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The Truth Hurts Sometimes

April 19 2011, 12:57 AM 

Donnie.....last word said "In order for this discussion to be fruitful, you must be willing to accept the fact that churches of Christ DO NOT PRACTICE instrumental music in their assemblies."

First and foremost it can never be a fruitful discussion with you men. Why? Because you abuse the Scripture time and time again. You wrongly judge. You sinfully tear down churches at this site, so it can never be a fruitful discussion until you repent of your sins.

AND......think of this.......and it is true whether you don't agree with it. Even if there is one church of Christ out there, and we know that there is, that uses instrumental music to worship God, then since the church is ONE church, then the church of Christ does in fact practice instrumental music in their assemblies. If that church faithfully adheres to the commandments of God (even though you don't believe they do) and worships with instruments, then your claim is a lie, for even if it is one.....they still are a part of and represent the brotherhood just as much as any other congregation does.

If you need Scripture to abuse further about one church........look it up. I really don't feel the need to do it for you so you can abuse that too.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Tell the truth then: it just may hurt Donnie

April 19 2011, 2:22 AM 

Does your own home congregation of the church of Christ practice the use of any musical devices: piano, organ, guitar or flute, harp, sackbut? [I am not asking about certain individuals and their specific belief; rather, I am asking about the congregation as a whole.]

If true, then, I'll accept that fact.

If not true, then, you are accusing your own congregation of following a "man-made tradition" [using your own phraseology, Dave] of vocal singing only
. And how can you keep your congregation away from this "man-made tradition" [again, your own assertion]?

That one or a few among the thousands of congregations of the church use mechanical music devices is not the point, and that doesn't make the entire body of Christ "instrumental." If you deny the truth that churches of Christ DO NOT use musical devices in their assemblies, it means that you are distorting the truth about the church, the body of Christ. It also means that denominational churches know more than you about the church of Christ not using instrumental music. ASK THEM. They know; you do not know.

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Fred Whaley
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Adding An Instrumental Worship

April 19 2011, 10:32 AM 

Fred's congregation is now adding an instrumental worship service on Sunday mornings beginning in May. Our sign says "Church of Christ" and we also go to the Church of Christ Winterfest in Gatlinburg.

Fred Whaley

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Adding An Instrumental Worship

April 19 2011, 11:17 AM 

We offer you our deepest sympathies. Under your "new" setup, if you keep "Church of Christ" on your sign, you're just fooling yourselves and the public.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Ken is delighted.

April 19 2011, 12:18 PM 

The MARK of the beast is "a new style of song or drama." Ken would be sorely disappointed if more and more churched do not fall: Remember that Jesus told you that the wind, string and percussion instruments are the MARKS in sight and sound of God driving His enemies into hell. John agreed and called the fruity speakers, singers and instrument players SORCERERS. He consigns these sorcerers along with the DOGS and liars to the Lake of Fire. Because God caused people to consume themselves with their own lips, I believe that we are watching the fall.

The other MARK of music is that it tells God to shut His mouth: that needs no proving since you are speaking using the LIPS OF THE FRUITS forces Jesus Christ to be silent as He is again slaughtered with mocking music.

[linked image]
[linked image]

If the signs did not come to pass at this time frame for the 7 "days" parable, I would consider my 14 year effort a failure.

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(no login)

Wade on In Gents....For the Wate is Fine

April 19 2011, 1:19 PM 

"Fred's congregation is now adding an instrumental worship service on Sunday mornings beginning in May. Our sign says "Church of Christ" and we also go to the Church of Christ Winterfest in Gatlinburg."

As the Brits say.....Spot on Time!!!

Don't listen to ole Bill. His day is coming where his bill will come due.

Fred, your post was PERFECT timing!

Thank you so much.

We also send our teenagers to Winterfest. They love Jeff Walling, and the skits, and the Contemporary Christian instrumental music and beautiful a capella singing.

