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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

"PLAY Musical Instruments" Was NOT God's Command in O.T. and N.T.

April 24 2011, 3:21 AM 

Dave, no!!! People like me and churches of Christ [40,000-congregation strong worldwide including your own home church in SC] are not those whose ears are closed and whose eyes are blinded by God.

Did you ever think carefully and realize fully what you just accused me and the fellowship of?

The primary command in Colossians and Ephesians is NOT even singing, much less PLAYING musical instruments!!!

The primary command in the often-quoted passages is to: "LET THE WORD OF CHRIST DWELL IN YOU RICHLY in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one songs." It is qualified by "SPEAKING TO YOURSELVES in ... songs."

In the gathering of saints, besides commemmorating the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross, teaching and admonishing one another or being indwelt by the word of Christ" is also the other command.

Speaking or singing is simply a medium of conveyance of the word of Christ. Certainly, NOT musical devices!!!!!!

David was not in the assembly of God's people in Psalm 150.

You can use David's personal habits and attributes and preferences all you want as your guide to "worship" God in the ASSEMBLY [i.e., PUBLIC]. But it doesn't change the truth and fact that God NEVER commanded his saints and followers to assemble and play their instruments of music. You will not find such directive in either the Old Testament or the New Testament.

If you were to follow David's personal preferences, let me remind you to obey David's directives based on his personal experience:
  • ... when David was returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing ... with tabrets, with joy, and with instruments of music. (I Sam. 18:6)

  • Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp. (Psalm 149:3)

  • Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. (Psalm 150:4)

  • And it came to pass, as the ark of the covenant of the LORD came to the city of David, that Michal the daughter of Saul looking out at a window saw king David dancing and playing: and she despised him in her heart. (I Chron. 15:29)

  • Is not this David, of whom they sang one to another in dances, saying, Saul slew his thousands, and David his ten thousands? (I Sam. 29:5)

  • And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. (II Sam. 6:14)

  • So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. (II Sam. 6:15)

  • David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. (II Sam. 6:17)

  • How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! (II Sam. 6:20)

Or, are David's activities that cumbersome and inconvenient except for PLAYING musical instruments?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

No Phd selling the Word can grasp this.

April 24 2011, 12:57 PM 

Acts 7:42 Then God turned,
and gave them up to worship the host of heaven;
as it is written in the book of the prophets,
O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts
and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

Question: what is the names of the gods worshipped by the Jews?

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(no login)

The Hole Keeps Getting Deeper

April 24 2011, 3:47 PM 

Donnie, you asked me "Did you ever think carefully and realize fully what you just accused me and the fellowship of?"

Nice wording there. I like you you dishonestly TRIED to group the evil men here (including you) with the FELLOWSHIP?
You have betrayed the fellowship. You can claim a part of it all day long, but to publicly call out your elders in this wicked way will never make you a part of the fellowship....that is until you make a proper public confession.

Also you said "David was not in the assembly of God's people in Psalm 150."
Donnie, what do you consider a public assembly?
Does it consist of 300 people worshiping together, with suits and ties, and all the babies quietly tucked away in the nursery, so you can catch a quick nap during the sermon?
Matthew 18
20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)


April 24 2011, 4:11 PM 

Psalm 150 is NOT: it is Halal 150 meaning to make yourself vile when you go into war. David praised God in the firmament. Now, if you have been abandoned to worship the Starry Host that is where you try to ASCEND.

Christ defines the synagogue or Church of Christ and OUTLAWS loud instrumental rejoicing: when you attend synagogue you attend A School of the Word. You don't make instrumental noise when you are teaching "that which is written for our learning."

If you cannot name the gods Isreal worshipped as worship of the starry host, maybe you can tell us "what does a DISCIPLE of Christ do when He assembles?"

The unique worship Word for what Paul called "synagogue" is to give heed to the Word of Christ.

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(no login)

Psalm 150 Yields Heartburn For Unbelievers

April 24 2011, 5:23 PM 

Sorry Ken, Psalm 150 was in the Bible yesterday and today. I am sure it will there tomorrow also. Ken would very much like to discredit Psalm 150 because he knows it shows God's approval of instrumental music. Sorry Ken, God showed his approval and He never changed from that.

Ken, you know Paul was once a sinner also. That is true for all of us. God used David in His own way to give us His Word. Ken, who are you to question God and His Word?

