At this stage, I believe that your eldership is to be commended for not succumbing to the desires of the other side. Much of the problem with division, when it happens, should not be attributed to the individual members of the congregation. It is common knowledge that a member who strongly disagrees with the church's teachings will simply leave and seek fellowship somewhere else. Rather, much of the problem with division can be attributed to whatever decisions made by the elders.

While the ultimate goal set for the Madison congregation might have been to become that "musical" [I wouldn't know this for sure], the division occurred at the [earlier] stage of "transformation" -- it was during the employment of the services of the "Praise Team." (It is a.k.a. "the Church of Christ CHOIR."] That wasn't even about instrumental music. Yet, division occurred.

Once division has occurred, recovery from it is almost impossible to achieve.

No congregation is expected to have all of its members to agree on every religious issue, as the conservatives in politics are not expected to agree on every conservative issue. But yet by having the same practices, the congregation can be "of the same mind and the same judgment."

Try implementing musical instruments in a non-IM congregation and see what happens. Many of those who oppose the use of musical devices in the assembly are likely to leave. That is nothing less than DIVISION in real action.

Be careful about the use of the expression "legalist" or "legalism." I have changed some of my religious viewpoints through the years for a better and greater knowledge of God's truth. That doesn't make me a legalist or a "recovering legalist." I think that the same is true with you.

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: Ephesians 4:14 (A recovering legalist requests serious input from any perspective.)

December 6 2010, 6:51 PM 

Brother Cruz,

I believe you misunderstood my point. Our elders have not had to "take a stand" because no one is pursuing or pushing change.

A conservative number would be 30% of adult members who have no problem with instruments. In fact, we have several couples who used to worship where there were instruments. They did not come to our church because we did or did not have them, but for other reasons. Our church teaches to be Christians only. In fact, we have couples with Baptist, Methodist, and even 3 with Pentecostal backgrounds. I know we aren't the only ones so I am not bragging, but just answering your question. The ages of those neutral on IM range from a few in the 50's to several in their 40's and 30's. Definitely to the 20's and teens it is a non-issue, but they all like to sing and I have not heard anyone in the youngest ages expressing change or being disgruntled, nor anyone older.

While I do not believe Scripture condemns directly nor indirectly (through "law of silence/exclusion"), I would actually be against our congregation changing on this matter.

Finally, I agree with you that changing a view or "growing" does not mean or imply that one was a legalist.

I was one because I made laws where God did not and bound those on others, like the Pharisees. They were very pious and religious and their teachings very rigid and strict.

Matthew 23:4 - "They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders..."

Matthew 23:13 - "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You youselves do not enter nor will you let those enter who are trying to."

Matthew 23:15 _ "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."

I think the C of C is good at helping people practice both self-righteousness and self-condemnation because we do not teach grace. Not as a license - we do not teach it for what it is. The good news is the gospel of grace.

-Sonny

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Re: Ephesians 4:14 (A recovering legalist requests serious input from any perspective.)

December 7 2010, 9:36 AM 

Sonny I would like to add Matthew 23:24 where Jesus calls the Pharisees blind guides because they strain a gnat and swallow a camel.

Fred Whaley

"If you are in the parking lot and have still not quit arguing with the people on the porch, you haven't left the Church of Christ yet."

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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74.241.153.244

Re: Ephesians 4:14 (A recovering legalist requests serious input from any perspective.)

December 7 2010, 12:25 PM 

Fred cited Jesus' quote about the Pharisees: "...they strain a gnat and swallow a camel."

Actually, the phrase Jesus used was "...they strain at a gnat and swallow a camel."

The wording "...strain a gnat..." implies trying to separate a gnat from liquid by using a filter.

The wording "...strain at a gnat..." is a hyperbole that means making much ado about trivial things.

Omission of a word can make a big difference.


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Ephesians 4:14 (A recovering legalist requests serious input from any perspective.)

December 8 2010, 12:12 AM 

Sonny,

I didn't think I misunderstood your point regarding your congregation's mixed viewpoints on instrumental music. I was not implying that a segment of the membership was pushing change or that change agents were intruding or interfering with the affairs of the congregation to push their agenda. But I agree that a no-action on the part of the elders was a good thing, considering that they're knowledgeable of the varying positions on IM among the members. To me this would be an indication that the elders, along with the membership, are united -- "of the same mind and of the same judgment" for the sake of the church. I must say, though, that your congregation's situation is not that unique. This has gone on throughout the history of the RM churches, including and even during the period when the religious census of 1906 made the "split" official. It's been more pronounced in the last few decades because of the popularity of the Charismatic, Contemporary Christian Music and Change Movements among the youth in our churches.

