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This Pretty Much Summarizes It All

January 8 2011 at 11:45 PM
Sonny  (no login)
from IP address

I was taking the time to read a few posts from the earliest days of this site. I was reading a post that has been locked on the ninth page titled "What Happened At Madison This Week" that had its last post on April 1, 2003.

I was reading the conversation between Brother Cruz and a Brother named Evan Duncan.

After a few civil posts from both, Brother Duncan who was visiting/worshipping at Madison offers to meet Brother Cruz in private after worship and have lunch.

He says on January 11, 2003 at 2:24 a.m., "I will be there on Sunday and would love to meet you. I have several friends there and they have pointed you out to me before so I can be on the look out for you. From what I have been told you don't handle confrontation too well and tend to slip out pretty quickly so if you want me to meet up with you how does downstairs in the front of the auditorium sound after church. I will be back by the soundroom if you care to meet up right after service. Can we maybe do lunch or something? I'm confident that you would be embraced with the love of the Lord that is so evident in the hearts of those at Madison. Whatcha think?"

Brother Cruz's reply on January 11, 2003 at 6:04 p.m. - "Let me add: CONFRONTATION is a favorite weapon of the change agents, the devil and his angels. Only they would love it. I NEVER do. Not for any other reason but because IT ACCOMPLISHES NOTHING! Do me one special favor. If you are truly for avoiding DISCORD, confront your own associates and POST ON THEIR FOREHEADS THE WORDS "DISCORD AND LOVING IT." This type of confrontation just might work."

I did not read any intentions of discord from Brother Duncan.

Evan tries again on January 11, 2003 at 9:01 p.m. - "I have tried with my first post for an open invitation but you seem to not have the courage to accept."

Here is a Brother Cruz's reply on January 13, 2003 at 11:52 a.m.:

"Sorry, Evan, Ive made it my personal choice and policy not to accept any open invitation. I thought that had been made clear and observed already. Please dont take it personally, as Im not into preferential treatment. If anyone is really interested in meeting me or saying hello to me personally, my convenient seating is stationary. Im only human and Im not knighted."

This says it all to me.

No willingness to talk. No willingness to pray. No willingness to listen in person. Hide behind a computer and site spreading strife and disregard Matthew 18, Galatians 6:1, etc.

Brother Cruz, this "POLICY" of yours is 100% UNSCRIPTURAL and UNGODLY. It has apparently continued indefinitely.

Brother Cruz, why are you not interested in following Scripture and Jesus' teaching for addressing and solving problems? Do you believe you HAVE helped your church family / congregation?

A disappointed Christian brother,


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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: This Pretty Much Summarizes It All

January 9 2011, 1:54 AM 


Thanks for the reminder. It's been so long ago, it seems as if. I was wondering what really brought you to this indictment: that my 'POLICY" is "100% UNSCRIPTURAL and UNGODLY." I do not have a policy. My prayer has been that the change agents in the brotherhood, as well as their followers [obviously you are one of their sympathizers], would come to a realization that their selfish desires and motives, destructive schemes, and deeds of discord are dividing the church, the bride of Christ.

Since quoted remarks comprise a significant portion of your initial post, taken out of context at that, I would like to respond in like manner to put matters in proper perspective for the sake of the readers, as well as you.

I don't know how Evan Duncan came to the conclusion in regard to my not being able to "handle confrontation too well." Oh, yes, he said it himself: "From what I have been told...." Hmmm. Well, let me get to my point. You did not quote from my response to Evan the paragraph you did not bother to quote:

You and the change agents have been using for a LONG, LONG TIME now this LOVE stuff to "cover a multitude of sins" as God's word says. It's time the Saddlebackers realize and admit that this strange fire in worship, that your MAN-APPOINTED WORSHIP LEADER AND HIS PRAISE TEAM have forcibly introduced to the assembly, is undeniably THE MAIN CAUSE, among many other things, OF THE SPLIT at Madison. DISCORD that the change agents have sown is SINFUL, not what the Holy Scripture has to say about the body of Christ that must be united and continue to be united. And you continue to assume that the Almighty God, not the devil, is loving the discord and YOUR LOVE for discord because you and others are more concerned about how to please yourselves with this feel-good MUSIC IDOLATRY that you call "worship" than what God intends for it to be.
You and other disciples of the change agents have the tendency to label everything and everybody as "WITHOUT LOVE" whenever there are those of us who point out the simple fact that indeed the change agents are the ones causing stife, discord and division in the church. The simple facts are stated in the above paragraph.