Perhaps Ken is full of Halal?

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Some Say That a Mere List = God's Approval

April 24 2011, 7:34 PM 


In Psalm 150, "praise him with the ... DANCE" is listed. Therefore, such logic of yours implies God's approval of the dance and "never changed from that." Hmmm. OK, OK, OK. How many feel so subjected to using musical instruments, but not to dancing, "in worship"? Do you do one or the other, but not both? Why? Why not?

In verse 6, it says: "Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD." That includes everything else besides human beings. Could this be how the Roman Catholic Church derived the doctrine of bringing favorite pets to a gathering for the blessing of the pets?

Certainly, the entire Bible is a completely inspired God's Word, but we are to rightly divide the word of truth as the Bible is comprised of the books of law; history; books of songs and poetry (Psalm, Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon belong here); history; prophecy. Murder, theft, rebellion, idolatry and many other acts of mankind (both good and evil) are recorded in the Book.

No true disciple of Christ ever discredits Psalm 150. The discrediting occurs when one fully accepts the "acts of David," king of Israel and a very skilled musician, EXCEPT and UNTIL the following "worshipful activities" are encountered [already mentioned earlier]:

  • David danced before the Lord [try this at home first before doing it in the assembly]. (II Sam. 6:14)

  • When he danced before the Lord, he was "girded with a linen ephod." (II Sam. 6:14)

  • So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. (II Sam. 6:15)

  • David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD. (II Sam. 6:17)

  • How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! (II Sam. 6:20)

    [A nudist would not have a problem/an issue with this!!! Would this be considered "an abuse of power" on the part of David as king of Israel and as a man of God at the same time?
This means that: "COME ONE, COME ALL"; "OBEY ONE, OBEY ALL [of David's commands]."

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(no login)

Re: Psalm 150 Yields Heartburn For Unbelievers

April 25 2011, 10:52 AM 


2 TIM 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

Ken, one must first believe the Bible is the Inspired Word of God. That means God is in control of what the writer has put on paper. You must also believe that God is NOT out to deceive the reader. God has given us what he wants us to have in the Bible (no more or no less).

If you want to be a student of the Bible you must meet the Prerequisite.

ps: It would help if you didn't mix mythology with God's Word.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Psalm 150 Yields Heartburn For Unbelievers

April 25 2011, 5:41 PM 

Psalm 150 mentions instrumental music. The Psalms also mention burnt offerings and sacrifices. For example:

"I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows, Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble. I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah" (Psalm 66:13-15 KJV).

Psalm 66 was in the Bible yesterday and today. I am sure it will be there tomorrow also. Some Christians cite Psalm 150 as "proof" that God approves of instrumental music in Christian worship. Yet Psalm 150 mentions nothing about Christian worship. According to Psalm 66, God also approves of burnt offerings, yet those same Christians say that burnt offerings no longer apply today, because Jesus became our ultimate sacrifice:

"Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]" (Hebrews 10:8-10 KJV).

Alright, the New Testament shows that burnt offerings and sacrifices went out with the New Covenant. Likewise, there should be similar New Testament evidence that instrumental music is to be perpetuated with the New Covenant. Yet there is no such evidence. Since the change in Covenants brought changes in worship practices, why would the New Testament explicitly tell us to abandon burnt offerings but fail to mention instruments of all things, if the latter are so vital to Christian worship?

The answer is that worldly man made the erroneous assumption that instruments are to be carried over into Christian worship. That assumption is based on man's personal preferences and desires; it is based on the fallacious premise of "God didn't say not to," a premise designed to circumvent the New Testament; and it is based on absolutely nothing found in the New Testament.

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(no login)

Re: Psalm 150 Yields Heartburn For Unbelievers

April 25 2011, 8:45 PM 

Dr. Crump, drink a half cup of Maalox and get a good nights sleep. You should feel better in the morning. happy.gif

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(no login)

Re: Psalm 150 Yields Heartburn For Unbelievers

April 25 2011, 11:53 PM 

I think Dr. Crump nailed it. God approved instrumental music and never changed His mind. Does God ever change His mind?

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: The Hole Keeps Getting Deeper

April 24 2011, 8:42 PM 


Let's make a very simple deduction here for your benefit:

  1. The men of CM [including Donnie] are "the evil men here" because they do not support Dave's opinion that God commanded, approved of and is pleased with the use of musical objects in the assembly or gathering of saints. This is according to Dave's judgment of these "evil men."