I did mention the Madison congregation's experience because in pursuing the agenda of the change agents to "transform" the church into Community Church-ism, the elders were divided even at the decision of whether or not to incorporate the "Praise Team" scheme into the worship assembly.

Thanks for the stats you provided. They're about what I had expected. Also, there will always be guests from other religious faiths present in our assemblies. Those are opportunities for evangelism outside the church family.

I'll have to disagree with your stance that "Scripture [does not condemn the use of musical instruments] directly [or] indirectly...." Why would you seek a "thou shalt not use musical devices" just as you would expect a "thou shalt have no other gods before me"? In the latter case, God had already directed His followers to worship Him as: "I am the LORD thy God." On the other hand, God has never directed His followers to worship Him with the operation of mechanical music.

On legalism, would you explain your assertion: "I was one [a legalist] because I made laws where God did not and bound those on others, like the Pharisees...."

Could you be more specific or provide an example(s) regarding which "laws" you made "where God did not and bound those on others"?

Please answer this one particular question that I have for you -- "Did you label yourself as a 'legalist' at the time that you were aware [say 15 or 20 years ago] that you made 'laws' and bound them on others?"

The reason I am curious to know is that the expression "legalist" or "legalistic" or "legalism" has been more widely used in reference to being in opposition to "inherited" beliefs, teachings and practices from preceding generations. You will hear "ex-church-of-Christ" members say the following: "I was a legalist" or "... the cofC is a legalistic denomination" or "I have left legalism." Go check out their website.

What did you mean by "because we do not teach grace"? How so? How would/do you teach "grace"?

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: Ephesians 4:14 (A recovering legalist requests serious input from any perspective.)

December 8 2010, 11:58 PM 

Here are a few examples of laws I made based on my interpretive slant that God does not in Scripture:

It is wrong to clap hands with a song.
It is wrong to worship God with instruments.
It is wrong to raise hands during prayer/worship.
It is wrong to have children's worship during a sermon.
It is wrong to have move than 1 person leading worship.
It is wrong to have a woman lead songs with the children at VBS.
It is wrong to for women to have speaking parts during a skit at VBS.
It is wrong for a church to have something different on a Sunday evening (meeting in homes, serving people).

No, I did not think of myself as a legalist. I had a good heart while I was mistaken. I saw myself as someone standing for the truth. I just did not see how my traditions were affecting (and I'm sure they still do) my understanding of Scripture.

Two things influenced me with the IM issue.

1. When I was convinced that clapping is o.k. then I noticed an inconsistency between my interpretation for clapping and instruments. To be consistent, either both are permitted or both are not.

2. A while back when I mentioned the story about the elder who said to me IM is o.k. at home but not at a church building. I started thinking (uh oh, don't think) how this was his opinion and conscience based on whatever, including our tradition, and is not in Scripture. In fact, we are to worship God in our homes. Therefore, to be consistent, IM is either acceptable in homes and church buildings or neither.

How does grace fit into the Christian equation and experience? Great question. I wish I had this one completely figured out for every possible scenario.

-Sonny

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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70.146.139.113

Re: Ephesians 4:14 (A recovering legalist requests serious input from any perspective.)

December 9 2010, 2:28 AM 

If God gives a specific command and outlines the parameters that are to be met in that command, must God then turn around and say, "OK, now I'm gonna give you an exhaustive list of everything that is forbidden under that command"? God doesn't work that way. He expects us to take His commands and follow them without adding to them or taking from them.

For example, Jesus has given us instructions about what we are to use as emblems for the Lord's Supper. He doesn't need to condemn other food and drink, because He is quite clear about the acceptable emblems we are to use. Had Jesus said, "Eat and drink whatever pleases you to remember My body and blood," we would be free to have pizza and soft drinks, for example. Can we not take Jesus at His Word and follow His directions faithfully without tweaking (abusing) them to suit our personal pleasures and preferences?

The same applies to music to praise God. God through Paul told us in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 to sing and make melody in the heart. That is, praise music is to be through the human voice without instrumental accompaniment. God doesn't need to condemn instruments in the New Testament, because He is quite clear that we are to use vocal music to praise Him. Had God said, "Worship Me with music," then we would be free to add IM to our singing. Can we not take Him at His Word and follow His instructions faithfully without tweaking (abusing) them to suit our personal pleasures and preferences?