The following response from Ken Sublett explains it all even further:
Hay, Evan,

What we are trying to tell you is that events such as Jubilee and the smell wafting out of "christian" institutions was so overpowering that it seemed like the Antidote Hermes gave Ulysses so that when he went into Church (Kirke, Circe) "grove" he was not turned into a "beast person" by Kirke while MAKING LOVE to her. Some of us cleared our head, listened (very quietly while God is in His Holy Temple) and said: Whoa! Where we get that from. Sometimes you have to have Apollo (the inventor of musical harmony) let his locusts with scorpion stings (musical performers) punch you in a tender spot before the torpor gets blown away by the Navigating the Winds witchcraft band.

Now, you don't understand that but I needed to provide that as a "mystery" example to which you have not been inititated by "turning to Christ."

Next,even female scholars note that HARD DIALOG is the masculine thing Paul spoke of which has been perverted into "just preaching looovvve" and "notta, questing our 'celestial beings'."

Therefore, if you want to get where Donnie is AT maybe you should just walk up, shake hands and not offer too much LOOVVVEEE on the first date. He may not be into INTIMATE contact with the clappy-singy type but he might react quite manly if you just walk up and say: "Hey, you, prove to me that God isn't a Family of gods just like meee and thee." Or how about this: "Hey, mad guy, where you get that "Jesus wone judg by sight or sound" stuff?

Hey, Donnie, the light just came on: sounds like Ken is inspired, just like that Jesus guy, Twila and Keith. Try this;

"Jesus wone judge by sound or sight,
now, clap yo hans with all yo might,
sing it oveah heah (clap), clap it oveah ther (clappy, da clap)
Jes prov to Jesus that we don kare.

Repeat 666 times.

Sonny, I would encourage you to keep reading the various threads with an open mind. I don't believe you were ever "legalistic"; it's more like you've been converted to the Change Movement.

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(no login)


January 9 2011, 3:10 PM 


You have my apology for taking out of context. I did not realize. I thought you said verbatim that it was not your policy to sit down with your brother. I must have misread. I would be disappointed if this were your policy.


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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Apology

January 9 2011, 8:53 PM 


You purposely predefined "policy" for me with your remark:
No willingness to talk. No willingness to pray. No willingness to listen in person. Hide behind a computer and site spreading strife and disregard Matthew 18, Galatians 6:1, etc.
None of the above is true. Then, you condemned me with:
Brother Cruz, this "POLICY" of yours is 100% UNSCRIPTURAL and UNGODLY. It has apparently continued indefinitely.
And so that was "my" policy YOU conjured up????? Then, your subsequent remark was:
Brother Cruz, why are you not interested in following Scripture and Jesus' teaching for addressing and solving problems? Do you believe you HAVE helped your church family / congregation?
Again, none of that is true. I wouldn't be contributing to this website if I did not have any interest in following Scripture and Jesus' teaching. For years now, I've been addressing the problems and issues the change agents have created themselves to/in the church, the bride of Christ. In fact, strife, subversion, division!!!

The objective of this website has been to warn peaceful congregations of the signs that "the change agents are coming and beware." To be careful and not make the same mistakes.

And you are blaming me and condemning me for the strife, subversion and division in the church that the change agents have created themselves?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Just wandering and wondering at the spectacle of arrogance.

January 9 2011, 9:17 PM 

I am always amazed that humanoids try to place their personal opinions on the same level as those of God. I would say that it is not possible to ever come close to God in Christ with that attitude. Rubel Shelly speaks about TEAMING UP with the Spirit to get a new supply of words for our changed culture. The best I can do to imagine this is a mite being yoked to an elephant.

