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Three Change Agents Implicated in Seditious Plot to Dismantle the Church of Christ

April 20 2011 at 2:05 AM
Donnie Cruz  (Login Donnie.Cruz)
from IP address

The Declaration and Address PERVERTED by the musical bandits.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

First. ALL authority belongs to Jesus Whom God made to be both Lord and Christ and Word and Grace.
Second. The command is to GO and make disciples
Third. The ONLY authority is to teach what Christ taught in the Prophets and Jesus made more certain and the Apostles left for our "memory."
Fourth. The EFFECT of Jesus Christ in Spirit being WITH them is based on the contract: YOU teach what I have commanded you to teach.
Fifth. There is no statute of limitations until Jesus returns and returns the Throne and authority to God.
Sixth. A Church of Christ is built upon (educated by) the Prophets and Apostles who were eye-- and ear-- witnesses.
Seventh. Peter said that COMBO was not subject to private interpretation or further expounding: that would mock the testimony that the Father left of His Son.

Eighth. Anyone who did not TEACH that which is written is marked as a FALSE TEACHER following the pattern of the FALSE PROPHETS.


The FALSE TEACHERS do not honor the Father's endorsement of the testimony (prophets and apostles) when they IGNORE direct commands and OUTLAWING of all of the hypocritic arts and artists when they TWIST the Campbell's to let THEM impose that which Christ and the Campbells FORBID. That is anyting you IMPOSE to deliberately sow discord so you can get your too-close--for--comfort companions a HOLY PLACE to stand and claim to be speaking for God.

2. That although the Church of Christ upon earth must necessarily exist in particular and distinct societies, locally separate one from another, yet there ought to be no schisms, no uncharitable divisions among them. They ought to receive each other as Christ Jesus hath also received them, to the glory of God.

And for this purpose they ought all to walk by the same rule, to mind and speak the same thing; and to be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

The ANTI-Biblical and therefore ANTI-Christian churches mock this as impossible. However, Paul repeated Christ's command for the church in the wilderness. SELF-pleasure OUTLAWS all of the music and performing artists:

Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Romans 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification [EDUCATION]
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,
that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Any DISCIPLE can understand this without being a detested "rationalists" in the words of John Mark Hicks who claims that the Campbells did NOT get their "hermeneutics" from the bible.

3. That in order to this, nothing ought to be inculcated upon Christians as articles of faith;
nor required of them as terms of communion,
but what is expressly taught and enjoined upon them in the word of God.
Nor ought anything to be admitted, as of Divine obligation, in their Church constitution and managements, (Locke LT)

but what is expressly enjoined [epitak-tos injunctions, orders] by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ and his apostles upon the New Testament Church; either in express terms or by approved precedent.

The ANTIs claim that YOU cannot forbid me from adding anything which is not EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN. The instrumental idolaters REST on the CURSE of the Sacrificial system which THEY think was God's ORIGINAL command for "congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment."

4. That although the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are inseparably connected, making together but one perfect and entire revelation of the Divine will, for the edification and salvation of the Church, and therefore in that respect can not be separated;

yet as to what directly and properly belongs to their immediate object, the New Testament is as for the worship, discipline, and government of the New Testament Church, and as perfect a rule for the particular duties of its members,

as the Old Testament was for the worship, discipline, and government of the Old Testament Church, and the particular duties of its members. (Declaration And Address)

Got your attention? Of course, the original article is posted below. You see, politics and religion have something in common -- the liberals and the progressives are out there to subvert, pervert, convert, attack, infiltrate, divide and seek "whom [they] may devour."

Dave is so elated and so quick to sing "Hallelujah!!! Praise the Lord" for that one (Fred Whaley's) congregation that is on its way to a full alignment with either the Community Church or the Christian Church.

As of this writing, Dave has been too cowardly to ask his denominational friends what they know about the church of Christ and instrumental music in the assembly. These friends KNOW, but Dave refuses to acknowledge (but disagrees with his friends) the truth and fact that churches of Christ reject the mechanical operation of musical devices in their assemblies, PERIOD!!! [OK, disregard the punctuation error.]

