Place your banner ad here.          See all banner ads

|| ConcernedMembers.com || About || Links Library || Help Warn Others ||
|| Madison Church of Christ || Richland Hills Church of Christ || Hillcrest Church of Christ || More Churches || Sunday School in Exile ||

Where is my NewThisWeek Email subscription?Click Here

Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
David Gustafson
(Login DavidGustafson)
207.157.10.118

Is God the author of confusion

March 2 2011, 2:50 PM 

Quote from Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
70.156.18.141 Re: But today's "change agent" is incapable of utterly destroying today's evil February 19 2011, 3:01 PM

"For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints" (1 Cor. 14:33 KJV).

_______________________________________________________________________________

Dr. Bill Crump,

Are you sure about this? Would you like to discuss this?

David



 
 Respond to this message   
Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.13.51

Re: Is God the author of confusion

March 3 2011, 11:04 AM 

David again quotes 1 Cor. 14:33, which says that God is NOT the author of confusion, then David seems to question that passage. David would imply that God IS the author of confusion. That's what David seems to imply. Hmmmm...I'm beginning to wonder about David. Actually, there's nothing to discuss, since the New Testament is quite clear. We would be wise to leave it at that.

 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Indeed

February 20 2011, 9:24 PM 

Someone once said.....
"Christ would never cause confusion and division in the church He established."

No Christ would not, but He sure brought confusion and division to the Jewish hierarchy. Look at what the Pharisees and Sadducees said about Jesus Christ. The Jews had the Old Law, and they didn't want Jesus anywhere near their synagogues telling everyone that He was God on earth. They hated him.
The church has changed in so many ways from that first century church, but now we have disciples saying that this church today hasn't changed. The church of today needs a true restoration. So many want it to be left alone to it's traditional ways, just as the Jews wanted Jesus to leave them alone. Now we have a bought church building and land with traditions of starting times, and order of worship, and traditions of a capella, and suit and ties....anyone deviating against these MAN-MADE traditions are said to be change agents. It's not about a capella or instrumental music but worshiping God and Jesus in Truth and Spirit. Being decent and having order DOES NOT mean stoic and catching a nod while during the sermon. No Donnie, it is not Christ who would cause division in the church, but men like you. This concerned members site is living proof of that.


 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

It's not about the physical; it's about the doctrine of Christ

February 20 2011, 11:51 PM 

... and the apostles that the change agents are CHANGING, stupid. Who cares about suits and ties, beautiful church buildings, kitchen sinks and fancy toilets?

When the change agents teach doctrines and beliefs that they have learned and acquired from their denominational friends and neighbors, that's when soldiers of Christ need to arise and fight the good fight of faith.

When the change agents begin to teach that the purpose of baptism is simply to SYMBOLIZE obedience, RATHER THAN THAT IT IS IN ORDER TO RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, something is against what the New Testament teaches.

When the change agents teach that observing the Lord's Supper is more than commemorating the sacrifice and death of Christ on the cross, i.e., that it is about a different kind of "supper" -- a meal for the belly in the name of "fellowship one with another," then the Scripture is being rejected.

When the change agents teach that because of God's grace, "once saved, always saved" applies to New Testament Christians, then, it's time to question them (the change agents) as to just where they got that idea. (Of course, we know that the change agents have been mentored by proponents of such a doctrine.)

Dave, it is not about the church pews, the carpet, the order of worship. We NEVER bring up these conveniences because they do not matter at all in the discussion of what the change agents are doing that are damaging to the church. Rather, it is about their false teachings. If their goal is for the church of Christ to behave just like the denominational churches, why don't they and their followers like you quietly leave the church and simply join the denominations?

 
 Respond to this message   
Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Re: WANTED - DEAD or ***** - all "change agents"

February 21 2011, 12:07 PM 

Donnie,
You mentioned three, baptism, the Lord's Supper, and once saved always saved, as contentious between the members.
Nice smoke screen.
You didn't want to delve into praise teams, clapping, raising holy hands to God, and of course, saving the best for last, the preference of either vocal only or instrumental music. Donnie, as a wolf, you look greatly conspicuous in your sheep's clothing.