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
.....All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Preachers and elders get NONE:

Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
.....baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
.....and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Now, I confess that Jesus didn't say "Don't teach Jimmy Joes 'How I acquired spirituality' course.
For those wise enough to know that "no man knows the Father but the Son Who reveals Him" that means that "teach what Jesus COMMANDED to be taught means "what Jesus COMMANDED to be taught." You need a Phd in Phrenology to argue that point.

Christ spoke through the Prophets and Jesus fulfilled those prophecies fully. THAT is the spiritual teaching resource and a DISCIPLE of Christ would never try to whine their own will into a law.

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not:
.....for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words,
.....hath one that judgeth him:
.....the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him,
.....If a man love me, he will keep MY WORDS:
.....and my Father will love him,
.....and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Here is the basis of unity: Jesus does not even pray for the WORLD whose "imagination is only evil continually."

John 17:14 I have given them THY WORD;
.....and the world hath hated them,
.....because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world,
.....but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through THY TRUTH: thy WORD is truth.
John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world,
.....even so have I also sent them into the world.
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself,
.....that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone,
.....but for them also which shall believe on me through THEIR WORD
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,
.....that they also may be one in us:
.....that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

"Unity" is an evil cult: Jesus didn't pray for unity with a PERIOD. Unity is available only when we speak the same things which are "that which is written for our learning." (Rom 15)

Christ in Spirit defined the future REST both inclusively and exclusively.

Is. 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: (Spirit of Christ 1 Pet 1:11; Rev 19:10)
.....if they speak not according to this word, is because there is no light in them.

In Isaiah 50 He warned about the musical PLUCKERS

In Isaiah 55 He commanded us NOT to pay for the free water of the Word

In Isaiah 58 he outlawed seeking our own pleasure or even SPEAKING OUR OWN WORDS.

Paul in Romans 15 commanded the same thing for what he usually called "synagogue." If you cannot speak your own words that means "speak that which is written for our learning with one mind and one mouth."

Tell Jesus that HIS silence about not making a law is YOUR authority to make a law which everyone must obey or "cast themselves out of their own synagogues." He will tell you in Isaiah 30 that hell is prepared for God's enemies: the marks in sight and sound are wind, string and percussion instruments.

He will tell you in Revelation 18 that the slick speakers, singers and instrument players are MARKS that the lamps have been removed. John calls them sorcerers (as does all of the literature) and says that they have a reserved. place in the Lake of Fire.

Jesus has died, been resurrected and transfigured: He lives in the same state we will live when we are "changed." Jesus of Nazareth was made by God to be both Lord and Christ for our world. Christ prophesied and Jesus fulfilled the prophecies: these constitute the RESOURCES for our School of Christ. Disciples of Christ go to adult Bible Class and not to sing and clap and play in the toddlers class. If people cannot grasp that simple fact it is because they are not OF FAITH or OF TRUTH. N.J.Gold would say "predestinated" I would say that they have taken a usually-musical fork in the road and there is no turning back. They are now predestinated. Strong Delusions are the result and they are already destinated to performing the musical rituals which we have authority to HISS OUT OF OUR PRESENCE.

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Ken Sublett
(no login)

And Furthermore:

January 9 2011, 11:14 PM 

In the words of Paul, "fools love to be fooled." That is why they jump for joy at the chance to hand over their children's health care money to people with NO ROLE and NO DOLE who are as absurd as one who reads "He flew from the bear" as AUTHORITY that God commands them to FLY in a rocket. We can be just as DOGMATICALLY certain that people who pick verses like picking fleas off a dog are terminally ignorant or terminally evil.

Why we know that NO ONE ever sang any Biblical text including the Psalms.

Modern exegetes do not agree in this matter. For a time many would admit no metre at all in the Psalms. Davison (Hast., "Dict. of the Bible", s. v.) writes: "
.....though metre is NOT discernible in the Psalms, does not follow that rhythm is excluded".

This rhythm, however, "defies analysis and systematization". Driver ("Introd. to Lit. of O. T.", New York, 1892, 339) admits in Hebrew poetry
..... "no metre in the strict sense of the term".
..... Exegetes who find metre in the Psalms are of four schools,
..... according as they explain Hebrew metre by quantity, by the number of syllables, accent, or by both quantity and accent. (from The Catholic Encyclopedia)


Up to the Edict of Milan (AD 313), the psalms were interspersed with lessons.