Oops, I forgot something -- Dave sings "Hallelujah" because one more congregation (Fred's) has been added to the list of churches that have been transformed into "Community Churches" [the denomination] or affiliated with the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ.

And where's that list of churches MISLED by misleading and confused leaders (shepherds) of their respective congregations? In case you didn't know, there are approximately 40,000 congregations of the church of Christ worldwide. Let's do some math: let's say there are 20 DISSIDENT congregations; divide 39980 by 40000; that's 99.95% -- virtually a hundred percent (100%) since dissident congregations [at no fault of the members but of the mis-leaders] have other affiliations.

Wait, I think I have found the list:

  • The Richland Hills Church of Christ, North Richland Hills, TX, Rick Atchley, minister
  • The Quail Springs Church of Christ, Oklahoma City, OK., Mark Henderson, minister.
  • Norway Ave. Church of Christ, Huntington, WV, Jeff Garrett, minister.
  • The Faithcross Church of Christ, (formerly Tomball Church of Christ) Tomball, TX.
  • Oak Hills Church (of Christ), San Antonio, TX, Max Lucado, minister.
  • The Farmers Branch Church of Christ, Dallas, TX, Chris Seidman, minister
  • The Northwest Church of Christ, Seattle, WA, Milton Jones, minister.
  • The Central Church of Christ Cocoa, FL. Don Adkins, minister
  • Metro Church of Christ, Orlando, FL, Don Holland, minister
  • Bridgeway Church (of Christ) Flowermound, TX, Art, McNeese, minister
  • The First Colony Church of Christ, Sugarland, TX, Ronnie Norman, minister
  • _____________________________________________________
  • _____________________________________________________

Fred, you boldly proclaim your stance on instrumental music, would you be bold enough to update the list by simply adding your congregation's name above? Don't be shy, ashamed or afraid.

Dave, you espouse that you have "LOVE," but that not anyone of us does. You also espouse your LOVE for those inanimate, lifeless musical devices being played in the assembly of living saints. So, would you boldly add your church to the list? Isn't that the one in Clemson, SC? Or, is it only work-in-progress at this stage?

You MAY able to convince a few folks that an addition of one more church or congregation to the list makes the church, the body of Christ, adherent to such form of musical idolatry. Try it.

Oh, back to the troublemakers in the church and in the country of law-abiding citizens:




Just days after Marxist Free Market Saboteur Steve Lerners plans for mass May Day national economic disruptions have become known via secretly caught exposure of a taped meeting with other extremists, now new evidence implicates the Obama White House in sedition. Regulatory Czar Cass Sunstein; his wife Samantha Power, Senior Director of the National Security Council; and Department of Justice Attorney General Eric Holder are key players in a related plot to dismantle and destroy America's Constitutional republic.

In April 2005, Sunstein opened a conference at Yale Law School sponsored by George Soros Open Society Institute entitled, "The Constitution in 2020. The event was designed as a forum to craft the agenda and assign the tasks for changing the nature and interpretation of the Constitution into a fully progressive Marxist Manifesto by the year 2020. Sunstein was a natural fit for the conference, as his 2004 book, The Second Bill of Rights: FDR'S Unfinished Revolution and Why We Need It More than Ever proposed a radical new document to replace Americas traditional Bill of Rights.

The conference was co-sponsored by the American Constitution Society, another hard Left Marxist organization which seeks to rewrite the Constitution. Attorney General Eric Holder not only previously served on the ACS Board of Directors, but is keynote speaker for their 2011 Convention.

The Obama faction onslaught against America is coming from all sides. A union thug with White House connections plots to crash the American economy while high ranking Obama officials seek to subvert the Constitution and Bill of Rights. We MUST compel Congress to open investigations and HALT the Obama wrecking crew that is daily dismantling America!

Recent audio has been released which outlines a very real plan to collapse the American economy - including crashing the stock market and disrupting the banking system - in an effort to finally and irrevocably bring about the fundamental change, radical change, Obama promised. The sinister plan is set to take place the first week of May... and evidence suggests the plan may go all the way to the White House.

