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Rocnar
(no login)
98.81.92.189

Re: Who Are You?

April 18 2011, 6:47 PM 

Dr. Crump, who are you to condemn instruments when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, who are you to deem using instruments as sinful when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, have you ever considered that you are going out on a limb?

Perhaps you should be silent where God has not spoken.

BTW, that advise came from a good COC friend that I RESPECT.

 
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Rocnar
(no login)
98.81.92.189

Re: Who Are You?

April 18 2011, 7:40 PM 

Go ahead and make you jokes. My PC was not responding to my frantic pounding.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.242.7

Re: Who Are You?

April 18 2011, 11:49 PM 

Rocnar must have been really upset to pound so much on the "Respond!" button. All it takes is just one click. Discussions about instrumental music DO make some denominationalists and denominational sympathizers lose their cool; they suffer temporary insanity. Just calm down and be patient. happy.gif

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Ken Tell Us Another Good Fairytale

April 18 2011, 12:46 PM 

One about Zeus, or about the flute pan-god. If you don't have time nor the inclination for either of those oldies but goodies, just conjure up anything. You do so well at just making it up as you go anyway.

 
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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.17

Some Zeus

April 18 2011, 12:56 PM 

Acts 17:30 And the
times of this ignorance God winked at; [ignorance means ignorance]
but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day,
in the which he will judge the world in righteousness
by that man whom he hath ordained;
whereof he hath given assurance unto all men,
in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Pausanias Description of Greece and the religion of the Marketplace where Jesus CAST the pipers, singers and dancers as well as the collection plates.

[1.1.4] The Athenians have also another harbor, at Munychia, with a temple of Artemis of Munychia, and yet another at Phalerum, as I have already stated, and near it is a sanctuary of Demeter. Here there is also a temple of Athena Sciras, and one of Zeus some distance away, and altars of the gods named Unknown

[1.2.5] One of the porticoes contains shrines of gods, and a gymnasium called that of Hermes.
This fits the Abomination of Desolation which forced moral Jews to flee Jerusalem to be replaced by Kenites or Cainites.

In it is the house of Pulytion, at which it is said that a mystic rite was performed by the most notable Athenians, parodying the Eleusinian mysteries.

But in my time it was devoted to the worship of Dionysus. This Dionysus they call Melpomenus (Minstrel), on the same principle as they call Apollo Musegetes (Leader of the Muses). The MELODY word is MELOS and Psallo is NEVER used of music.

Here there are images of Athena Paeonia (Healer), of Zeus, of Mnemosyne (Memory) and of the Muses, an Apollo, the votive offering and work of Eubulides, and Acratus, a daemon attendant upon Apollo; it is only a face of him worked into the wall.

After the precinct of Apollo is a building that contains earthen ware images, Amphictyon, king of Athens, feasting Dionysus and other gods.

The Abomination of Desolation was music and perversion worship of Zeus and Dionysus.

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Teaching the commandments of m(K)en!

April 19 2011, 10:27 AM 

Dave mentions Ken quoting about Zeus from a non-biblical source...so Ken quotes about Zeus from a non-biblical source. happy.gif

Remember that Ken teaches that it is wrong to sing EVEN VOCALLY to God. Under the title......"When A Congregation Elects To Use Instruments Of Music In Its Worship" Ken states on March 8, 2011 at 11:23 a.m. in his concluding paragraph for the first sentence........"It was unlawful for the godly people to make vocal or instrumental rejoicing which was a style making School of the Word impossible." Ken is saying it is unlawful for godly people to make VOCAL rejoicing to God!

Folks, Ken is a false teacher! He is teaching the commandments of m(K)en! sad.gif

Fred Whaley

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Doesn't Even Make Good Common Sense

April 18 2011, 4:27 PM 

William,
You said that God doesn't address hundreds of other non-spiritual items (you mentioned a PA system as one of them). William, the reason I know that you really could care less about whether you are doing what God wants is because the article that you posted for reading the other day by Paul Smithson ("He Didn't Say Not To") mentions that God's silence is non-permissive, YET you counter that with saying that what is not mentioned is ok. See what I mean William? You are good about hanging onto what sounds good today, but ready and more than willing to change your mind tomorrow. Get into politics and out of Christianity if that's your angle. You aren't in this for the Truth. You are in it to be right, even with the high stake being the forfeiture of your very own soul.