By the time of Gregory I (circa 600), the Mass and Office had assumed a fixed shape and antiphonal psalmody (the chanting of a psalm alternately by two choirs) and responsorial psalmody (when the congregation responded to a psalm sung by a cantor) were institutionalized.The distinction between these types later faded.

A Cantor is a Chanter: The Jews cantillated which is Paul's SPEAK. Both singing AND melody (or grace) was IN THE HEART to specificially exclude the external meaning of Psallo which is a warfare word.

You could not sing TUNEFULLY nor could you accompany ANY of "that which is written for our LEARNING" (Rom 15 which defines the assembly inclusively and exclusively.)

In the 16th century, Protestant churches encouraged congregational psalm singing by adopting metrical versions in the vernacular. An important early translation was Clèment Marot's, the basis of the Calvinist psalter. A repertory of tunes came into being; these were set in a simple chordal style in collections which included Loys Bourgeois's complete psalter (1563), widely recognized as a standard version. Some later settings were more contrapuntal; Le Jeune and others dropped the tunes and composed what amounted to free motets.

So, why don't we lock up people who are willing to steal the church house of widows so they and satisfy the lust of the eyes and ears and LIE about God COMMANDING them to do it?

As I have said, Christ in Jeremiah 23 says that those who speak out of their own imagination rather than the Word of God are guilty of blasphemy.

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David Gustafson
(Login DavidGustafson)


March 2 2011, 3:34 PM 


Are you open to a discussion on IM over there at the "Ex-Church of Christ" website?


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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Ex-Church of Christ

March 2 2011, 4:26 PM 

Donnie if you go over to the Ex-Church of Christ or ANTI-church of Christ site, be very careful and do NOT quote any Bible. That will cause them to cast you, like ME, out of their synagogue. They assuredly will not tolerate any opposition whereas CM invites opposition.

If you want an answer to the Ex-Church of Christers click here.

There simply is no reason to expect that anyone with a degree from a once-Church of Christ Bible college to know anything about the Bible: they don't need to if they pick up a stack of sermon outlines and DARE anyone who feeds their face to question them.

David probably got fired and cannot get over it: it would be more salvic if he discussed
"that which is written for our learning." No human can enhance what Jesus died to make more certain.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Ex-Church of Christ

March 2 2011, 5:21 PM 

A few years ago, I tried posting something on the general board at the Ex-Church of Christ site. I simply stated my beliefs. Within a few minutes of my posting, someone responded. Did he invite me to have a civil discussion? No. His first words of "welcome" were, "You pathetic sack of [excrement, the 'S' word]!" Then he proceeded to lauch into a tirade of vicious hatred and hostility. I gathered that the guy was some kind of maniac and that any kind of "discussion" with such a creature would be a total farce.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

A "spirit" made him do it: me too!

March 2 2011, 5:58 PM 

Throughout the Bible when it seems that people have fallen into something opposed to the Word of God they THINK that they have a choice. In fact when they bad mouth the Word of God they smack God Himself and He does not "nurture" or ooze you into conversion by some Make Works Project by the senior pastor. He sends you strong delusions so that you believe a lie.

To often when preachers get their certificate they really believe the paper sold to him at a price too high. They get pumped up and begin to treat those who FEED HIS FACE as servants and messes with the elders or the old purple hair lady on the front pew and SHE makes sure that he understands that the food comes from her.

They almost always get fired and become ANTI something or another and tell the world WHY they were fired.

That is about the only Pseudo- discipline where you don't have to be responsible if you plane crashes or your patient dies because they never "learned you where to cut."

Both priests (heretics) and religious musicians (parasites) could hold on to their job if they burned a goat with lots of instrumental noise and TOLD you that the gods now loved you. However, for the rest of us if you cannot perform the work of a BS or a MD something crashes or dies and you get fired.

PARASITES: the Greek name for sacrificial musicians. When people wised up that the true God never needed sacrificed animals to live on, the musicians continued to DO ANYTHING to keep from having to do productive work

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Mar 2, 2011 9:37 PM

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(no login)

Re: Ex-Church of Christ

March 2 2011, 9:24 PM 

What goes around...comes around. wink.gif

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

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