See Donnie....another church of Christ worshiping God with instruments. They are as much a part of the brotherhood as any church that sings a capella. As a matter of fact, this settles it once and for all.
Instrumental music has never been and will never be a salvation issue and does NOT define the church or whether a church is in good standing.

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Fred Whaley
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Re: Wade on In Gents....For the Wate is Fine

April 19 2011, 3:56 PM 

Under Billy's logic we ARE a Church of Christ during the acappella worship but not during the instrumental one. We ARE a Church of Christ when we take communion but not when we sing with clapping or music. Under Billy's logic we ARE a Church of Christ at least until May - oh Fred forgot we are already banned from heaven because we participate in the group whoop of Winterfest. Under Billy's logic we might as well not assemble or do any good works simply because a piano will be in the building accompanying some of our worship. Under Billy's logic there is no need for grace for acappella worshippers and no room for grace for instrumental worshippers (in his mind instrumental worshippers have not only sinned but the sin is unpardonable). Toxicity. Straining gnats and swallowing camels. Christians can sing with instruments and worship God acceptably and Christians can sing with only voices and still be wrong because worship is a matter of the heart! Ephesians 5:19 does not say to sing. It says to sing and make melody in your heart to the Lord. Of course the singing is "four-part" harmony and not chants in unison. happy.gif

Fred Whaley

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Fred Whaley
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Questions for Billy

April 19 2011, 4:04 PM 

Was the Corinthian congregation a "Church of Christ" when they had the sexually immoral heterosexuals, homosexuals and drunkards being forgiven? If instrumental music is a sin and that's a big IF can such people be forgiven just as sexually immoral heterosexuals and drunkards were and can be?

Fred Whaley

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Thanks, Freddie-Pie

April 19 2011, 4:19 PM 

So, you are comparing the use of instruments in the presence of a holy (Wholly) Spirit
God is equivalent to adultery? That's good because the musical-perversion connection has always been absolute.

1Corinthians 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

In one translation, it reads: "Your assemblies do more harm than good."
That was just after warning about the uncovered female prophesiers whom He called MAD: they are known in literature as the "mad women of Corinth."

1Corinthians 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

Paul called them STILL CARNAL and did not endorse or approve of anything they were doing.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Questions for Billy

April 19 2011, 4:37 PM 

If a person engages in a sinful act, such as drunkenness or homosexuality, s/he cannot hope to be forgiven unless s/he repents and no longer engages in that act.

If a congregation as a group elects to engage in an act of "worship" that is not found in the New Testament, is that not a sin? Is going against that which the New Testament explicitly commands not a sin? Those congregants cannot hope to be forgiven unless they repent and no longer engage in that act.

Implementing instrumental music is NOT an act of worship that is found in the New Testament; the act of singing and making melody in our hearts IS found there.

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Not to worry Freddie-pie

April 19 2011, 4:11 PM 

Ken doesn't sell ANY of his body parts. The Self-pleasure Paul outlawed in Romans 15 includes all of the performing arts as well as "prostitution."

I don't believe in preachers nor the collection plate to feed them. I give my time to the Lord on the Lord's day: not to sissy parasites.

In Isaiah 50 defines the assault on Messiah as:

Isa 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters,
....In Isaiah 50 defines the assault on Messiah as:

Isa 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters,
....and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair:
....I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Isaiah 50.6 [6] corpus meum dedi percutientibus et genas meas vellentibus faciem meam non averti ab increpantibus et conspuentibus

Per-cto Carries the always-violent message of Psallo
II. (With the idea of the verb predominating.) To strike, beat, hit, smite, shoot, etc. (cf.: ico, pulso, ferio).
I. (With the notion of the per predominating.) To strike through and through, to thrust or pierce through (syn.: percello, transfigo).
In Particular b. To strike, play a musical instrument (poet.): lyram, Ov. Am. 3, 12, 40; Val. Fl. 5, 100.
B. Trop.
1. To smite, strike, visit with calamity of any kind (class.): percussus calamitate, Cic. Mur. 24, 49: percussus fortunae vulnere, id. Ac. 1, 3, 11: ruina, Vulg. Zach. 14, 18: anathemate. id. Mal. 4, 6: plaga, id. 1 Macc. 1, 32: in stuporem, id. Zach. 12, 4.

