Response to Norton's claimMarch 6 2011 at 9:40 PM
|Ken Sublett (Login Ken.Sublett)|
from IP address 188.8.131.52
3.06.11. Can you imagine a Church of Christ Thread where all of the false teachers are ANTI-church of Christ and where posted facts are not allowed. See more at
Norton, never coming to the knowledge of the truth says with approval at GCMF. "Never once do we find in the writings of the Early Church Fathers where they took it upon themselves to write that God had forbidden IM in the church. They cite no apostles or scripture, or anyone else as saying IM in church worship is a sin. Most of the writers being bishops, did what bishops are supposed to do. They gave their judgements on matters, not addressed by the Lord or the apostles. They said the Church did not use lifeless instruments in worship because they didn't want to be like the Jews and pagans. And of course they didn't use the "authority principle" against instruments, because that doctrine didn't appear until the Reformation. (Utterly False: Christ used it in the Prophets as the only resource for building up the church along with the apostles."
The Universal aim to be APOSTOLIC for all that we believe or practice.
To the law (no instruments in the Law of Moses)
nd to the testimony: (By the Spirit of Christ 1 Peter 1:11; Rev 19:10)
if they speak not according to this word,
it is because there is no light in them.
Isaiah 55 outlaws MERCHANDISING especially when it is a hostil attack on godly people. Christ in Isaiiah 58 outlawed "speaking your own words."
I think that pretty well sums up the ANTISM of the ANTI-non-Instrumental Church of Christ.
Grace demands that I tell you that ALL church fathers who wrote on instruments or singing REPUDIATE any thing that disturbs the command to "teach that which is written." There was never any congregational singing with organ accompaniment before the Reformation because even Simple Simon knew that NONE OF IT WAS METRICAL and could NOT be taught with music.
THEODORET" Theodoret of Cyrus or Cyrrhus c. 393 c. 457) 107 . Question: If songs were invented by unbelievers to seduce men, but were allowed to those under the law on account of their childish state, why do those who have received the perfect teaching of grace in their churches still use songs, just like the children under the law?
Answer: It is not simple singing that belongs to the childish state, but singing with lifeless instruments, with dancing, and with clappers. Hence the use of such instruments and the others that belong to the childish state is excluded from the singing in the churches, and simple singing is left." (Theodoret, a bishop of Cyrhus in Syria, Questions and Answers for the Orthodox)
SO, Norton and all of the ANTIS deliberately make up stuff because such hate is allowed or encouraged.
Norton is invited to post where where no one wins by censure and censoring
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Mar 9, 2011 5:59 PM|
The Early Church Fathers
|March 7 2011, 2:54 AM |
How could the early church fathers have cited anything against that which was NOT practiced, in the first place, in the assembly of the early New Testament saints?
No Instruments allowed for the Patriarchalists
|March 7 2011, 1:37 PM |
Mark of Grace Centered Magazine asks but wants to make verse 22 TRUMP verse 19-2-Do you think these verses have anything to do with the way we worship? Why or why not?
Thesis: 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Orgies is Komos: of the Kosmos Jesus WILL NOT PRAY for you. revel, carousal, merry-making, II. the ode sung at one of these festive processions, Chorus band of dancers and singers, row of reeds, i. e. Pan's pipe,
Antithesis: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Paul said that we worship IN THE SPIRIT as opposed to IN THE FLESH because you can see, hear, despise and smell the DOGS (Philippians 3) which were the "old style praise singers.
I doubt that any Liberal Arts theology type nor preacher school knows how to read the whole story.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
....Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations,
....wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
G5331 pharmakeia far-mak-i'-ah From G5332 ; medication (pharmacy), that is, (by extension) magic (literal or figurative):--sorcery, witchcraft.
G5332 pharmakeus far-mak-yoos' From pharmakon (a drug, that is, spell giving potion); a druggist (pharmacist) or poisoner, that is, (by extension) a magician: sorcerer.
THE WITCHES ARE
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians [Apollyon's muses or locusts]
....and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee;
....and no craftsman, [theater builders and stage managers]
....of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee;
....and the sound of a millstone [called a pipe, made a wistling sound to attract]
....shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
THESE ARE MUSES (LOCUSTS) OF APOLLO, ABADDON, APOLLYON
Witchcraft IN LATIN
Venfcium , Poisoning with "traditional" remedies
II. The preparation of magic potions, magic, sorcery: subito totam causam oblitus est: idque veneficiis et cantionibus Titiniae factum esse dicebat,
canto , nis, f. cano, lit. a singing, playing; hence meton. abstr. pro concr..