  2. The fellowship of churches of Christ (40,000-congregations strong worldwide) is in favor of the teachings of Christ and His apostles and disagrees with Dave and his alignment with the change agents regarding the use of musical devices in the assembly.

  3. Therefore, since the brotherhood is with whom the men of CM are aligned and the men of CM are evil, the fellowship is evil--according to Dave.
Got it this time, Dave? Just trying to help you out with your logic.

So, how do you define an "assembly"? I agree with the passage you quoted. But you would have to prove to me that the setting or environment in Psalm 150 was similar to that of 2 or 3 or 100 gathered in Clemson, SC?

I'll admit that you may have a point, though. I'm even willing to help you with the scenario.

-- David and the ark of the covenant.
-- David offered burnt offerings.
-- David offered peace offerings.
-- In attendance was Michal, Saul's daughter.
-- Michal saw David LEAP and dance before the Lord.
-- In attendance were the servants and their handmaids.
-- In attendance was in fact the whole multitude of Israel.
-- Oxen and fatlings were sacrificed.
-- He was GIRDED with a linen ephod.
-- David danced before the Lord with ALL his MIGHT.
-- They had a cake of bread, meat and wine.
-- David UNCOVERED himself in the eyes of the handmaids.
-- David said, "I will PLAY before the Lord."
-- In case I missed anything, read II Samuel 6.

In regard to "the elders," I have no idea where you got brainwashed by thinking that they did not initiate the problem themselves. The fact is that there was division among the elders. How would you expect anything other than a divided house when the elders themselves were divided? Do not blame the members. Do not blame Donnie. Do not blame ConcernedMembers.

If anything, BLAME the change agents and their intrusive activities and interferences. They ought to leave peaceful congregations alone. The Madison congregation was undoubtedly a great city on the hill until the change agents made their conquest and wreaked havoc in the church. The good news is that Madison did not go "instrumental." The bad news is that recovery at Madison has been difficult.

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(no login)

Get Off That Long Black Train

April 24 2011, 8:52 PM 

Donnie, you said..."In verse 6, it says: "Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD." That includes everything else besides human beings. Could this be how the Roman Catholic Church derived the doctrine of bringing favorite pets to a gathering for the blessing of the pets?"

THAT is the essence of the problem Donnie....THAT very attitude. You DO NOT want the want to win an all costs....including your soul.

That comment from you was insidious and incompetent.
Again, you know better, but you have chose to show disdain for the Truth.
You want to ABUSE Scripture to win an argument. This response hinges on your attitude, not your response to Roncar. It will be WITHOUT rebuttal, for you certainly do not deserve nor will garner such a rebuttal. Even those outside the Lord would think that you are jesting. It is not funny.

Donnie, when David sang and dance and PLAYED before the Lord, THAT is what he meant when "Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD." Again, you knew that but you continue to mock the Scriptures. So because David played the lyre and other instruments that we don't use today, we can't follow Psalms 150 at all? If we don't dance as David did, then we can't do anything he did that was shown to praise God? Donnie, the best advice that you could take from anyone is to stop right now while your way behind.
Again, Donnie, you are in contempt of God's Word. Maybe if no one else will tell, know this....I was the first to do so, and I will continue to do so.
You have all but cursed your very self to hell by continuing to degrade King David, whom God loved deeply.
So talk about David being naked, and him dancing and playing, but know this. God loved David, and for some reason Donnie He still loves you, but if you don't think for a minute your satanic ways and antics will not lead you to hell, think again.
I know that this is falling on deaf ears, because you are most likely already beyond damage control. You rebuke the Lord's churches and hold their elders up for public ridicule....why should anyone expect anything better from you?
Donnie, I know you will not answer this, which is fine, but just think about it....if the Lord came right now.....would you expect anything less than hell?

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(no login)

You are the Problem

April 24 2011, 9:05 PM 

Blame someone Donnie?
YOU get the blame....let us concentrate on YOU.
YOU are to blame!

I Timothy 5
19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.

This onslaught was brought on by you. Name one other witness besides you.
Just one. You have brought these elders up for public ridicule then who would be another NAMED witness. Even if you could come up with another witness, listen to what the Word continues to say. Even if you don't listen, like you never have before, others will know of how wicked you are Donnie.