Please read the above article in its entirety:


This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jun 4, 2013 1:14 PM

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April 20 2011, 2:35 AM 

Like I said Donnie....and you heard it right.....even if just ONE church of Christ uses instrumental music, and we are all sister congregations, THEN NO ONE can claim that the church of Christ is a capella. Several churches of Christ have kept the name. They could care less of you squealing about them being a community or saddleback influenced church. They are STILL a church of Christ. WHY? Because instrumental does NOT define who the church of Christ is. Jesus Christ defines the church.
So keep up your squealing Donnie. It will not matter...not even a little.
Ask your stupid questions about my church. I love my congregation. Wish you could say the same about yours.....
Donnie, your writing is leaning towards a fair amount of desperation. Have you noticed???
Hey man, if you can't whip em.......LOVE EM!!!!

I forgot Done......talking about love again....I realize that is a sore subject around you guys.

Donnie, it is best if you and William went back to grading the grammatical errors. Interpretation of the Word just isn't your forte.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Just one church will do it

April 20 2011, 4:34 AM 


I know you are very capable of initiating a new thread on "love." Why don't you? "I wanna know what love is." Um ... like ... um ... one who performs or plays the piano to and for the congregants has love; and all the other brethren who simply teach and admonish one another through singing have no love. Wow! You're awesome, dude. You know their hearts.

Did you notice a few of the churches listed above that dropped the name of Christ? Yes, the famous "Oak Hills Church [formerly 'of Christ']"

You may have a point about "just one church" going instrumental. I'm reminded of the passage: "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind," and the entire body, the church of Christ, became "instrumental." Great logic, Dave.

What about this: one congregation of the church of Christ was infiltrated by Roman Catholicism and began worshiping the Virgin Mary and venerating the dead "saints." And the entire church of Christ became the Roman Catholic Church.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Just one church will do it

April 20 2011, 9:36 AM 

Dave claims that if just one Church of Christ congregation uses instruments, then the ENTIRE Church of Christ as a whole can no longer say it practices a cappella worship. I believe that kind of "logic" is flawed...let's say wrecked.

Dave's "logic" would condemn an entire group of innocent people for one person's crime. Dave would condemn the righteous with the wicked. It's the same as saying that if one person in a town is guilty of murder, then all the other residents of that town are guilty of murder. It's the same as saying that if a car manufacturer turns out one "lemon," then all the cars from that company are lemons. That's asinine and completely insane. Yet that's the kind of unspeakable nonsense Dave and his change-agent cohorts would have us believe about the Church of Christ, just because a few rogue congregations have decided to join the denominations and implement instrumental music.

Be truthful: Only those few congregations that have instruments should drop the name "Church of Christ" and be cast away from the vast majority of our mainstream congregations that still adhere to the New Testament.

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Can't Get Away with It

May 10 2011, 9:52 PM 

I am not the one who is bashing the churches of our Lord. William, that is your domain. That is also Donnie's area. That is why you are cursed. You go after the Lord's church and you have a fight that you can't win.
I am here to make sure that you don't get away with it. For a while you guys enjoyed your solitude. No longer.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Can't Get Away with It

May 11 2011, 12:45 AM 

I see that Dave's message of May 10 was posted after a message from April 20. I guess Dave felt he had "overlooked" one of our messages, so he went back to squawk about it. You're behind your time, aren't you, boy? You've got to be faster than that if you want your "curses" to be effective. I understand they expire in short order. Of course, a "curse" coming from Dave is about as effective as a gelding trying to sire a jackass. wink.gif

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Dr. Bill Crump
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In All Seriousness...

May 11 2011, 2:45 AM 

In all seriousness, if Dave expects anyone to take him seriously, he'll need to ditch his god complex. Putting "curses" on people and telling them they don't love the Lord's church because they don't agree with Dave is fine if this were a movie about some wild-eyed fanatic screaming hell and damnation to everyone. But this is not Hollywood and Dave is not playing Elmer Gantry. I would ordinarily ask Dave to step back and take note of how really off-base and bizarre his comments have been. That wouldn't do any good, however, because Dave has been completely consumed by a god complex. The definition can be found on Wikipedia. Now as far as I'm concerned, Dave can put "curses" on us and rave until Doom's Day, because, frankly, it's utterly comical melodrama. Unfortunately, that kind of behavior destroys one's credibility as a serious poster, even though I'm sure Dave is sold on his comments. Therefore, I urge readers to take Dave's "extreme" comments with a grain of salt until such a time when he can get his overwrought emotions under control.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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April 20 2011, 11:15 AM 

