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Manufacturing Taboos

April 17 2011 at 11:44 AM
Dr. Bill Crump  (no login)
from IP address 74.179.210.233

According to 1 Cor. 4:6, we are not to go above what is written in Scripture. That is, we are not to add to, take from, or in any way alter God's commands as presented in the New Testament. To do so is sinful. If something about a command does not suit us and we tweak it so that it becomes more palatable to the masses, then that is sinful. Likewise, manufacturing taboos that are not present in the New Testament is also sinful.

For example, if a congregation decides to change its meeting time and someone condemns that change as sinful, that person sins, because the New Testament does not address meeting times. Likewise, condemning a change in the number of hymns sung or the order of worship is sinful, because the New Testament does not address those issues.

Pushing for denominationalism, some members of the Church of Christ claim that it is a sin to condemn anything that God does not explicitly forbid by name, despite the fact that God may have already addressed the issue.

For example, the New Testament specifies bread and fruit of the vine as the emblems for the Lord's Supper, yet some people advocate alternatives like pizza and soft drinks, because the New Testament does not forbid those items by name. The argument is that if God had wanted ONLY bread and fruit of the vine, He would have said not to use any other emblems. It's the old bit of "God didn't say not to." Because those people claim that condemning pizza and soft drinks is sinful, they manufacture a taboo that is not present in the New Testament. Hence, they sin.

A similar example involves instrumental music. Although Christ through Paul tells us to sing and make melody in our hearts (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16), advocates of instruments claim that condemning instruments is sinful, because the New Testament does not explicitly condemn them by name. The argument is that if God had wanted ONLY vocal music, He would have said not to use any other forms of music. Again, it's the old bit of "God didn't say not to." Because those people claim that condemning instrumental music is sinful, they manufacture a taboo that is not present in the New Testament. Hence, they sin.

People who manufacture taboos to please themselves in worship are not willing to take Gods explicit commands in the New Testament and abide by them. They would have God make an extensive, exhaustive list of every conceivable item in the universe that is forbidden; without such a list, they do as they please. That, of course, is utterly ridiculous.

 
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AuthorReply
Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.33

Jesus won't let them read the Prophets through Christ

April 17 2011, 12:48 PM 

The problem on both sides of the issue is that they DENY Christ and are indeed ANTI-Christs and blasphemers by hiding from the fact that Christ defined the future REST in inclusive and exclusive terms. Peter affirms that Jesus Christ led by that same Spirit made the prophecies more certain. As Jesus commanded that "we teach that which HE commanded to be taught," in 2 Peter 1-2 Peter outlawed private interpretations or further expoundings: a MARK of a false teacher is that he does not teach "that which is written for our learning." Christ was EXPLICIT: we are just dumb and dumber.

Luke 11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers:
......for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the WISDOM of God,
......I will send them prophets and apostles,
......and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets,
......which was shed from the foundation of the world,
......may be required of this generation;
Luke 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias,
......which perished between the altar and the temple:
......verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

John 6:44 No man can come to me,
......except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
......and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets,
......And they shall be all taught of God.
......Every man therefore that hath heard,
......and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Baptism is the MARK or SEAL that one is a Disciple of Christ beginning in the Prophets. By being deliberately ignorant of the Prophets they blasphem the Spirit of Christ by denying that He outlawed all of the performing arts and crafts. They further blaspheme by claiming that their vain and evil imagination is the Spirit person speaking to them. Christ defined them in Jeremiah 23.

......Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
......and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Romans 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

Ephesians 2:20 And are built
......upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
......Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
......as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners
......spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
......whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
......by whom also he made the worlds;

James 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord,
......for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

1Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently,
......who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time
......the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
......when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves,
......but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you
......by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost
......sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

God the One Father in heaven made Jesus of Nazareth to be both Lord and Christ. When the father "breathed" on Jesus as the Son (Word) it was articulated into audible words. Jesus commanded that we teach that which HE commanded to be taught: if they cannot understand that then it is a MARK that God hides himself from the WISE (Sophists: preachers, singers, players, actors) and Jesus will not PRAY for those of the WORLD:

kosmos , metaph., of ornaments of speech, such as epithets, Id.9.9 (pl.), Arist.Rh.1408a14, Po.1457b2, 1458a33; hadumel k. keladein to sing sweet songs of praise, Pi.O.11 (10).13 (s.v.l.).
Pind. O. 11 My tongue wants to foster such themes; [10] but it is by the gift of a god that a man flourishes with a skillful mind, as with anything else. For the present rest assured, Hagesidamus son of Archestratus: for the sake of your boxing victory,
...... I shall loudly sing a sweet song, an adornment for your garland of golden olive,
...... [15] while I honor the race of the Western Locrians.
There, Muses, join in the victory-song; I shall pledge my word to you that we will find there a race that does not repel the stranger, or is inexperienced in fine deeds, but one that is wise and warlike too.


2Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy;
...... whereunto ye do well that ye take heed,
......as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,
......until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture
......is of any private interpretation. (further expounding)
2Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
......but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2Pet. 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets,
......and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Nice Try Donnie

April 19 2011, 9:17 AM 


Donnie, you said "...you are accusing your own congregation of following a "man-made tradition" [using your own phraseology, Dave] of vocal singing only. And how can you keep your congregation away from this "man-made tradition" [again, your own assertion]?

Donnie, the following is what I said on Monday. You saw it, but just like always you PREFERRED to ignore it (you're the kind of person that can't listen because you are thinking about what you want to say next)

--NO!!! April 18 2011, 12:05 PM--
"The tradition of a capella is not in of itself wrong. The sin lies when men like you want to make one man-made tradition sacred over another one."

Same ole Donnie, just a different day.


 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

And And And And And

April 19 2011, 1:29 PM 

And another thing Ken, when you say "Remember that Jesus told you that the wind, string and percussion instruments are the MARKS in sight and sound of God driving His enemies into hell," would't you consider that ANOTHER of your lies? You can't prove (never have proven and never will be able to prove) that Jesus said that.
Not only is it a lie but it is bordering on blasphemy.....on trying to speak on behalf of Christ. Did Jesus specifically talk to you about this matter? Did He tell you that you needed to add Enoch to His already Perfect Word?

 
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Rocnar
(no login)
98.81.114.157

Re: Manufacturing Taboos

April 17 2011, 4:37 PM 

Changing meeting times or order of worship is okay because God didn't address it.

Isn't that not an example of "God didn't say not to"?

Dr. Crump didn't you not coin the phrase "God didn't say not to"?

Seriously, is it not the same thing?

 
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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.48

Re: Manufacturing Taboos

April 17 2011, 4:55 PM 

Disciples of Christ meet to DO Bible class. We restrict the meaning of "worship" to giving attendance to the Word of Christ (only).

If you get the Driven Purpose it doesn't matter when you assemble: if you meet to worship in the pagan sense it doesn't matter THAT you assemble.

If you catch on that ekklesia or synagogue is a "word only" reading, discussing and decising assembly then we can turn the singy-clappys into pole dancers.

 
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Rocnar
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98.81.43.145

Re: Manufacturing Taboos

April 17 2011, 9:09 PM 

I'm not smart in the usual way but baiting me to inquire about the fate of the musical instrument players since they were apparently spared, won't defer the question, but I won't ask anyway. The new pole dancers needed musicators to play while they danced. No reply needed.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
98.87.21.41

Re: Manufacturing Taboos

April 17 2011, 8:52 PM 

No, I did not coin the phrase, "God didn't say not to." It would not have mattered if I had.