Those three that you mentioned aren't where the differences lie, and you knew that. Again, nice smoke screen. A good traditionalist needs a good smoke screen. Bravo. As many times that we have gone back and forth about the issues you have never heard me waver on those three. You try to group me in with those other issues, but you have failed again. I have never had a problem with them. Donnie, you believe that since you can be adamant about those three being right or wrong, then the instrumental music has to fit in the same way also.
Wrong! You know, from seeing me over at Faithsite, and here also, that I haven't disagreed with you on the three you mentioned.
Your fallacy is to believe that instrumental music should be treated the same way a the three you mentioned. If one thing that I have learned from Ken Sublett and possibly nothing else, is that it some men are biased against instrumental music or other issues, because it hasn't always be done in that manner, so it shouldn't be.
The total disregard of Biblical principle on the OTHER (not the three you mentioned) issues is apparent by you and Ken. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong, but rather what you feel comfortable with or what you have grown accustomed to.

 
 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.35

ME? Me?

February 21 2011, 12:36 PM 

Piney 12:1 Thou shalt smite the attacking viper close at thy heels.

Ben Sirach and all recorded evidence denies that.

http://www.piney.com/MuTempSirach.html

Life is sweet for the self-reliant and the worker,
...... but he who finds treasure is better off than both. Ecclesiasticus 40:18.

Children and the building of a city establish a man's name,
......but a blameless wife is accounted better than both. Ecclesiasticus 40: 19.

Wine and music gladden the heart,
......but the love of wisdom is better than both. Ecclesiasticus 40: 20.
The flute and the harp make pleasant melody,
......but a pleasant voice is better than both. Ecclesiasticus 40: 21.

How glorious you were, O Elijah, in your wondrous deeds! And who has the right to boast which you have? Ecclesiasticus 48:4.

You who raised a corpse from death and from Hades, by the word of the Most High; Ecclesiasticus 48: 5.

who brought kings down to destruction, and famous men from their beds; Ecclesiasticus 48: 6.
......who heard rebuke at Sinai and judgments of vengeance at Horeb; Ecclesiasticus 48: 7.
......who anointed kings to inflict retribution,
......and prophets to succeed you. Ecclesiasticus 48: 8.

O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help. Hosea 13:9

I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities?
......and thy judges of whom thou saidst,
............Give me a king and princes? Hosea 13:10

I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath. Hosea 13:11



 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: WANTED - DEAD or ***** - all "change agents"

February 22 2011, 1:32 AM 

Dave,

I was just waiting for you to mention them. And you certainly did.

Praise Teams: I do not recall the early New Testament church having a "Praise Team." Let's be honest, Dave. If the man-made "Worship Leader" (a.k.a. the N.T. "Aaron" who leads the congregants to God's HOLY presence) has a designated "Praise Team," what happens to the congregation? Oh, I know. The congregation is NOT the "Praise Team," one must deduce!!! Either one party is the "praise team" or it is not. In your sense, the congregation is NOT the "Praise Team." Aren't you confused, Dave?

Clapping: I can "clap" without making a scene. Know, Dave, that rhythmic clapping while singing is programmed joy. And programmed joy is fake and feigned. It is not spontaneous joy. On the other hand, when joy is spontaneous, it is real -- and you'll know it without question.

Raising Holy Hands: The verse says: "I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting" (I Tim. 2:8). If you're a woman, you may not be qualified to lift up hands. Why? Because the following verse indicates the role of the woman -- to adorn herself in modest apparel, etc. If you're a man, you may or may not qualify, depending on your hands being "holy." He must have "holy hands"; otherwise, he shouldn't even pretend to be holy.

Instrumental Music: Dave, I've been waiting for a long time now for you to show evidence or proof that God has ever issued a command to any group of His followers to worship Him with musical objects and devices. For you to opine or assume that God is "pleased" with inanimate, lifeless instruments for worship is totally unacceptable.