I. A song (rare; mostly ante-class.), Plaut. Stich. 5, 4, 25; 5, 5, 19; 5, 6, 8; Suet. Ner. 25; of birds, App. Flor. 2, p. 349, 11; Fronto ad Ver. 1 (cf. cantatio).
II. An incantation, charm, spell, Cato, R. R. 160: subito totam causam oblitus est, idque veneficiis et cantionibus Titiniae factum dicebat, Cic. Brut. 60, 217; App. M. 1, 10, p. 106, 27.
Speak in the church is the OPPOSITE of speaking Poetry or Music.
Dico 4. To describe, relate, sing, celebrate in writing (mostly poet.): tibi dicere laudes, Tib. 1, 3, 31; so, laudes (Apollo) Phoebi et Dianae,
Some have noted that there is ONE WARLOCK for every ten thousand witches: the religious musicians were must be MALE but in the case of David and the Levites "perform the role of women."
To CRUCIFY the FLESH is to the meaning of the cross: to shut down all acts of the flesh devoted to arousing passion or pride: outlawed by the meaning of "Laded Burden" (type of songs which arouse)
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christs have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Why Instruments in the School of Christ was and is WITCHCRAFT
|March 8 2011, 8:29 PM |
Those on the dole with no role can get dangerous if you speak where the Bible speaks: just "speaking where the Bible speaks" by copying directly from the Bible brings on the mockers.
Certainly, Christ in Isaiah 30 reveals the PATTERNISM of God repaying His enemies to the sounds of wind, string and percussion instruments as he is using themselves to drive themselves into hell.
John in Revelation 18 identifies the slick speakers, singers and instrument players as SORCERERS and consignes them to the Lake of fire.
Witchcraft is not mumbo jumbo: all musical terms speaking of enchanting or charming the ignorant out of the pants (or rants).
Ode does not mean hymn does not mean psalm: none include instruments unless named.
|March 9 2011, 6:43 PM |
Norton asks but will probably not get a response expecially with Hoyt's and other's approved spiritual abuse.
Schlier also noted that ado approximates to humnesai, psallein, and ainein and is used interchangeably with these three terms.
In Reply 107 of this thread I asked for some scholarly comment on the word "ado" or its tenses as used Revelation 5:9 and Revelation 15:4. I see from your information that "ado" does not imply the playing of instruments, but from reading the Revelation passages, it seems that neither would "ado" exclude the playing of instruments as accompaniment. Any comments?
Psallo never means to PLAY AN INSTRUMENT. If Christ wanted to include an instrument HE was pretty smart and did not depend on latter days.
DON'T BLASPHEME JESUS CHRIST THE HOLY SPIRIT: HE IS NOT IGNORANT AS IT IS SUPPOSED. IF HE WANTED TO GIVE A REMOTE HINT ABOUT PLAYING A HARP IN HIS SCHOOL OF THE WORD HE WOULD HAVE USED ONE OF MANY: To PLAY a HARP demands TWO WORDS or a COMPOUND WORD: Psallo NEVER means to "play a harp" but means to PLUCK with your fingers and NEVER with a plectrum--no guitar picks in psallo, no flutes, no keyboards, no drumbs. Why are none of your "thought leaders" slurping up the living of widows and willing to drive them weeping from their own group in order to add that which has universally amazed (like a train wreck) and repulsed the universal persona. Maybe they are PREdestined as the musical sorcerers in Revelation 18 HAD deceived the whole world once.
, A. play the lyre, S.Fr.60, Poll.4.58Pass.); melesi kai rhuthmois
Plu.2.713b ; sing, tous humnous LXX 2 Ma.1.30:Pass., Ph.1.626.
, A. singing to the harp, Aristid.2.310J.
, , on, A. of or for harp playing, ps. organon a stringed instrument, Ath.14.634f (of the magadis; andra psaltikn agathon a good harpist, Ael. ap. Ar.Byz.Epit.84.8.
, A. sing to the harp, LXX 2 Ch.5.13.
There is not a SINGING word in the whole bible meaning to "play a harp." Jesus warned that "doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge." Music in fact is the PREFERRED WEAPON "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." as a WITNESS with no urge to convert: the MANY in Paul's word are tasked to MAKE THE LAMBS DUMB BEFORE THE SLAUGHTER. CHRIST will be OUTSIDE the camp suffering the reproaches of those INSIDE the camp or Agora.