2 Timothy 2
25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Regardless of what you might say, and I know that you will continue your rant and excuse making, you have failed to do the will of God.
Failed miserably.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Prove that God approved of David's ACTIONS!

April 24 2011, 9:20 PM 

H5397 neshâmâh nesh-aw-maw' From H5395 ; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal:blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

If you cannot "make yourself vile" with ALL of those instruments used by the VILE then you are a hypocrite. Since poems tend to be poetic, if Halal 150 is not poetic then you have David COMMANDING that you use those instruments derived from the world of making war and prostitution."

God loves sinners: He NEVER approved of David's musical performance IN the Sancturary since he could not go INTO the sanctuary: the exception when he was starving proves the rule that neither David nor any Levite ever played a musical instrument in a Holy Place typicle of the Church.

Since God abandoned the nation to WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST all bible readers and the Jewish encyclopedia and all writers during this period then you are PROMOTING the worship of the starry host instead of the Creator of the stars.

Under "Star Worship" the Jewish Encyclopedia states:

"Star Worship" is perhaps the oldest form of idolatry practiced by the ancients. The observation of the stars in the East very early led the people to regard the planets and the fixed stars as gods. The religion of the ancient Egyptians is known to have consisted preeminently of Sun-worship. Moses sternly warned the Israelites against worshipping the Sun, Moon, stars, and all the hosts of heaven (Deuteronomy 4:19; 17:3). The Israelites fell into this kind of idolatry and as early as the time of Amos they had the images of Siccuth and Chium, 'the stars of their god' (Amos 5:26); the latter name is generally supposed to denote the planet Saturn. That the Kingdom of Israel fell earlier than that of Judah is stated (II Kings 17:16) to have been due, among other causes, to its worshipping the host of heaven.

But the Kingdom of Judah in its later period seems to have outdone the Northern Kingdom [Israel] in star-worship." Of Manasseh it is related that he built altars to all the hosts of heaven in the two courts of the house of YHWY, and it seems it was the practice of even Kings before him to appoint priests who offered sacrifices to the Sun, the Moon, the planets, and all the hosts of heaven. Altars for star-worship were built on the roofs of the houses, and horses and chariots were dedicated to the worship of the Sun. (II Kings 21:5; 23:4-5, 11-12) Star-worship continued in Judah until the 18th year of Josiah's reign (621 B.C.) when the King took measures to abolish all kinds of idolatry. But although star-worship was then abolished as a public cult, it was practiced privately by individuals who worshipped the heavenly bodies, and poured out libations to them on the roofs of their houses (Zephaniah 1:5; Jeremiah 8:2; 19:13) Jeremiah, who prophesied in the sixth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin (591 B.C.) describes the worship of the Sun as practiced in the court of the Temple (Ezekiel 8:16) and that even after the destruction of the Temple the women insisted on continuing to worship the Queen of Heaven.
"The ancient Hebrews, being nomads like the Arabs, favored the Moon, while the Babylonians, who were an agricultural nation, preferred the Sun. But, as appears from Ezekiel 20:7-8 the Moon-worship of the Israelites, even while they were still in Egypt was combined with Sun-worship."

Maybe you guys are PREDESTINED?

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(no login)

Re: Prove that God approved of David's ACTIONS!

April 25 2011, 4:22 PM 

Ken, I believe the Bible is the Inspired Word of God. I believe what you read in Psalm 150 is approved by God.

You do not believe it is the Inspired Word of God so you make it whatever YOU want it to be. Your issues are between you and God.

Praise ye the Lord!

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

According to Dave, Donnie Is the Problem

April 24 2011, 11:01 PM 


According to Dave [YOU], Donnie is the problem and is, therefore, responsible for implementing the Community Church's scheme to "grow the church" at Madison. That Donnie taught Madison Rick Warren's culture-driven philosophy from his manual: "The Purpose Driven Church." That Donnie caused the elders to be divided between these decisions: (1) should Madison go the Community Church way or (2) should Madison remain peaceful and a city on the hill without influences by the change agents? That Donnie caused the division in its membership where hundreds of members left in droves.

Well, Dave, it is unfortunate that you've come to that conclusion. Where's your source of information?

Although ConcernedMembers was not even conceived until way AFTER the leadership had already succumbed to the slick and subtle but destructive ways of the agents of change, with the intrusion and the subversion process virtually complete, at least it was there to observe firsthand what was going on. (And some poor and unknown--and is still--Donnie joined CM even later than that.)