O.K., I'll give you the benefit that you do not follow the teachings of the "Change Agents" regarding baptism, the Lord's Supper, "faith only," etc., but that doesn't mean that the "change agents" are not teaching lessons they've learned and acquired from their denominational friends and neighbors.

Please do not ever worry about what I am comfortable with or not. I am very comfortable with what the New Testament, Christ and the apostles teach.

 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Again and Again

February 22 2011, 2:50 PM 

Donnie, you mentioned the following items, and I am offering rebuttal for each. Even though I am offering such rebuttal, I realize that it is falling on deaf ears.

#1 "Praise Teams: I do not recall the early New Testament church having a "Praise Team." Let's be honest, Dave. If the man-made "Worship Leader" (a.k.a. the N.T. "Aaron" who leads the congregants to God's HOLY presence) has a designated "Praise Team," what happens to the congregation? Oh, I know. The congregation is NOT the "Praise Team," one must deduce!!! Either one party is the "praise team" or it is not. In your sense, the congregation is NOT the "Praise Team." Aren't you confused, Dave?

#1 Rebuttal- No, it is mot me being confused, but you. The congregation is not the praise team, but neither is a single song leader. Why wouldn't you apply your above comments to a song leader? Because you simply PREFER a song leader over a praise team. Both lead and do the same job. A song leader leads the melody, the praise team covers all four parts. You believe a praise team to resemble "holy entertainment." Have you not seen a single song leader do the same? Certainly you have. Some sit, some stand. Sometimes you have women in the praise teams. If they elders allow it, then they are still in subject to the authority of the elders. You are already in trouble when you try and judge someone's heart by calling it "holy entertainment."

#2 "Clapping: I can "clap" without making a scene. Know, Dave, that rhythmic clapping while singing is programmed joy. And programmed joy is fake and feigned. It is not spontaneous joy. On the other hand, when joy is spontaneous, it is real -- and you'll know it without question."

#2 Rebuttal-What do you consider "a scene?" What you may consider "a scene", another person may see it as just the person's spirit overflowing with joy so much that they clap louder than you. Again, you are trying to judge where you don't have the right to. How do you know it is fake? You do not. On a bias, you ASSUME it to be fake. Your bias is because, again, you PREFER it to be soft clapping or no clapping at all.

#3 "Raising Holy Hands: The verse says: "I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting" (I Tim. 2:8). If you're a woman, you may not be qualified to lift up hands. Why? Because the following verse indicates the role of the woman -- to adorn herself in modest apparel, etc. If you're a man, you may or may not qualify, depending on your hands being "holy." He must have "holy hands"; otherwise, he shouldn't even pretend to be holy."

#4 Rebuttal-This may be the best by you Donnie. Why? Because it reeks of sarcasm. Not the part about women lifting holy hands, but the part about the hands of men being holy or not. Even if you were serious, are you the one who determines if his hands are holy? Also, if YOUR hands are holy, why don't you lift them? Do you not consider this a just request by this disciple?

#4 "Instrumental Music: Dave, I've been waiting for a long time now for you to show evidence or proof that God has ever issued a command to any group of His followers to worship Him with musical objects and devices. For you to opine or assume that God is "pleased" with inanimate, lifeless instruments for worship is totally unacceptable."

#5 Rebuttal-This has always been the easiest one Donnie. I don' opine that God is ""pleased" with inanimate, lifeless instruments for worship..." I opine that God is pleased with those who worship Him in the Spirit and in truth.
John 4
23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether it is a capella or vocal accompanied with instruments. That only deals with the WAY or MANNER in which we choose to show our worship. God has specified that we sing, and whether we use a piano, songbooks, overhead projectors, and PA systems to AID with the singing, the singing is still accomplished. You like your PA and songbooks Donnie, but you don't PREFER the piano. Good for you. Go to the traditional service and be happy, instead of going to both and criticizing the brothers and sisters from the contemporary service that don't PREFER to go vocal only.