It's an old argument, yet people will still find ways in their own eyes to change God's commands and absolve themselves of wrongdoing.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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72.154.219.160

Re: Ephesians 4:14 (A recovering legalist requests serious input from any perspective.)

December 9 2010, 10:25 AM 

I single out one example of "laws" Sonny made based on his interpretive slant of laws that God does not state in [New Testament] Scripture (according to Sonny's viewpoint):

It is wrong to worship God with instruments.

That statement, according to Sonny, is a man-made law that has no basis in New Testament Scripture. Further, Sonny implies that since God does not explicitly condemn instruments in the New Testament, then we are free to use them in worshipping Him. Such reasoning is the same as saying, "God didn't say not to use instruments in worship." That is a dangerous assumption man is quite willing to make in view of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, yet man conveniently ignores the fact that "God didn't say not to" appears nowhere in the New Testament.

As I said previously, we must be willing to follow God's New Testament Word faithfully and not tweak (abuse) it to suit our own personal pleasures and preferences. If we do not follow His Word as He has directed, how can we expect to receive His grace?

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Which Way to Go???

December 9 2010, 2:24 PM 

William Crump said...."Further, Sonny implies that since God does not explicitly condemn instruments in the New Testament, then we are free to use them in worshipping Him. Such reasoning is the same as saying, "God didn't say not to use instruments in worship." That is a dangerous assumption man is quite willing to make in view of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, yet man conveniently ignores the fact that "God didn't say not to" appears nowhere in the New Testament."

The implication by William Crump is that since we are instructed to sing, then we are instructed to sing without instruments that would accompany our singing. The implication here, also, by William Crump, is that since God hasn't told us that instrumental music is sinful, then any man can add to the Word of God and make instrumental singing sinful.
The ONLY implication that would be pleasing to God is this.....as long as man SINGS, whether he uses an instrument to accompany that singing or not is irrelevant, then he is doing what God would have him to do. Singing to please God, to worship Him, and worship God only is our purpose.....this can be done with an instrument or without. The instrument would only AID the singing. Just as King David did......he chose to use all of himself to Glorify God. He used his ability and talent to PLAY for God....and and sang to Him also. Oh yea, and when that wasn't enough.....David danced for our Lord also. What it comes down to is this.....no man can presume to know whether another man is able to please our Lord with his worship to God. So talk about the sangy clappy style....make fun of it, talk about whether or not the praise team has the authority to lead singing, but think about this.....a man needs not be stupid and presume that he can take the place of God and Judge a man's heart. Only God can do that.
happy.gif

 
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Sonny
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99.186.93.107

Re: Ephesians 4:14 (A recovering legalist requests serious input from any perspective.)

December 11 2010, 11:26 AM 

Brother Crump,

The Bible actually DOES say to praise God with instruments and clapping. Directly in the OT, and instruments can be a "necessary inference" (CENI) from the NT when it says to sing "with psalms".

Concerning the OT vs. NT argument that you and others so often make, Jesus did not come to abolish the OT law but to fulfill it. Thus, things like sacrificing animals is no longer necessary because Jesus is the sacrificial lamb. There is no longer a need for a High Priest because he is, and so forth. It is the C of C that says all in the OT is abolished. I love the one people use about how all 10 Commandments were abolished, but then 9 of them "carried over". If this is the case, why could clapping and instruments not be "carried over". There is singing in the OT which is obviously carried over.

If you believe it is wrong to worship God with instruments and clapping then you definitely should not. I do not, or very rarely, even though I no longer believe it is wrong.

But much of the "patternism" mentioned by those in the C of C is not from Scripture but man.

For example, Scripture teaches baptism. This would not be man-made. However, Scripture does not address how many worship leaders or speakers. The text that provides the clearest insight is 1 Corinthians 14:26ff about people taking turns with hymns and prophesying.

-Sonny

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.21

Instruments in the Law of Moses?

December 11 2010, 12:07 PM 

I missed something? Where in The Law of Moses is there any command to play instruments?

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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70.156.26.214

Re: Ephesians 4:14 (A recovering legalist requests serious input from any perspective.)