Apparently some people believe that, for example, justifying a PA system in the church because "God didn't say not to" is exactly the same as justifying instrumental music in worship because "God didn't say not to." But are those two situations spiritually identical? I hardly think so. If a homosexual man says "I love you" to his same-sex partner and a "straight" man says the same words to his "straight" wife, are both situations identical spiritually? Is the homosexual "love" spiritually equivalent to the "straight" love? Absolutely not. The former is an abomination, whereas the latter is not.

Do intelligent people really justify non-spiritual items like PA systems, kitchens, toilets, pews, church buildings, indoor plumbing, and thousands of other incidentals with "God didn't say not to?" People don't need to, because God never addressed those non-spiritual matters; hence, they should present no problems. On the other hand, people more readily resort to the principle of "God didn't say not to" whenever they want to defy or get around one or more of God's commands; in so doing, they apparently think they can "pull the wool over God's eyes." It's the same as a child who is caught throwing a brick through a window after his parents have told him not to throw rocks. When asked why he disobeyed, the defiant child says, "You only said I couldn't throw rocks; you didn't say I couldn't throw a brick." The child thought he could "justify" his foolish act as long as it was outside the circle of what the parents did not explicitly forbid by name--throwing ROCKS.

People pull similar stunts in the Church. Despite God's directives, these people have the same defiant attitude of "God didn't say not to." They make a mockery of God's explicit commands by altering or skirting them to suit their worldly desires.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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74.179.204.157

"God Didn't Say Not To"

April 17 2011, 9:36 PM 


 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Lame is as Lame Does

April 18 2011, 1:50 AM 

You can have your lame discussions about the instrumental music bit. It is lame now, it was lame then, and it will always be lame. Some contributors here have NEVER insinuated that 'God didn't say to." It is just more of the same here at concernedmembers. Instead of sound Scriptural teachings, they would rather try to smear anyone who doesn't agree with them. They would rather conjure up out of thin air a story about what someone said to fulfill their sinful fantasies.

Do you need more proof? If you don't have enough already, then here is the straw that breaks the camel's back. When someone ABUSES I Corinthians 4:6 repeatedly, over and over, when they know better because they have been taught better, you know that they could care less about sound doctrine and counting on the traditions of men instead of the traditions of God.

Mark 7
8 "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.
9 And he continued, You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!

To show the horrid abuse of 1 Corinthians 4:6 coming from the wolf in sheep's clothing we will delve into it with fervid study.
We will look at the verses before and after verse 6 and see how it is obvious that the meaning that the above Christian imposter wants to be focal here is indeed his way instead of God's Way. The verse could never mean what he wants it to mean.
1 Corinthians 3

21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the futureall are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.
1 Corinthians 4
1 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
6Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, Do not go beyond what is written. Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

As ANYONE that cares to ATTEMPT to think about what is being said here would surely know that it cannot be talking about the written Word. Why? First of all the Word was not in written form, except for the Old Law and even then Paul was not speaking of that. I started back with the final verses of 1 Corinthians 3 because Paul so adequately begins to form a background for verse 6 in the following chapter. He is showing, without a shadow of a doubt, that all men are of one body, of Christ Jesus our Lord, and no other man. He comes full circle with this in Chapter 4 with the REST of verse 6. You see why men who try constantly to distort the Word would show only the part that they can use for their human traditions. The rest of the verse makes it null and void!!! AFTER "Do not go beyond what is written," we also see "Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other." Paul was telling the congregation at Corinth to not follow ANY man, but only Christ. He didn't want other men leading them astray so stick to what Paul said about Christ being the only leader of the Kingdom.
If the case were that man should not go beyond what is written, then he would have sinned by meeting in a church building (no direct Scripture for that). He would have sinned for using a PA system (no direct Scripture for that). He would have sinned by using the internet to get the word out about Jesus saves (no direct Scripture for that), etc., etc.
The Christian imposter also will tell you that everything that HE likes for his man-made tradtions can be covered under the following Scripture:
1 Corinthians 14:40
But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

However, the same can be said for worshiping with instruments of music, because they also can give order. These imposters will say that a PA system is an AID or TOOL where a musical instrument is an addition. You see the evil that abounds here? If they want their human traditions, then they need to write their own book, call it whatever religion they prefer, and leave those who want to follow Jesus alone.