 
 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.27

The SPIRIT or MIND is the only place SPIRITUAL worship can take place.

February 22 2011, 6:05 PM 

23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.

God IS Spirit--Holy or Wholly Spirit. You cannot worship God in your FLESH.
SPEAKING (exclusive of poetry or music) is WITH YOUR FLESH.
Singing AND Making melody is IN YOUR HEART (sprit) directed to GOD.

The sole function of Ekklesia / Synagogue is as a SCHOOL of Christ for DISCIPLES of Christ. Disciples do not sing, clap and gyrate without being EXPELLED for good.

If you read all of John 4 you will discover that God is not worshipped in HOUSES on a mountain in Jerusalem or in Samaria. You can only worship or give heed to god and His word in the PLACE of your own spirit as you pay attention to the WORDS of God. If you sing Twila Paris or Fanny Crosby then you are in fact, worshiping the writers or performers of the song. At the same time you are telling Christ "I will not use that which is written for my learning."

Stephen angered the Scribe and Pharisees: WASPS or hypocrites defined as "speakers, singers or instrument players.

Paul said that Christians worship IN THE SPIRIT rather than IN THE FLESH: Both are PLACES.

The REASON for worship in the PLACE of the human Spirit as the only place God LOOKS for worship is that EXTERNAL rituals are marks of the DOGS invading to "eat up" your living--a double meaning

True ISRAEL consists of Baptized believers (Gal 3) who have PUT ON CHRIST and are therefore likely to "cast out the musical minstrels like dung" and consigned the pipers, singers and dancers to the MARKETPLACE where they sold songs, sermons and the bodies of they young chorus leladers.

THE MARK OF THE ENEMIES OF ISRAEL Christ speaks through the PRIOPHETS and not through kings, priests or commanders of the army.

Thus saith the Lord God; Smite with thine hand, and stamp with thy foot, and say, Alas for all the evil abominations of the house of Israel for they shall fall by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence. Eze.6:11

For thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast clapped thine hands, and stamped with the feet, and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel; Eze.25:6

Behold, therefore I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and will deliver thee for a spoil to the heathen; and I will cut thee off from the people, and I will cause thee to perish out of the countries: I will destroy thee; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord. Eze 25:7


GOD'S TRUMPETS ARE WARNING: NOT POSSIBLE TO WORSHIP:

JER 66.1O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem, and blow the trumpet in Tekoa, and set up a sign of fire in Bethhaccerem: for evil appeareth out of the north, and great destruction.

Jer 6:9 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall throughly glean the remnant of Israel as a vine: turn back thine hand as a grapegatherer into the baskets.

Jeremiah 6:10 To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the Lord is unto them a reproach; they have no delight in it.


FOR BAPTIZED DISCIPLES, PAUL OUTLAWED ALL OF THE PERFORMING ARTS IN ROMANS 15 BY LEAVING THEM IN THE MEAT MARKETS IN ROMMANS 14.

Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. Phil 3:2

For we are the circumcision, which worship God IN THE SPIRIT a place
and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence IN THE FLESH. Phil 3:3 a place


If you worship INSIDE OF your own SPIRIT, the DOGS cannot take control of your FLESH to--as in all pagan musical worship and confessed by the VINEYARD (aka new wineskins) is forcing you to engage in a semi-literal sexual act with the leader.

God does not judge by what He SEES or what He HEARS (Isaiah 11). The seven spirits are all forms of knowledge. We have our sins remitted to hear the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord.

Dogs were the CYNICS they stamped, clapped and made noises like DOGS to attract their fellow homosexuals. It assuredly works in churches of Christ which have been INFILTRATED and DIVERTED into "theaters for holy entertainment" where theatron means to MAKE A SPECTACLE. True to all of history, about HALF run for their lives.