December 11 2010, 1:29 PM 

Since Christ fulfilled the Old Law, animal sacrifices and all the other rituals are no longer practiced in Christianity. Therefore, it seems odd that, of all those Old Testament practices that were connected with the Old Law, instrumental music should be selectively carried over into Christianity. From 2 Chron. 29, we know that IM accompanied the animal sacrifices, yet there is nothing in the New Testament that states we are to continue with instruments. On the other hand, we have explicit instructions in the New Testament telling us to sing and make melody in our hearts. People will continue to do as they please, of course, but it seems more wise to follow the New Testament's instructions without allowing personal preferences to tweak (abuse) those instructions.

As far as the Ten Commandments are concerned, they are a set of basic, moral laws that are universal and would apply to virtually any monotheistic religion. Those commandments are unique neither to Judaism nor to Christianity. Many other religions have laws concerning murder, theft, lying, adultery, respect for parents and authority, only one deity, a hallowed day(s) or time period for worship, etc.

Therefore, an argument for IM doesn't wash when it is based on the premise that the Ten Commandments were unique to the Old Law, and since they were "carried over" to Christianity, then IM can be carried over as well. No, it doesn't wash at all.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

The Old Covenant (Including the 10 Commandments) Was Abolished

December 11 2010, 2:35 PM 

Sonny,

You know much, much better than to use the 10 Commandments and the carried-over argument in defense of instrumental music.


Hebrews 8:
[6] But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; . . . [13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
In the gospels (and you know it), it can be proven that the old covenant, including the 10 Commandments, was abolished. And the 10 Commandments, including the Sabbath, were abolished? Yes!!!

Correct, we do not need the 10 Commandments, including the sabbath, because the two great commandments mentioned in the gospels cover more than the other 9 commandments:
[30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
[31] And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. (Mark 12)
When one loves God (the first of two great commandments), he will not have other gods, worship any graven images, etc.

When one loves his neighbor (the second of the great commandments), he does not kill, commit adultery, steal, lie, covet; plus, he does not other sinful things listed in the NT, but not in the OT.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.21

Law of moses

December 11 2010, 2:53 PM 

Remember that:

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses,
but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The Law of Moses is defined ONLY in the Torah.
There is no command, example or inference of Moses commanding instrumental music: in fact in Numbers 10 he outlawed it when the assembly (synagogue) came together for instruction in the word of God only.

The Law of Moses was given because of musical idolatry but it was good in that it regulated people to protect the weak from the strong. The Law of Moses regulated the physical lives but was never intended to make the conscience clean.

Deut. 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments,
which I teach you, for to do them,

1. that ye may live,
2. and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

Deut. 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you,
neither shall ye diminish ought from it,
that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

ONLY the prophets by the Spirit of Christ regulated the spiritual lives: Moses regulated their secular lives.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead

The records of the NOT-commanded Monarchy, temple and sacrificial system is not the Law of Moses: it is the Law imposed by Kings because they had been abandoned to Babylonianism.

NO MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS IN THE LAW OF MOSES FOR WORSHIP


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Re: Ephesians 4:14 (A recovering legalist requests serious input from any perspective.)

December 12 2010, 9:56 PM 

When one man uses the worn out argument of "Since Christ fulfilled the Old Law, animal sacrifices and all the other rituals are no longer practiced in Christianity," we know that some people just will not accept the Truth, even when it stares them straight in the face.
You can't say that "all the other rituals are no longer practiced" just because animal sacrifices were done away with.
Christ did not do away with ALL those rituals.....He DID do away with animal sacrifices.
Matthew 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Murder
21 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment. 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, Raca, is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, You fool! will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Did Jesus do away with the command 'You shall not murder?' No. He just added that not only murder is wrong but being angry with a brother is wrong.
Where did the command of 'You shall not murder' come from?
Yup! The Old Testament.
Have you never heard, when mentioning the Lord's Supper...the term of the Lord's Supper being the 'passover of the New Convenant?'
Of coures you have.
The New Testament just made better the rituals of the Old Law. We now have the ONE Sacrifice....which means we don't need animal sacrifices. We now have a new and better passover.
Now tell me.....how does doing away with instrumental music work into the picture here?
You got it....it doesn't. It is a Houdini like farce by those who want THEIR ritual of a capella only, non-instrumental music to be the TRADITION that is ONLY used to worship God. One can make a melody in their heart with or without an instrument. The instrument does not keep one from singing and making a melody in their heart to God.
Those who want the 'voice only' will resort to anything to make sure that their TRADITION is upheld as the only Scriptural means of worship to our God. Their problem??? It does not have the backing from the Word of God.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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