2. To strike, shock, make an impression upon, affect deeply, move, astound (class.): percussisti me de oratione prolat, Cic. Att. 3, 12, 3; id. Mil. 29, 79:
I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Isaiah 50.6 [6] corpus meum dedi percutientibus et genas meas vellentibus faciem meam non averti ab increpantibus et conspuentibus

God's message is that he that plants, waters and labors SHALL eat
It is the GIFT of God. You have to DILIGENTLY SEEK God:

HO, every one that thirsteth,
.... come ye to the waters,
....and he that hath no money;
....come ye, buy, and eat; yea,
....come, buy wine and milk WITHOUT MONEY
.... and WITHOUT PRICE. Isa 55:1
2 Cor. 2:17 For we are not as many,
.... which corrupt the word of God:
.... but as of sincerity, but as of God,
.... in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

kapl-eu, A. to be a retail-dealer, drive a petty trade Hdt. 3.89 ta mathmata sell learning by retail, hawk it about, Pl. Prt.313d , 2 Cor. 2:17, of prostitute

We should not worry about the blind willing to PAY for what Jesus died to give us free of charge.

God gives us the right to hiss and boo such foolish people. If you want to boast about being made into a fool then you would give your money to the MadeOffs of the world. I just laugh and laugh and laughs.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Wade on In Gents....For the Wate is Fine

April 19 2011, 4:16 PM 

After an "appropriate" period of time when the congregation has been fully brainwashed, the services at Fred's church will eventually be all-instrumental. You've taken the first step toward denominationalism--one instrumental service next to the a cappella service(s).

Your sign should be truthful and say something like:


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Fred Whaley
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arer ipoxiure dfidh eir qerietsndgixir erieh yxiaqp kfdfeifj

April 19 2011, 4:17 PM 

happy.gif Interpretation: Four Part Harmony With Microphones and Speakers Are O.K. Traditions of Men except for Ken who opposes all singing And Sins Are Forgiven In Jesus With the Exception of Pianos which Are Sinful and Unpardonable as Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. He who has ears to hear let him hear. sad.gif

Fred Whaley

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

off topic

April 19 2011, 4:30 PM 

The issue is imposing instruments into other people's property by lying, cheating and stealing the church house of widows.

The ANTI-instrument is overwhemingly documented in the Bible and most recorded history. They fact that you PROCURE men who say God said nothing against instruments just proves that they have been made blind and deaf--just like Mount Sinai.

These people are MERCHANTS of death and really could care less about the Bible they are waged to teach. This is a huge garbage pit where evil men are leading the leadable into hell. That's what Christ said in Isaiah 30 and John said in Revelation.

No one can be stupid enough to teach what they are selling as a Satanic, hostile takeover of specificially churches of Christ who are faithful to the Bible and all of church history who KNEW that even in the garden of Eden Christ called Lucifer the "singing and harp playing prostitute."

They problem with being taken captive in a community church defined as a COMMUNE is the Stockholm Syndrome. Those being raped defend the rapist.

Just repeating the ANTI-Biblical and ANTI-Christian stuff off the top of your head is God giving you many chances to put all of the nails in your own coffin.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

4 part harmony

April 19 2011, 5:03 PM 

No, I do not approve of 4 part harmony which in fact generates dozens of "voices."

Melosy is not harmony and has nothing to do with it. Harmony began to develop after the monks and composers got simple organs to fiddle around with. You cannot do most of the Bible with either melody or harmony.

Harmony in the Greek sense meant sounding together: Paul commanded that we use one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written.