An ODE is NOT a Psalm or Hymn
And ODE set to music is:
Mouso- , A. furnish with power of song
, hosa phusis memouske,
2. to be set to music, ta di' ds . . mousthenta kroumata D.H.Dem.40, cf. Cat.Cod.Astr.8(3).188; to be filled with melody
, memoustai ta peri tn thalattan hup' ds tn petrn Philostr.Her.10.7.
Therefore an ODE cannoot include instruments: Mouso is the dedicated word never used in the bible.
Ode is the OPPOSITE of Lexis or Speak.
Paul's imperative command was to SPEAK in order to TEACH others.
The Ode and Plucking MUST be internal: in the heart.
The command is to SPEAK the ODES
, es, h(, (leg B) A. speech, OPPOSITE. Ode
, Pl.Lg.816d; l. praxis speech or action, Id.R.396c; ho tropos ts l. ib.400d; ta lexei dloumena orders given by word of mouth,
So NO ONE can obey the direct command to SPEAK that which is written in an external sense AND sing or ODE in an external sense at the time. That is why Jesus put worship IN THE HEART as a PLACE as opposed to Jerusalem as a PLACE. "IN THE HEART"identiifies a PLACE: A Spirit God MUST BE, cannot be otherwised but to worship IN THE PLACE of the human spirit made into A holy spirit at baptism
If someone commanded you to "sing IN the bathtub" you would have a dozen "doctors of the law" debating WHERE you were to sing.
An Ode is opposite to SPEAK which is the direct command.-d , h(, contr. for aoid, OPPOSITE. lexis,
LOOK AGAIN AT PAUL'S USE OF PARALLELISM: his string of "BUTS" applies to the present participles connected by AND in the PLACE of the heart or spirit.
Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, HAVING every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Holding harps OF GOD means to apprehend the Word of God: no one PLAYS instruments:
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Saying is leg3
5. l. ti to say something, i. e. to speak to the point or purpose, to explain more fully,
9. to boast of, tell of, Xen.: to recite what is written, labe to biblion
(a). To read out, read aloud, recite (esp. freq. in post-Aug. authors): convocatis auditoribus volumen legere, etc.
If the doctors of the law KNEW or were willing admit the universal patternsim for the Church of Christ from the wilderness onward the YOU would not feed THEIR face to give them time to betray your trust:
Acts 15:21 For Moses
of old time
hath in every city
them that preach him,
in the synagogues
every sabbath day.
The apostles affirmed this as the approved PATTERNISM in the Jerusalem council: Paul affirmed this patternism in 2 Corinthians 3. When Paul wrote letters his direct command was to READ these letters: what what stretch of delusion do men ride tandem on the backs of widows and honest working people to scramble the letters and just fabricate their own sermons: Jesus identified the sons of the Devil with "they speak on their own."
THATS the commanded, exampled and necessary inference of Jesus Christ IF you grasp that church is A School (only) of the Word (only) of Christ in the prophets and apostles for spiritual content.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Mar 9, 2011 9:09 PM|
Re: Response to Norton's claim
|March 10 2011, 6:20 PM |
Not even civil society tolerated what "worship" centers love:
-Plat. Laws 936c There shall be no beggar in our State; and if anyone attempts to beg, and to collect (synagogue, Ekklesia) a livelihood by ceaseless [making Poieo meter, hymns] prayers, the market-stewards shall expel him from the market, and the Board of city-stewards from the city, and from any other district he shall be driven across the border by the country-stewards, to the end that the land may be wholly purged of such a creature. If a slave, male or female, do any injury to another man's goods,
For those seeking to escape captivity under those Paul outlawed, I have added links ot word definitions and to Greek literature which makes out conclusions confirmed.
poi-sis , es, h(, A. fabrication, creation, production, mimsis represent by means of art, dramatic poetry, bombastis songs
Lactantius The Origin of Evil and Idolatry
Men are possessed with so great a fondness for representations, that those things which are true are now esteemed of less value: they are delighted, in fact, with gold, and jewels, and ivory.
The beauty and brilliancy of these things dazzle their eyes, and they think that there is no religion where these do not shine.
And thus, under pretence of worshipping the gods, avarice and desire are worshipped. For they believe that the gods love whatever they themselves desire, whatever it is, on account of which thefts and robberies and murders daily rage, on account of which wars overthrow nations and cities throughout the whole world.
Therefore they consecrate their spoils and plunder to the gods, who must undoubtedly be weak, and destitute of the highest excellence, if they are subject to desires. Lactanius, Divine Institutes, Book II. Of the Origin of Error.