Although Dave said the discussion about instrumental music was "over," he still stays up all hours of the night posting his penny-ante arguments about it. Dave says one thing, then turns around and does something else. happy.gif

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June 8 2011, 11:59 AM 

Would you guys just stop and think WWJD? for a minute, there are a lot more church of church all over the world that plays music than the list provide...and it does not change anything we are all children of God.. with the hope of seeing Him some day so let us embrace each other in love.. and stop all this foolishness ? Let us love one another 1John4:7-8

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Dr. Bill Crump
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June 8 2011, 5:09 PM 

Instead of trying to read Nicole's run-on and spliced sentences, let's try an edited version of her post:

"Would you guys just stop and think WWJD [What would Jesus do] for a minute? There are a lot more church of [Christ congregations] all over the world that play music than the list provides, and it does not change anything. We are all children of God with the hope of seeing Him some day, so let us embrace each other in love and stop all this foolishness. Let us love one another. 1 John 4:7-8."

BTW, Nicole, do you have some evidence to show us that "a lot more church of [Christ congregations] all over the world" have instrumental music, or is that just your personal opinion based on your desire to see all church of Christ congregations using musical instruments?

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April 20 2011, 8:12 AM 

I have never met you, but I do know that you have a troubled soul, one that shows a lack of love for your brothers who you disagree with.
Remember the concernedmembers site statement that I was speaking of the other day? The now famous saying goes " "No one here will admonish anyone for worshipping God in what ever manner they believe to be correct."

Wow, I can't believe that you guys would leave that in print. How many times have you cut people down on this site for disagreeing with you guys? Countless times. NO LOVE!
Donnie, you just don't call down the elders of your church here for public viewing and ridicule. That is blatant sin and nothing more. If you have something against them you should have taken this to them, privately, or if need be (with witnesses) in front of your congregation, but NEVER here. You KNOW better, but have chosen WILLFULLY to sin against your church, and more importantly, your Lord.

That was also foolish to try and parallel the issue of instrumental music with the Catholic worship of Mary.
The music has proved to be only of preferrence, where we know (maybe I shouldn't assume that you know this is wrong) the act of worshiping anyone else other than God is forbidden.
No Donnie, you don' have love and have chosen to look at the issue of music with both eyes blinded;.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

God prefers

April 20 2011, 12:30 PM 

Christ teaches HIS preferences: to think that you have a preference is called blasphemy.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way,
......and the unrighteous man his thoughts:
......and let him return unto the LORD,
......and he will have mercy upon him;
......and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
......neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, are my ways higher than your ways,
......and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven,
......and returneth not thither,
......but watereth the earth,
......and maketh it bring forth and bud,
......that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: shall not return unto me void,
......but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Let's face it: some people cannot confess that Jesus is Lord and they are not. If you don't get it you don't get it and no level of "scholarship" will let you in on Christ's secrets until you have been baptized INTO Christ. We are baptized not BY but INTO the Word of Christ. That is, we are inducted into disciplship to Jesus Christ and you cannot be a folower of Christ walking in His steps if you go into the MARKETPLACE religions where Jesus consigned the pipers, singers and instrument players.

When you deny clear statements of Scripture that means that you have been taken captive and need reprograming which probably wont work.

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I Wonder.....Some More

May 10 2011, 7:56 AM 

If you and Ken and Bill are enemies of the Lord's church, can you be brothers in the Kingdom also?

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Yes: we are not mortals

May 10 2011, 2:20 PM 

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)


April 21 2011, 3:02 AM 


You are almost as slick as the change agents. You quoted the following:
"No one here will admonish anyone for worshipping God in what ever manner they believe to be correct."
When you quote it next time, don't mislead the readers. Here's the accurate quote:
"No one here will admonish anyone for worshipping God in what ever manner they believe to be correct. However, when someone subverts an existing Church by secrecy and deceit against the principles of its founders and members...