John identified the speakers, singers and instrument players as SORCERERS: liars and DOGS are lumped with the SORCERERS (any external stimulation) as fodder for the LAKE OF FIRE. Christ in Isaiah 30 gave us the SIGNS or MARKS of God driving His enemies into Hell: they will be wind, string and person instruments so the GODLY have time to FLEE BABYLON (Rev 17)

kun, both in Hom., the masc. more freq., gen. ku^nos, dat.ku^ni, acc.kuna, voc.
II. as a word of reproach, freq. in Hom. of women, to denote shamelessness or audacity
later, in a coarse sense, Ar.V.1402; h rhapsdos k.,

3. of the Cynics, areskei toutois kunn metamphiennusthai bion
Aresko outlawed in Romans 14 as all of the performing arts and crafts.

of offensive persons, compared to yapping dogs Matt 7:6; Phil 3:2
Pedarests


Matt 7.[6] "Don't give that which is holy to the dogs, neither throw your pearls before the pigs, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

We readers understand that a THERION is NOT an animal although they may be of the VIPER race we are warned to save ourselves from.

The Dog which hunts or the Beast--as proven by the Cynics--were old style praise singers seeking mates by their howling (CCM type of singing which were SIGNS to the rest of the group: that's why the "audience" doesn't really understand what they have been subjected to: taken captive.

Beast, like Dog, is not a quadraped animal but is defined as "A new style of singing or drama."

Therion includes:
Mousikê aei ti kainon THERIONthêrion tiktei
A. mousikos
B. aei always
C. kainos , esp. of new dramas, the representation of the new tragedies, (Aphrodisias dedicated to Aphrodite (ZOE); comedy, sexual love, pleasure, a woman's form of oath, Aster or Venus or ZOE.
Therion
D. Tikto mostly of the mother {Eve is Zoe: mother of all the LIVING.]
E. of Rhea [EVE] one of the zoogonic or vivific principles


LUCRETIUS ON CYBELE: THE MOTHER GODDESS: Demeter and Proserpine have become the heroines of a mystic drama; and their wanderings, and seizure, and grief, Eleusis celebrates by torchlight processions (Candle-light services). I think that the derivation of orgies and mysteries ought to be traced, the former to the wrath (orge) of Demeter against Zeus, the latter to the nefarious wickedness (mu/soj) relating to Dionysus; but if from Myus of Attica, who Pollodorus says was killed in hunting-no matter, I don't grudge your mysteries the glory of funeral honours.

You may understand mysteria in another way, as mytheria (hunting fables), the letters of the two words being interchanged; for certainly fables of this sort hunt
....after the most barbarous of the Thracians,
....the most senseless of the Phrygians,
....and the superstitious among the Greeks.

 
 Respond to this message   
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Great Examples of Clapping in the “WORSHIP Assembly”

February 23 2011, 1:54 AM 



#2 [Dave's] Rebuttal-What do you consider "a scene?" What you may consider "a scene", another person may see it as just the person's spirit overflowing with joy so much that they clap louder than you. Again, you are trying to judge where you don't have the right to. How do you know it is fake? You do not. On a bias, you ASSUME it to be fake. Your bias is because, again, you PREFER it to be soft clapping or no clapping at all. [sic]


Donnie's Response: Dave, a "person's spirit overflowing with joy" is not a scene. But cheerleaders doing their thunderous, popping noise from clapping at a basketball game is a scene. Another example of a scene is when a Pentecostal (Charismatic) Church member visiting a non-clapping congregation of the church of Christ does his boisterous clapping activity. I think that you do, but I have no difficulty in determining when cheerleading is a scene.

Know, too, that rhythmic clapping [a.k.a. programmed, rehearsed, non-spontaneous joy] is prevalent in Community-Church-Movement-influenced congregations of the church, not in conservative, mainline or mainstream congregations of the church. By the way, does your own home congregation practice programmed, rhythmic clapping while singing "Let Us Worship the Father"? Yes? No?

I have done a lot of research about clapping in the Bible.