Harmony in fact works because it hides the "dog barks at midnite" and the "Chinese water drips" as you move from one note to another. Nevertheless the grating sounds are there and the mind is 100% occupied trying to follow each little overtone. That is why we know that harmony shuts down the rational or spiritual hemisphere so that the preacher can pour in his swill and you think that it was your idea all along: that's why you cannot turn loose the bewitched idea that God wants to be entertained or even sexually stimulated.

Romans 12:1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that
..........YE present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God,
..........which is your reasonable service.
tn logikn latreian humn:

It is IMPOSSIBLE--and the preacherkrats know it--to pay attention to the words of Christ (commanded) when he uses sorcery to bewitch you:

G2380 thuÿ thoo'-o A primary verb; properly to rush (breathe hard, blow, smoke), that is, (by implication) to sacrifice (properly by fire, but generally); by extension to immolate (slaughter for any purpose):--kill, (do) sacrifice, slay.
Thu^si-a , Ion. -i, h(, (thu) prop. A. burnt-offering, sacrifice, en thusisi einai Hdt.8.99;

leitourg-ia , h(, earlier Att. lt- IG22.1140.14 (386 B.C.):at Athens, and elsewhere (e.g. Siphnos, Isoc.19.36; Mitylene, Antipho 5.77),
III. public service of the gods, hai pros tous theous l. Arist.Pol.1330a13; hai tn then therapeiai kai l. D.S.1.21, cf. UPZ17.17 (ii B.C.), PTeb.302.30 (i A.D.), etc.; the service or ministry of priests, LXX Nu.8.25, Ev.Luc.1.23.

"Biblical Greek. Here the meaning is always religious. leitourgia in the OT is limited to priestly and Levitical administration. In the LXX it renders chiefly the Hebrew abhodha (5656) (from abad (5647)) which signifies service to God, specially undertaken by priests and Levites (e.g. Num.8:25; Lk.1:23; Heb.8:6; 9:21). In Christian Greek there is the additional meaning of brotherly beneficence operating in the local church, seen as a sacrifice to God.

"St. Paul speaks of himself being 'offered,' as upon an altar (Ph.2:17), and Epaphras as sacrificing almost his life to supply the Philippians' lack of leitourgia (2:30). He uses the word to indicate the almsgiving of Corinthian believers (II Cor.9:12). St. Clement speaks of leitourgia of each Christian apparently in the context of the Eucharist (41:1), and later in connection with the bishop's office.(44:3,6).The placing of the word leitourgia in the context of the Eucharist so early in Christian history naturally raises the question whether this term, having a strong sacrificial sense in Biblical Greek, does not figure in the same context in the NT. Is not Paul referring thereby to the offertory gifts at the Breaking of Bread

Latin: Romans 12.1 obsecro itaque vos fratres per misericordiam Dei ut exhibeatis corpora vestra hostiamviventemsanctam Deo placentem rationabile obsequium vestrum

Rtnblis , e, adj. ratio (post-Aug.; = rationalis, which is in better use), I. reasonable, rational: he pure milk of reason, id. 1 Pet. 2, 2: sententia vera et rationabilis,

Sententa , ae, f. for sentientia, from sentio,
I. a way of thinking, opinion, judgment, sentiment; a purpose, determination, decision, will, etc.
I. Transf., of words, discourse, etc., sense, meaning, signification, idea, notion, etc.
1. In gen., a thought expressed in words; a sentence, period: dum de singulis sententiis breviter disputo

Greek rational worship demands:

logi^k-os , , on, (logos)
A. of or for speaking or speech, mer l. the organs of speech, Plu.Cor.38:
logik, h, speech, Opposite. mousik, Opposite phantasia expressed in speech,
II. possessed of reason, intellectual, meros Ti.Locr.99e, al.; to l. zon
dianotikai, Mind Opposite. thikai, Arist.EN1108b9.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Wade on In Gents....For the Wate is Fine

April 19 2011, 4:03 PM 

When God says to sing and make melody in your hearts, are you really willing to gamble that instrumental music is not a salvation issue? If God says to do something and you do something differently or not at all, that is disobeying God. Can disobeying God ever lead to salvation?