The below listings are links to various church member sites where the members discuss what's happening at their church, and learn about the problems causing division and take-overs.

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What Do You Expect?

April 21 2011, 12:39 AM 

You still espousing the ole 'speak that which is written' theory, but then you don't speak that which is written.
Greek mythology, the book of Enoch (yes I am still looking for it....could it be after Isaiah???).
Worst of all, you try and speak for Jesus. YOU are the blasphemer. You try to interpret what Jesus says about music, and it is NOWHERE in site within the Scriptures.
It is just YOUR wishful thinking.
Ken, it looks like your mind has been blinded and shut down because you continue to be the devil's advocate.
You reap what you sow........

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Dave's Own Wishful Thinking

April 21 2011, 2:30 AM 


Your own wishful thinking is found in Psalm 150. But Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 say differently. In fact, the truth strongly emphasized in those passages is not even music. Rather, it is about this -- the REAL COMMAND: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one songs."

The REAL COMMAND in the other passage is this: "Speaking to yourselves in...songs....

Psalm 150 never indicates your claim that it is a God-ordained command. God has NEVER commanded His followers during the Old Testament era to worship Him with "the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of music..." (Daniel 3) as King Nebuchadnezzar did.

Have you read other passages in the OT showing King David's personal activities as a king and a very skilled musician, as a nudist [I might add, but don't let that upset you].

(1) Music history reveals that "music ... almost DEMANDS dancing [and clapping] where the body gyrates in sync" with the tempo and/or change of tempo of the music.

(2) Scripture plainly reveals that dancing and musical instruments and even idolatry are connected in many instances. Here are a few of several passages in Scripture for your reading pleasure:

  • And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances. (Exo. 15:20)

  • And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount. (Exo. 32:19)

  • And it came to pass as they came, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tabrets, with joy, and with instruments of music. (I Sam. 18:6)

  • Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp. (Psalm 149:3)

  • Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. (Psalm 150:4)

  • And it came to pass, as the ark of the covenant of the LORD came to the city of David, that Michal the daughter of Saul looking out at a window saw king David dancing and playing: and she despised him in her heart. (I Chron. 15:29)

  • Is not this David, of whom they sang one to another in dances, saying, Saul slew his thousands, and David his ten thousands? (I Sam. 29:5)

Dave, you keep reminding us that we do NOT have LOVE. And you do? You must be confusing the reader. Remember: "If ye LOVE me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS." Since I haven't met you and do not know you, it's not for me to say whether or not you have LOVE and KEEP His commandments. But I'll give you the benefit -- that you think about love as being other than "keeping His commandments"; i.e., that love can be demonstrated by the way "a brother in Christ" posts and responds to messages online. Is that it? If so, I believe that you can improve on that one.

Why improve on it? You have just personally labeled a brother in Christ as a "blasphemer" -- actually: "the blasphemer." If I were you I would just leave that to God's judgment.

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For A Season

April 21 2011, 9:02 AM 

Here is all of it verbatim TOGETHER for you Donnie...
"No one here will admonish anyone for worshiping God in what ever manner they believe to be correct. However, when someone subverts an existing Church by secrecy and deceit against the principles of its founders and members...

The fact remains that you men have lied. You said that there would be no admonishment. When you ADMONISH the very elders that you serve under, people will know quickly of your dishonesty and treachery here. Whether you have A PROBLEM with people you accuse of subverting other churches is NOT the issue. The issue is how you have dealt with it. You said that you would not admonish and YOU HAVE.

Donnie, the commandment to sing is not affected with or without musical instruments. Try as hard as you may but playing an instrument does not prohibit the singing, nor does it ADD to the commandment. It only AIDS the singing. Nothing more.

When you want to chide me for calling down Ken for blaspheming, how about taking a look at the only post for Ken in this thread. He starts with "Christ teaches HIS preferences: to think that you have a preference is called blasphemy."