Hell is prepared for self-speaksers, self-singers and ALL instrumentalists
|March 15 2011, 1:27 PM |
From the Golden Calf: The Canaanites were under Assyro-Babylonian dominance from 3000 to 1700 BCE. Even by circa 1400 BCE, their influence was still so great that all correspondence with Egypt and the Pharaoh was conducted in Babylonian, and the name of the moon-god Sin formed the basis for the Canaanite names Sinai and the wilderness of Sin (ERE, Vol. 3, p. 183). The hand of Sin was seen in the cause of Catatonia or madness in children - hence, lunacy is associated with this deity (ibid., p. 527). Sin moon-god of Harran was also worshipped at Sam'al at the foot of Mount Amanus (ibid., Vol. 2, p. 295). Sin was the Baal of Harran mentioned in the correspondence at the time of Sennacharib, Esarhaddon and Ashurbanipal. Sargon (722-706 BCE) confirmed the exemption Harran enjoyed from taxes as the city of Sin (ibid.). Nabonidas last king of Babylon (555-539 BCE) rebuilt the temple of Sin at Harran. Sin became identified with Be'el-shamin the owner of the sky from the Syrian dominance at Harran combining the Syrian god with the ancient moon-god. This deity was identified with Zeus by the Greeks from Phoenicia and Palmyra and elsewhere enjoying their patronage and spread from Mesopotamia into Armenia. Ultimately, he became identified with Anu, Lord of Heaven of Babylon (ibid., Vol. 2, p. 295).
From the earliest times (c. 4000 BCE), there were triads formed of Enlil, Anu and Enki. The second triad was formed from Ur, moon-god of Ur, Utu sun-god of Sippar, and Nana goddess of Erech (ibid., p. 296). The moon-god of Ur can be identified with Sin. The Semitic term Bel was used among the Babylonian Semites derived from Baal in the same sense as it was used by the other Semites and in addition used it as master or lord (ibid.).
The Israelites rose up in PLAY or musical idolatry at Mount Sinai: the trinity was Osiris, Isis and Hathor:
-Gallus , i, m., = Gallos Strab., 2. (Acc. to II. A., of or belonging to the priests of Cybele; hence, transf.) Of or belonging to the priests of Isis, Gallic: turma, the troop of the priests of Isis, Ov. Am. 2, 13, 18.
-turma Iliae, id. C. S. 38: cristatae exercitus. Claud. III. Cons. Hon. 133; id. in Ruf. 2, 343: Alexan dri, Plin. 34, 8, 19, § 64: feminea, Ov. P. 4, 10, 51: Gallica, i. e. of priests of Isis, id. Am. 2, 13, 18.
-Femineus , a, um, adj. id., II. Transf., with an accessory notion of contempt, womanish, effeminate, unmanly: vox, Quint, 1, 11, 1; cf. Ov. A. A. 3, 286: pectus, Ov. M. 13, 693: amor praedae, Verg. A. 11, 782: lunae femineum et molle sidus, Plin. 2, 101, 104, § 22
Gal 5:12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! CHRYSOSTOM IDENTIFIES those who drive you out of your homeland:t by lying about the Spirit OF Christ universal condemnation of music a the MARK of telling God to "Shut your face."
For they had compelled them to abandon their own fatherland, their liberty, and their heavenly kindred, and to seek an alien and foreign one; they had cast them out of Jerusalem which is above and free, and compelled them to wander forth as captives and emigrants.....But in truth neither the eye nor any other part of us is to blame, but the depraved will only.
But if you will not allow this, why do you not mutilate the tongue for blasphemy, the hands for rapine, the feet for their evil courses, in short, the whole body?
For the ear enchanted by the sound of a flute hath often enervated the soul; and the perception of a sweet perfume by the nostrils hath bewitched the mind, and made it frantic for pleasure. Yet this would be extreme wickedness and satanic madness. Note 1.
ALL musical terms speak of enchantment or SORCERY: why else would people LIE about the Bible, lie TO God and lie ABOUT God? A note reads:
Note 1: Paul wishes that the circumcisers would not stop with circumcision but go beyond it to mutilation (make themselves eunuchs) like the priests of Cybele. A severe irony and similar to the one in Philip. iii. 2, 3, where Paul calls the boasters of circumcision the Concision. Self mutilation was a recognized form of heathen worship especially in Pessinus in Galatia and therefore quite familiar to the readers. Thus by their glorying in the flesh the Galatians relapsed into their former heathenism,--Schaff and Lightfoot. The Revised Version here has, would even cut themselves off, the American Committee has, would go beyond circumcision.G.A.]