I almost entitled this post: "Rhythmic Handclapping in Worship for Dummies." Or, "Rhythmic Handclapping in Worship Made Easy." But, no, since several passages from the Scripture are quoted -- and they're not fabricated guidelines.

Notice that "sin" or "sinful" is not ascribed to handclapping itself. So, what's the big deal? When does it become an issue or a problem (or possibly "sinful") especially when it was not a PRE-EXISTING condition within the congregation? [This reminds me of certain insurance policies -- Is the pre-existing condition (or illness) covered?]

  • II Kings 11 -- [ 11] And the guard stood, every man with his weapons in his hand, round about the king, from the right corner of the temple to the left corner of the temple, along by the altar and the temple. [12] And he brought forth the king's son, and put the crown upon him, and gave him the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; and they clapped their hands, and said, God save the king. [13] And when Athaliah heard the noise of the guard and of the people, she came to the people into the temple of the LORD. [14] And when she looked, behold, the king stood by a pillar, as the manner was, and the princes and the trumpeters by the king, and all the people of the land rejoiced, and blew with trumpets: and Athaliah rent her clothes, and cried, Treason, Treason.

  • Job 27 -- [19] The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not. [20] Terrors take hold on him as waters, a tempest stealeth him away in the night. [21] The east wind carrieth him away, and he departeth: and as a storm hurleth him out of his place. [22] For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand. [23] Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place.

  • Job 34 -- [37] For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

  • Psalms 98 -- [7] Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. [8] Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together.

  • Isaiah 55 -- [12] For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

  • Lament. 2 -- [15] All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth? [16] All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it.

  • Ezekiel 25 -- [5] And I will make Rabbah a stable for camels, and the Ammonites a couchingplace for flocks: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. [6] For thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast clapped thine hands, and stamped with the feet, and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel; [7] Behold, therefore I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and will deliver thee for a spoil to the heathen; and I will cut thee off from the people, and I will cause thee to perish out of the countries: I will destroy thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD.

  • Nahum 3 -- [18] Thy shepherds slumber, O king of Assyria: thy nobles shall dwell in the dust: thy people is scattered upon the mountains, and no man gathereth them. [19] There is no healing of thy bruise; thy wound is grievous: all that hear the bruit of thee shall clap the hands over thee: for upon whom hath not thy wickedness passed continually?

Sorry, there is not a single example of congregational worship clapping found in the New Testament. Even the word "clap" is nowhere to be found in the New Testament.

Donnie

 
 Respond to this message   
Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
72.154.251.218

More Than Clapping

February 23 2011, 9:38 AM 

Clapping is just one item that the New Testament does not mention in Christian worship practices. Others not mentioned include such worldly trappings as drama productions, skits, puppet shows, interpretive dance, choirs, praise teams, orchestras, musical performers, entertainers, and preachers whose "sermons" serve to regale the audience with amusing stories and anecdotes. Yet many congregations regularly incorporate various combinations of those items in order to make "worship" palatable and free from "boredom."

All those worldly trappings just mentioned were certainly available in one form or another to the early Christians, yet they did not utilize them. So why do many postmoderm congregations pollute their "worship" with them today? All those trappings smack (not smite) of the boisterous din in cheap theaters, dance halls, saloons, and pubs. Christians have been falsely led to believe that "worship" must parallel the hype and pizzazz of the entertainment world to be "revelant." Be warned: The more Christian worship mirrors wordly entertainment, fun, and games, the more that worship will be worldly and unacceptable to God. If we "worship" as does the world, we become a friend of the world and an enemy of God.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Romans 12:2 KJV).

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God" (James 4:4 KJV).

 
 Respond to this message   
Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Try Something Else Besides Judging Another Man's Heart

February 23 2011, 3:26 AM 


"Donnie's Response: Dave, a "person's spirit overflowing with joy" is not a scene. But cheerleaders doing their thunderous, popping noise from clapping at a basketball game is a scene. Another example of a scene is when a Pentecostal (Charismatic) Church member visiting a non-clapping congregation of the church of Christ does his boisterous clapping activity. I think that you do, but I have no difficulty in determining when cheerleading is a scene."