That is what happens to people like you when God closes their ears and blinds their eyes. You don't see or listen and don't really care if people know that you don't see or hear either. I know this because you have been taught a better way.....not by me, but by Christ. You simply have chosen not to follow it. You want it your way instead of God's Way. For a season, you can eat drink and be merry, but then there will be a day where you have to pay your dues.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

We Have a Problem: When Someone Subverts....

April 24 2011, 3:00 AM 


Whenever you are pinned down in a religious discussion, you resort to accusing or labeling anyone who disagrees with you and who disproves your viewpoints as the one having "lied" or is "without love." If you were in a public religious debate, that would be tantamount to trying to convince the public that you are winning the debate in that your opponent is "without love" or that you are the one "with love."

You also have a problem with misquoting.

Your initial quote regarding ConcernedMembers was as follows:
No one here will admonish anyone for worshipping God in what ever manner they believe to be correct.

Then you opined:
"Wow, I can't believe that you guys would leave that in print. How many times have you cut people down on this site for disagreeing with you guys? Countless times. NO LOVE!"
Dave, there is nothing wrong with ConcernedMembers' statement regarding any church's liberty to worship as it wishes. How can any website possibly issue that directive to churches? CM is a website -- not "The Vatican" nor "The Watchtower."

Evidently, as I have already pointed out, and you finally noticed but still did not comprehend, there was more to your initial, partially-quoted statement. Again, here's the quote in its entirety:
"No one here will admonish anyone for worshipping God in what ever manner they believe to be correct. However, when someone subverts an existing Church by secrecy and deceit against the principles of its founders and members...


The below listings are links to various church member sites where the members discuss what's happening at their church, and learn about the problems causing division and take-overs.
You see, Dave, the following word "however" is significant. The emphasis is that it is a PROBLEM in the church or in the fellowship WHEN someone (e.g., a "CHANGE AGENT") SUBVERTS an EXISTING church by secrecy and deceit AGAINST the principles of its founders and members."

Not only that, Dave, but also that 3 links were provided to which the reader is directed to a discussion of "the problems causing division and takeovers" in the church.

The owners of this website had the foresight to warn congregations in the brotherhood and individual leaders and members of the church of the impending dangers, problems and issues that the church would be facing, if they weren't already in existence.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

"When you ADMONISH the very elders that you serve under...."

April 24 2011, 3:06 AM 

Dave, you said:
The fact remains that you men have lied. You said that there would be no admonishment. When you ADMONISH the very elders that you serve under, people will know quickly of your dishonesty and treachery here. Whether you have A PROBLEM with people you accuse of subverting other churches is NOT the issue. The issue is how you have dealt with it. You said that you would not admonish and YOU HAVE.

Every time you bring up the elders and the upheaval that occurred in the Madison congregation, I'm having to review the sequence of events. So, here it is briefly ... again [or read a series of threads, "What Happened at Madison This Week"]:
  • There was a "VISION 2000" in the nineties to expand the church facilities (costing millions of dollars) and grow the church membership numerically (since the church wasn't "mega" enough). [As of this writing, the "debt" has just been "fully paid." Finally.]
  • There was a group of "church leaders" who were commissioned to visit and learn from the successes of "gospel preaching" at the Saddleback Community Church in CA.
  • Preparations and instructions for the "Homebuilders Class," the "Holy Entertainment" practices (clapping, rhythmic handclapping, raising hands, praise teams) were under way.
  • The introduction of the overpowering "Praise Team" [of course, with their loud hand-held microphones] in the second assembly [then, both first and second assemblies were "traditional"] was the straw that broke the camel's back.
  • Meanwhile there was clearly a division in the eldership -- several of the elders resigned or left in the midst of the upheaval.
  • Meanwhile, hundreds of the members (half of the congregation) were leaving to seek fellowship somewhere else.
  • The final directive from the leadership: "[If you don't like it], get over it; we must move on."
  • The final "division" [with "unity in diversity" as the qualifier] was official, that assemblies will be: (1) traditional and (2) contemporary
  • When ConcernedMembers was born, the prevailing "winds of change" to "grow the church" according to Rick Warren's "The Purpose Driven Church" manual had already damaged the church. The best thing this website could do would be to warn other congregations and let lessons be learned from this unfortunate experience.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

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