Tell me to, and again, how you can back your claim of musical instruments conflicting with NT Scripture? You cannot do that. The command is to SING, we can do that with our voices alone or accompanied. That was a false statement...period. You say that our simple voices in song is sufficient? Then why do we need a PA system? We don't, but we PREFER one. It matters not the size of the crowd either. Churches of thousands upon thousands have sang without a PA system. We PREFER to amplify, so we do. Again, if vocal was ONLY inferred, then why not have God say that it iis wrong....instead of you? But hey.......people listen to men over what God says all the time. They never succeed either.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

You worship Zeus???

April 18 2011, 4:30 PM 

Ken,
Why would you ever worship Zeus? I knew that you had a lot of it wrong, but I did think you worshiped the One and Only God. Don't tell me that you've gone off the deep end???

 
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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.39

You cannot ASSIST Jesus Christ

April 18 2011, 7:25 PM 

When you tamper with God's Word he sends strong delusions so you believe a lie and are damned. A Disciple has no need to ASSIST God.

2Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty,
......not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
......but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every mans conscience
......in the sight of God.
2Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds
......of them which believe not,
......lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ,
......who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
?
2Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves,
......but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus sake.
2Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness,
......hath shined in our hearts,
......to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God
......in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels,
......that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Vessels are of clay and not gold: God cannot use your talent.

Opposite. organon, Democr. A. instrument, implement, tool, for making or doing a thing, S.Tr.905, cf. athrobrtos; logkhopoin organa polemika hopla te kai organa Pl.R.374d, cf. Lg. 956a ; o.engine of war,
3. musical instrument, Simon.31, f.l. in A.Fr.57.1 ; ho men di' organn eklei anthrpous, of Marsyas, Pl.Smp.215c ; aneu organn psilois logois ibid., cf. Plt.268b ; o. polukhorda Id.R.399c, al.; met' ds kai tinn organn

sophos , , on,
A. skilled in any handicraft or art, clever, harmatlatas s. Pi.P.5.115, cf. N.7.17; kubernts A.Supp.770; mantis Id.Th.382; oinothetas S.OT484 (lyr.); of a sculptor, E.Fr.372; even of hedgers and ditchers, Margites Fr.2; but in this sense mostly of poets and musicians,


 
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Da ve
(no login)
69.59.112.185

You Mess with Fire, You Get Burned.....Again

April 18 2011, 8:47 PM 

Ken,
When you say...."When you tamper with God's Word he sends strong delusions so you believe a lie and are damned."

Would you call that your self-fulfilling prophecy? Aren't you the one who says to speak that which is written, but then tries his best to infuse Greek mythology and believe that the Word isn't complete and strong enough, so you believe that you need to add the book of Enoch?
You are in good company here at concernedmembers for sure. They accuse someone of what they are actually doing themselves. Ken, you should have been around when they translated the KJV. You were born too late. You would told them how to do it right, ya think?
Why do you think that you got banned at Faithsite? Why do you believe you continue to get banned at the Grace Forum? Because you believe that you are THE present day vicar of God!! Pope Ken? No, you need your own title for you don't like the Catholics either. You don't like the church of Christ....it just isn't good enough for you anymore either. You pretty much don't like any church, do you? Are you your own cornerstone? You certainly can't lay a claim to the one that Jesus died for. You are an entity unto thyself. To him who has an ear, listen to what the Lord has to say through the apostle Peter.
1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

Ken, you don't even LIKE people. How could you when you believe that you're the lone bastion and pillar of the Christian faith? No one is faithful enough for you.
You have failed miserably, for you can't even read the above passage without feeling deep remorse. Without love Ken, you are nothing!
Check out 1 Corinthians 13 if you don't want to take my word for it.
That is why you and this site has failed altogether. You and this site shows no love for the brothers that they disagree with. You gents are always ready to condemn, but never build up.