I thought that we were talking about worship? Why did you speak of a basketball game? What does it matter that people clap at basketball games? It doesn't. It is just another Donnie smoke screen. So you are going to say that if people clap as loud during worship as they do at a basketball game, then they are wrong>
Donnie, I don't have any difficulty in determining another man's heart. Why? I just don't do it. I will leave that up to you. If you deem someone clapping to be cheerleading and boisterous when the person who does it believes it to be meaningful worship, then you have wrongfully judged. I DO know that you have wrongfully judged people time and time again because you THINK you know their hearts. You don't prefer to clap so you put it down as cheerleading. What a woeful waste of your time Donnie.

 
 Respond to this message   
Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.17

Clapping and Hissing

February 23 2011, 1:25 PM 

Clapping of hands began as a way to RIDICULE the looser.

Even in applauding the WINNER of a contest we are in fact putting the looser down.

In religious spectacles (Lying wonders)music and applause was a way to HONOR the Alpha Male or tribal leader.

When tribes grew too large for effective co-operation (and inbred), they often became subdivided into smaller kinship groups (clans, sibs, gentes) which continued to regard each other as close allies. Government was exercised by individual chieftains assisted by councils of elders" (p. 26).

"In this fashion evey common tribal interest--the recurrence of the seasons, the increase of the food supply, successful hunting--was likely to become embodied

in some regularly repeated ceremony, which usually included group dancing, singing, and feasting.

Besides enabling men to express, and thereby to allay, ANGER and ANXIETY, such ceremonies also promoted tribal UNITY and strengthened the loyalty of the individual to TRIBAL TRADITION,

for the emotional excitement they aroused had the effect of breaking down the barriers between individuals

and thus fusing all tribesmen into a collective whole. Meanwhile, whole systems of magical devices were gradually elaborated." (Parkes,H. Bamfort p. 29)

"The development both of religion and of the arts can be traced back in a continuous line to the hunting era. The group ritual of the primeval tribesmen were the origin not only of all religious ceremonial, but also of the drama and of poetry and music, while magic gave birth to the visual arts." (Parkes, Henry Bamford, On Gods and Men, p. 30).

"Awed by the mysteries of his own spirit no less than by those of nature, primitive man was likely to attribute to divine influence

any abnormal emotional state, whether above or below the usual level. Medicine men customarily went into states of trance in which they were believed to be in communication with the gods,

and many tribes supposed lunatics and sexual deviants to be divinely possessed.


 
 Respond to this message   
Anonymous
(Login DavidGustafson)
207.157.10.118

Re: WANTED - DEAD or ***** - all "change agents"

March 2 2011, 2:31 PM 

WANTED - DEAD or ***** - all "change agents"
January 6 2011 at 1:05 PM N.J. Gold (Login NJGold)
from IP address 172.163.28.239

Colossians 1:16, King James Biblhttp://bible.cc/colossians/1-16.htm

For by him were all things created,
that are in heaven,
and that are in earth,
visible and invisible,
whether [they be] thrones,
or dominions,
or principalities,
or powers:
all things were created by him, and for him:
... Get It?

Yes, I get it. You are replacing God's word's with your own words.

God's word's

For by him were all things created,
that are in heaven,
and that are in earth,
visible and invisible,
whether [they be] thrones,
or dominions,
or principalities,
or powers:
all things were created by him, and for him:

Your words:

WANTED - DEAD or ***** - all "change agents"




 
 Respond to this message   
 
< Previous Page 1 2 Next >
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  
Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

Place your banner ad here.           See all banner ads

...ConcernedMembers.com ...About ...Links Library ...Sunday School in Exile ...Help Warn Others


FastCounter by bCentral

CM Visit Counter as of 6/25/2015
2,101,394

Site Visits Since 6/30/2015
page counter