This is not the only time that the above perpetrator has shown his lack of love for the Precious Word of God. Evil in....evil out. Trash in.....trash out. Concernedmembers.....literally and figuratively.....stinks!!!

All of this hideous behavior just to lift high another sacred man-made tradition. Men will burn in hell because of lifting them up.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Traditions of Men vs. Traditions of the Apostles

April 18 2011, 3:10 AM 

Dave, you said that: "you know that they could care less about sound doctrine and counting on the traditions of men instead of the traditions of God."

Question: There is no command, example or implication in the New Testament that inanimate and lifeless musical devices are to be used in the assembly of NT saints. Isn't that the tradition of Christ and His apostles?

Historical facts are that the early NT Christians did not use musical objects in their assemblies; that it was the Roman Catholic Church that introduced IM; that the Protestant Churches have imitated the RCC and propagated the use of these inanimate objects (just like their idols and graven images). It is the Roman Catholic Church that is replete with human/papal traditions. It is NOT the church of Christ that adheres to man-made traditions, such as the use of musical instruments in the assembly. Please STOP accusing the church of which YOU claim to be a member as the church that is following man-made traditions.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.7.51

Re: Traditions of Men vs. Traditions of the Apostles

April 18 2011, 10:03 AM 

Dave mentioned "sound doctrine," "traditions of men," and "traditions of God." According to the "sound doctrine" of the New Testament, we are to sing and make melody in our hearts (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16). That is also the "tradition of God" in the New Covenant. Taking an explicit, New Testament command of God and adding ANYTHING MORE to it is a tradition of man; that ADDITION is sinful. Adding instrumental music when God has specified vocal music is a tradition of man; that ADDITION is sinful. Likewise, it is a tradition of man to say that it is sinful to condemn instrumental music. That manufactured taboo is also a sin, because it is NOT found in the New Testament. Such a man-made taboo further implies that strictly singing a cappella in worship is sinful. The sinful traditions of men can be quite asinine.

 
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Rocnar
(no login)
98.81.116.217

Re: Traditions of Men vs. Traditions of the Apostles

April 18 2011, 2:15 PM 

You can't have it both ways. If you want to be the verbatim hard-line type, your "singing" would be more like speaking words or "chanting" as there would be no melody in your songs, only in your heart. Think about it. However, your present position on the use of instruments being sinful is more like "the pot calling the kettle black".


 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

NO!!!

April 18 2011, 12:05 PM 

Donnie asked the question
"Question: There is no command, example or implication in the New Testament that inanimate and lifeless musical devices are to be used in the assembly of NT saints. Isn't that the tradition of Christ and His apostles?"