Donnie, keep waiting for your apology from Madison too. I am sure that it should be coming any day now. Don't you dare fret it.

 
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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.49

Re: You Mess with Fire, You Get Burned.....Again

April 18 2011, 9:31 PM 

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What part of that do you not understand?
If the message from God is to "Teach that which has been taught" and if you want to sing "use one mind and one mouth speaking that which is written for our learning."

Anyone who can say that that is not binding on them simply is not yet a disciple.
Christ repudiated all of the sacrificial system in the prophets specificially using musical instruments as the MARK of those who do not intend to obey His commands.

If Jesus Christ in person did not command you to sing and make melody WITH a harp then based on the understanding of all pagan religious music and musicians the performers (hypocrites says Jesus) "set their lies to melodies to deceive the simple." You will find no recorded history which does not see religious musicians as vile and gender-bent. That is what observers see when the singy-clappy boys begin to perform: that's why up to 1/2 of the owners cast themselves out of their own synagogue.

It would help if you didn't try to interpret me.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.248.162

A Different Kind of "Who Are You?"

April 18 2011, 9:38 PM 

Who are you to assume that instruments are acceptable in Christian worship, when the New Testament says nothing to that effect?

Who are you to ADD instruments when God explicitly tells us to SING and make melody in our hearts?

Who are you to assume that, if we want something MORE in a command from God, yet He is silent about it, then His silence is permissive?

Who are you to assume that, because God explictly tells us to SING and make melody in our hearts but but stops there, then He grants "silent" permission to make melody on instruments as well?

Who are you to change any one of God's commands from what He explicitly states therein?

Who are you to go above and beyond the boundaries of any one of God's commands?

Who are you to assume that using instruments in Christian worship pleases God, when the New Testament says nothing to that effect?

Who are you to assume that instruments are necessary to "aid," "enhance," and "accompany" the human voice to make it more effective in praising God, when the New Testament says nothing to that effect?

Who are you to use "God didn't say not to" to justify instruments, when that philosophy is not found anywhere in the New Testament?

Who are you to manufacture a taboo that says condemning instruments is a sin, when the New Testament says nothing to that effect?

Who are you to assume that whatever man thinks is "right" in worship, then God agrees?

Who are you to assume ANYTHING about God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Gospel, worship, and salvation that is not written in the New Testament?

 
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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.49

Pretty spooky

April 18 2011, 10:30 PM 

Make DISCIPLES and teach them what I COMMANDED TO BE TAUGHT.
This as the SOLE RESOURCE is stated over and over and over.
Those tiltable toward instruments stand up before all of the "scholars" and say he NEVER commanded what was to be taught: never.

Now, I believe that when Jesus said that "doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge" and Paul said God left the Word in clay vessels meaning those of low standing and apt to be despised and rejected by men.

And the manufacturing plant of preachers with no role and no dole unless they teach that which has been taught.

I think you can assume that Satan is pretty slick, turns his ministers into angels (evangelists) of light, and the massed multitudes (beasts) follow them like Mary's little lambs, that we are watching something of enhanced Biblical Proportions and--if possible--will lead astray the very elect (church members).

That's why--as Jesus warned in John 17--when you speak or post the Words of Christ in context, they will ban you and would hurt you really bad if they could get their hands on you.

Their agents do the dirty work and those speaking on their own (sons of the Devil) have agreed not to respond.

Revelation 17-18 defines it all in great detail: they are sorcerers or witches all of whom used musical instruments to fool the fools that the gods spoke through the instrument.

 
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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.49

Pretty spooky

April 18 2011, 10:30 PM 

Make DISCIPLES and teach them what I COMMANDED TO BE TAUGHT.
This as the SOLE RESOURCE is stated over and over and over.
Those tiltable toward instruments stand up before all of the "scholars" and say he NEVER commanded what was to be taught: never.