Who are you to say that a commandment of God is or is not a salvation issue? Some people claim that baptism is not a salvation issue, even though the New Testament commands us to be baptized for remission of sins. Those people say that since water cannot save us, it could never be a salvation issue. Apparently they are willing to gamble that they can still be saved without being baptized, just like you are willing to gamble that you can still be saved if you add instrumental music, when God has specified the type of music to use in Christian worship.

When people are bent on following their own personal paths to salvation instead of the path outlined in the New Testament, they decide that this or that New Testament doctrine or command is moot or not a salvation issue: "Oh, God is too loving and would NEVER damn us for little things like adding a piano to 'aid,' 'enhance,' and 'accompany' our worship, and choosing never to get dunked! God has much bigger problems with the world to worry about!" That's quite a foolhardy attitude for Christians to have.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Wade on In Gents....For the Wate is Fine

April 19 2011, 4:14 PM 

Doc, you obviously did not major in being a Doctor of the Law. In this post-modern world the REAL translation--and they say as much.

Sing and make melody UPON a harp.

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(no login)

Life is GOOD!!!

April 19 2011, 4:45 PM 

This discussion is over....and son, you have come up on the short end of the stick.
No one is going to allow you, Ken, or Donnie to get away with trying to speak for God. Again, you want your own religion? Fine.....just leave Christianity to those who have the capacity to love.
You guys just do not have that capacity.
Now get out your tissues people while William tells us of this sob story about how we are picking on them for not being able to love.
As Fred so eloquently put it, that is where the worship begins and from the heart.
1 Corinthians 13.......without love you are NOTHING!!!
Which means even if you ARE right about anything and everything, without love, you look at being right and judgmental as your religion. Christ is nowhere in the equation. NO LOVE!!!
Lost if you do and lost if you don't.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Never read 1 Cor 13, huh?

April 19 2011, 5:24 PM 

The worst example Paul could find to define speaking in tongues was the clanging brass and tinkling cymbals: lifeless instrument.

Those literate kiddies back then would be too smart to let preachercator steal from the widows and honest working people because they were literate:

XIV. Homer, Hymn to Rhea TO THE Mother OF THE GODS

I prithee, clear-voiced Muse, daughter of mighty Zeus, sing of the Mother of all gods and men.
She is well-pleased with the sound of rattles and of timbrels,
with the voice of flutes and the outcry of wolves and bright-eyed lions,
with echoing hills and wooded coombes.
And so hail to you in my song and to all goddesses as well!

Orphic theogony.

"Now Rhea, as Ceres, in Hymn XIV, is called 'brass-sounding' and 'drum-beating'.

This has reference to the mystical results of certain sounds and rhythm,

part and parcel of what the Hindus call Mantravidyâ. I remember reading a curious old French book in the Bibliothèque de la Ville of Clermont-Ferrand, one of the books confiscated from the Minime Monastery of the same town, at the time of the Revolution.

This work dealt with the magical properties of music, and described for what especial purposes the various instruments of music were used in the Temple-service of the Jews. Now Iamblichus (De Mysteries, III.ix) goes into the matter of the

so-called Corybantic and Bacchic 'frenzies' produced by musical instruments in the Mysteries of Ceres and Bacchus;

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Life is GOOD!!!

April 19 2011, 6:55 PM 

Dave, you sound like a guy who single-handedly challenged the Red Chinese army to fight him in his own back yard. When the army didn't show up, he cried, "I won! I won!" That is, your "victory" is a hallucination, son.

As long as change agents and sympathizers like you and others are bent on teaching people to go against the New Testament and change God's commands to suit their preferences and pleasures, we'll be here to set them straight. The arguments will only end on Doom's Day, son.

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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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