Absolutely NOT! That is the very essence of the problem here. Men like you have taken an issue like a capella and MADE it a man-made tradition that you believe to be more sacred over other traditions. Even if history doesn't show that the first century church used instruments of music....it was not their tradition. It was IN THE MANNER in which they decided to carry out their worship to God and His Son. The Scriptures don't tell us why they didn't use instruments, but it certainly DOES NOT condemn them. Since they were mentioned in the OT and as being used to worship God by David....if there was a problem with such the NT writers would have mentioned it. The NT writers knew of the Old Law and they knew of David's Psalms and his praise to God with instruments. No Donnie, we don't have OT Scripture stating that instrumental music was ever authorized either. We also have the Psalms speaking of using everything, both physically and spiritually, to worship our Lord. Again, do you ever see mention that the Lord was unhappy with David's praise with instruments? When God was displeased with David, do we not see the mention of this? The NT authors would have mentioned a problem with this if it WERE a problem. Instruments of music were still available in the first century, but history doesn't show the church using them. That doesn't make it sinful. It will NEVER make it sinful.
SO don't try to pin that one on our Lord and Savior. You have no right, and it is inexcusable for a person like you to knowingly and sinfully to do so. It is a man-made tradition because YOU made it that way.... not Christ and His apostles. The only command that is in place is to SING. Jesus and His apostles sung. The issue is not whether the command to sing is violated, but man wanting his tradition of a capella to be upheld as Scripture. The fact is if men sing, whether a capplla or accompanied, the command to sing is fulfilled. Jesus and the apostles never had a problem with it. Why should you? YOU have a problem with it because someone is encroaching on your man-made tradition. You take advantage of history by saying because of example and inference the Scriptures don't mention the singing being accompanied by instruments of music. We have been through this time and time again about many, many other items that the Scriptures don't mention. You group all your nice preferences under AIDS and TOOLS, and then make outcasts of those that you don't prefer by calling them ADDITIONS. A list of TOOLS, AIDS, and ADDITIONS concocted by men......not God!
The tradition of a capella is not in of itself wrong. The sin lies when men like you want to make one man-made tradition sacred over another one.
Jesus Christ told of us worshiping in Spirit and in Truth. Whether we use only the voice or the voice accompanied by instrument is not the issue. The heart and our spirit is where we worship. We are commanded to sing. We comply either vocal only or being AIDED by an instrument. The instrument does not prohibit us from singing.
Donnie, your trouble lies with the fact that you know better and have decided not to follow what is good and decent.
With all the people in this world that needs Jesus and His Saving Love....you guys want to bicker about instrumental music not being authorized.
Bicker on gents. See where it gets you.

A point to be made.....
Is it wrong for a man to follow the Old law of circumcision and have his children circumcised? Is it wrong for another man to not follow the Old law of circumcision and leave his children uncircumcised?
The situation again lies with the heart. Neither is wrong, and neither is right. Paul spoke about our circumcision today as being a heart rendered day in and day out worship to God. The same way with when we do get together on the first day of the week and worship Him. He wants us to pour out our love to Him with our singing together. As with a man wanting to have his child circumcised or not, the same goes with the singing being accompanied or not. The key is to sing with our hearts and souls giving all to Jesus.
Man comes in and fouls it up by putting conditions on our worship to God. He says that you can't do this and you can't do that if it isn't authorized specifically, and then he turns right around and does the opposite by doing what is still not authorized specifically.
So man abuses more Scripture and umbrellas his preferences under
1 Corinthians 14
40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
If a man so wishes, he can place a lot of items under this Scripture, and take out the ones that go against the traditions that he PREFERS.
PREFERENCE people......preference only!

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.210.228

Re: NO!!!

April 18 2011, 1:08 PM 

Since God/Christ through Paul has told us to use vocal music in worship, then to sing strictly a cappella is to obey that command. That obedience is neither a man-made tradition nor a preference. Since the New Covenant mentions nothing about using musical instruments, man has NO RIGHT to presume that God's silence is permissive. While God presumes nothing, man takes it upon himself to do so. It is most certainly a man-made tradition to PRESUME that God's silence is permissive, when there is NOTHING to that effect in the New Testament. Just simply follow His command to SING and let it go at that. It is also a man-made tradition to perpetuate worthless arguments that desperately seek loopholes in God's explicit command to sing.

 
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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.17

Teach what the Prophets and Apostles taught by Christ

April 18 2011, 12:19 PM 

It is amazingly prophetic that the "angels of light" make a cottage industry out of tellying the dupes that God never said anything about Commands, Examples and Inferences (CENI). They hold "workshops of evil" and mock those who believe that when Christ speaks it is AFFIRMATIVE: if He says "command them what I have commanded to be taught" He does not have to tell the NON-DELUSIONAL people that "you can ALSO teach out of your evil imagination." This is obviously the WACO SYNDROME.

2Pet. 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words
......which were spoken before by the HOLY PROPHETS
......and of the commandment of us the APOSTLES of the Lord and Saviour

Not even Jesus of Nazareth as the Incarnate Word had authority to command something the one God the Father in heaven has not communicated to Him by His Spirit or "breath."