Now, I believe that when Jesus said that "doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge" and Paul said God left the Word in clay vessels meaning those of low standing and apt to be despised and rejected by men, He warned the discerning NEVER to follow or believe or enable a skilled rhetorician who is hired because of his pleasing style of poetic rhetoric which is one of the marks of the effeminate.

And the manufacturing plant of preachers with no role and no dole unless they teach that which has been taught.

I think you can assume that Satan is pretty slick, turns his ministers into angels (evangelists) of light, and the massed multitudes (beasts) follow them like Mary's little lambs, that we are watching something of enhanced Biblical Proportions and--if possible--will lead astray the very elect (church members).

That's why--as Jesus warned in John 17--when you speak or post the Words of Christ in context, they will ban you and would hurt you really bad if they could get their hands on you.

Their agents do the dirty work and those speaking on their own (sons of the Devil) have agreed not to respond.

Revelation 17-18 defines it all in great detail: they are sorcerers or witches all of whom used musical instruments to fool the fools that the gods spoke through the instrument.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 67.142.130.49 on Apr 18, 2011 10:34 PM


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
98.87.22.78

Statement of Defiance for Proponents of Musical Instruments

April 18 2011, 10:38 PM 

Given all that has been said about the unscriptural act of implementing instrumental music in Christian worship, those who are bent on having instruments might as well stamp the following "Statement of Defiance" on themselves:

STATEMENT OF DEFIANCE FOR PROPONENTS OF MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS

We follow the New Testament (except when it clashes with our personal preferences and desires).

We do not believe that 1 Cor. 4:6 literally means to stay within strict bounds of Scripture as far as God's commands are concerned. We believe that changing God's commands is NOT sinful, as long as the results bring US joy and hurt no one. Therefore, ADDING instruments to God's command to sing and make melody in our hearts is not sinful, as far as WE are concerned.

We justify instruments with "God didn't say not to." We believe that anything God does not condemn by name is fair game.

We believe that God's "silence" about anything is permissive.

We believe that if God thought instruments were sinful, He would tell us straight out and not be so "mysterious." We expect God to conform to OUR way of thinking. Therefore, if God tells us to sing but does not condemn instruments as such, then we WILL use them.

We require a specific, negative statement from God if He wants us to stop using instruments. Unless God says, "Thou shalt not worship Me with musical instruments," we WILL use instruments as much as we desire.

We believe that aiding, enhancing, and accompanying our voices with musical instruments is pleasing to God. We don't need the New Testament to back us up about that. We believe that God approves of anything and everything that makes US feel good and happy in worship.

We believe that God wants us to worship Him in any way that pleases US.


 
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Rocnar
(no login)
98.81.93.235

Re: Statement of Defiance for Proponents of Musical Instruments

April 19 2011, 1:08 AM 

Dr. Crump, if a man speaks for God where God has not spoken, he is not above speaking for his peers as well.

I disagree with your logic but we already knew that.

Duty calls so I will be away for a couple of months.

Perhaps you and Ken can entertain each other.

Peace.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Traditions of Men vs. Traditions of the Apostles

April 18 2011, 11:42 PM 

Dave,

I was hoping that you would limit the discussion to the specific topic above as there are numerous components involved in the study of instrumental music. But you ended up presenting your dissertation on "musical instruments."

I asked you a simple question regarding traditions: "There is no command, example or implication in the New Testament that inanimate and lifeless musical devices are to be used in the assembly of NT saints. Isn't that the tradition of Christ and His apostles?"

Your response was: "NO!!!"Absolutely NOT!"

Really, Dave?

It's been proven historically that the mechanical operation of musical devices and objects in the ASSEMBLY (gathering of NT saints) was not practised by the first century Christians. Otherwise, historians would have recorded such a "SIGNIFICANT" practice -- a MONUMENTAL issue in Christendom today. Can you think of other instances and events that actually occurred in the apostolic era and immediately after but were not recorded by the ever-so-forgetful historians and early church fathers?