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words,
......hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken,
......the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself;
......but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment,
......what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him,
......If a man love me, he will keep MY words: (CENI)
......and my Father will love him,
......and WE will come unto him,
......and make our abode with him.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:
......and the word which ye hear is not mine,
......but the Fathers which sent me.
John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, (paraklete)
......which is the Holy Ghost,
......whom the Father will send in my name, (His name will be Jesus)
......he shall teach you all things,
......and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Father-Son abides in us when we keep God's commandments. In the same way WE abid IN Father-Son when we keep God's commandments. Neither means INSIDE of but in connection.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father,
......even the spirit OF truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the spirit OF truth (Post-resurrected Jesus), is come,
......he will guide you into all truth:
......for he shall not speak of himself;
......but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
......and he will shew you things to come

Eph. 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
......Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph. 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
......as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit

THAT MEANS THAT HE DOES NOT SPEAK THROUGH YOUR PREACHER OR "WORSHIP LEADER"






 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Same Ole....Just a Different Day

April 18 2011, 12:42 PM 

Donnie said...."Please STOP accusing the church of which YOU claim to be a member as the church that is following man-made traditions."
No Donnie, I am accusing YOU of following man-made traditions.....not the church. The church is still perfect, even with you TRYING to foul it up. Notice the capitalized TRYING? You may try, but to no avail.

William Crump said..."Taking an explicit, New Testament command of God and adding ANYTHING MORE to it is a tradition of man; that ADDITION is sinful."

You can add the PA but not the piano? Nope. They are both aids. Neither the PA nor the piano keep man from obeying the command to sing. Both the piano and PA bring order to the worship. 1 Corinthians 14:40.
You can wail away about what you want instead of what God wants until our Lord comes again, and then again.....you can also wail away after He comes again too. Plenty of time for your wailing before and after. A bit of the gnashing of teeth too....I might say.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.210.228

Re: Same Ole....Just a Different Day

April 18 2011, 1:38 PM 

Sorry, Dave, but you continue to perpetuate the old apples-and-oranges bit. God doesn't address PA systems (and hundreds of other non-spiritual items), so there is no problem in having them; they are, indeed, aids. Their presence does not conflict with New Testament Scripture.

On the other hand, God DOES address worship music. The only kind of music that he mentions is vocal music, which is a cappella singing--singing without the accompaniment of musical instruments. So, it boils down to whether we want to obey New Testament Scripture and sing a cappella; or whether we want to be defiant, ADD to NT Scripture, and bring in the musical instruments, which DO conflict with NT Scripture. Man's tradition is to consider instruments as "aids" that "enhance" and "accompany" our singing, but God mentions nothing about aiding, enhancing, or accompanying our singing. Our simple voices in song are sufficient. What about singing in unison or in 2-, 3-, or 4-part harmony? God just tells us to SING; He specifies nothing about unison or harmony. Therefore, the choice is ours.

The only way we could ever rightfully bring in instruments would be if God in the New Testament had said something generic to the effect of, "Worship Me with music." That would have given us carte blanche to use either vocal music, instrumental music, or combinations of the two.

 
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Rocnar
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Re: Who Are You?

April 18 2011, 6:43 PM 

Dr. Crump, who are you to condemn instruments when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, who are you to deem using instruments as sinful when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, have you ever considered that you are going out on a limb?

Perhaps you should be silent where God has not spoken.

BTW, that advise came from a good COC friend that I RESPECT.

 
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Rocnar
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Re: Who Are You?

April 18 2011, 6:46 PM 

Dr. Crump, who are you to condemn instruments when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, who are you to deem using instruments as sinful when GOD has not?

Dr. Crump, have you ever considered that you are going out on a limb?

Perhaps you should be silent where God has not spoken.

BTW, that advise came from a good COC friend that I RESPECT.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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