Go right ahead and defend the man-made tradition of the "veneration of saints" since the Scripture does not say "NOT TO." Or the man-made tradition of the worship of the Virgin Mary because the Bible does not specifically object to such form of adoration.

Your assertion that the Scripture "certainly DOES NOT condemn" amounts to saying that "God authorizes that which the Scripture "DOES NOT SAY 'NOT TO.'"

In order for this discussion to be fruitful, you must be willing to accept the fact that churches of Christ DO NOT PRACTICE instrumental music in their assemblies. Otherwise, you are misleading the world by proclaiming the falsehood that the church of Christ of which you claim to be a member plays and operates musical devices in the assembly of saints. Be willing to admit that your OWN congregation DOES or DOES NOT mechanically operate any of those inanimate musical devices. Which is it???????

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

The Church Police & The Foul Stench Coming from this Site

April 19 2011, 12:44 AM 

Donnie, you said..."Your assertion that the Scripture "certainly DOES NOT condemn" amounts to saying that "God authorizes that which the Scripture "DOES NOT SAY 'NOT TO.'""

When you condone the use of a PA system, which isn't specifically authorized, you do the same.

When you have the chance, Donnie, tell Bill Crump about the story of ASSUMING.
Ok?

You and William and Ken keep to your ways and staying away from God's Ways. Continue to try and tear down these churches that you don't agree with, even the very church that you attend.
There has always been a foul stench that rises from this site. I finally know where it comes from. It is a sulfur smell.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liarsthey will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death

It is a curse that you have so well fought for. The one disclaimer that makes me laugh about this site.
""No one here will admonish anyone for worshipping God in what ever manner they believe to be correct."

That is an outright lie Donnie. Many have came here telling that they worship differently and they truly believe that their worship is acceptable.....and maybe you haven't admonished them as you said. You only merely just slandered them, reviled and accused them of being lost......definitely not an admonishment. You just skip the admonishment and go straight to judgment.
William, now ask me again about what I am ASSUMING.
I assume nothing. I KNOW that this site is evil and the lot of you are wolves in sheep's clothing. I also know, and many more know of your sanctimonious arrogance. It is why when people get to know you that they find out the pure definition of a narcissist.
Ken, about ruffling your feathers......don't like to get down to your level of degradation but nothing that comes out of your mouth is really worthwhile....and you needed to hear it. Ken, just wonder since no one else is worthy of your cult other than you....can one person actually constitute a cult.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Right: When a site discusses IM, it stinks; so did Faithsite?

April 19 2011, 2:46 AM 

Dave,

Be careful about judging those who are hell-bound by your standards, especially the body of Christ. The church of Christ does not practice IM in the assembly -- you should know that by now -- and the body of Christ is NOT staying away from God's ways.

The PA system is not a musical instrument. A kindergarten knows that. Neither is a songbook, PowerPoint, projector. Let me know when you have invented a set of PA systems that create music or simulate a music device.

Reserve the expression "wolves in sheep's clothing" to the change agents operating in the brotherhood.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.204.252

Re: Right: When a site discusses IM, it stinks; so did Faithsite?

April 19 2011, 9:49 AM 

Dave seems to imply that "God's ways" include instrumental music in Christian worship. I don't recall having seen that explicitly written in the New Testament. I guess that's of no concern to the change agents. Not only does Dave manufacture taboos (that it's a "sin" to condemn instrumental music), but he would also have us believe that his ways are God's ways. I think we'll continue to follow the New Testament as written. Apparently God's true ways are really NOT Dave's ways. If they were, Dave wouldn't be desperately lobbying for instrumental music in Christian worship.

We had these and many other discussions about IM at FaithSite. There, Dave was in seventh heaven among the numerous liberals; but here, he's miserable and says this site "stinks." Dave does have his buddies, Fred and Rocnar, to comfort him.

BTW, I see that Dave is still driving his useless, one-track train (get it?) about PA systems. wink.gif

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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