Again, your conclusion that Donnie was/is the problem and caused the havoc in the church, is purely a prevarication on your part.

Here we are discussing "instrumental music" ... supposedly. And you, Dave, just can't help but bring up "the elders" issue. And I have patiently explained it over and over to you. But nothing has sunk in. Just what is your problem? Are you no longer an elder yourself?

While the Scripture teaches that we are to "rebuke not an elder" [and I haven't done that] and that the elders are to "be counted worthy of double honour" [and I am for that], it is contingent upon:

(1) That the elders rule well;
(2) That they are to labor in word and doctrine;
(3) That they are to be blameless;
(4) That they are holding fast the faithful word...
(5) ... as they have been TAUGHT.
(6) [I'm sure you know all the other qualifications]

Well, Dave, I have no control over wrong decisions they make. And you know, too, that they're no longer human if they no longer make mistakes and no longer take responsibility for those mistakes.

The truth of the matter is that you are one of those in the church who continue to preach your own denominationally-acquired teachings and beliefs. If there is nothing else for you to remember, know that you are the one going against the grain--the fellowship of churches of Christ will remain as non-followers of your gospel of musical instruments that you and the change agents propagate. Don't be ignorant of church history about division to let history repeat itself. Remember 1906 -- if you even know what occurred then.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

A deep spiritual or psychological failure?

April 24 2011, 11:55 PM 

Why do you suppose that at no level of scholarship, fame or fortune that almost no one--even those professioned seeing Godliness as a means of financial gain--can discern the difference between:

1. David the King and chief commander of the army following the universal pattern of composing battle tunes.

2. And Christ defining the Church in the wilderness both inclusive and exclusive which had a set-time-place each Sabbath (Rest) day and known as a School of the Word (only).

That is about as deranged as turning church into "a theater for holy entertainment" as purpose driven by the Madisonites.

And knowing that Psalms are poetic and poems temd to be poetic cannot grasp that you cannot get up into the firmament and praise Jehovah with several instruments at the same time: kinda like a one man band.

The tabulation of musical passages "contains a rather disproportionate number of metaphorical sentences, where music or its instruments are not to be understood literally but are used as similies or rhetorical figures. The most celebrated of these poetical passages is Paul's glorification of love in I Cor. 13." (Interpreter's Dict of the Bible, Music, p. 466).

The Apostolic Constitution by those called The Church of Christ notes:

Apostolic Constitutions of the Church of Christ c. 200 ad.

(1) come, whether it be man or woman, or charioteer, or dueller, or racer, or player of prizes, or Olympic gamester, or one that plays on the pipe, on the lute, or on the harp at those games, or a dancing-master or an huckster,

(2) either let them leave off their employments, or let them be rejected. If a soldier come, let him be taught to "do no injustice, to accuse no man falsely, and to be content with his allotted wages:"

(3) if he submit to those rules, let him be received; but if he refuse them, let him be rejected. He that is guilty of sins not to be named, a sodomite, an effeminate person, a magician, an enchanter, an astrologer, a diviner, an user of magic verses, a juggler, a mountebank, one that makes amulets, a charmer, a soothsayer, a fortune-teller, an observer of palmistry; he that, when he meets you, observes defects in the eyes or feet of the birds or cats, or noises, or symbolical sounds:

let these be proved for some time, for this sort of wickedness is hard to be washed away; and if they leave off those practices, let them be received; but if they will not agree to that, let them be rejected.

That is much milder than getting EXECUTED if a harpist went INSIDE of the Holy Place of the Temple. Out! Out! Out in the parking lot with the blood, smoke and dung.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: According to Dave, Donnie Is the Problem

April 25 2011, 11:39 AM 

When people reject Dave's faulty theology, Dave turns on them and makes them out to be the villains. Often, he says his opponents have "no love." At other times, Dave behaves like a woman scorned when a man rejects her seductions. She turns her rage on the man and accuses him of sexual harassment and rape. In other words, that scorned woman prevaricates. Donnie rejects Dave's pro-IM seductions, so Dave rages that Donnie has caused havoc in the church. Like the scorned woman, a scorned Dave prevaricates.

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(no login)

Re: According to Dave, Donnie Is the Problem

April 25 2011, 6:15 PM 

Dr. Crump, perhaps your spare time would be better spent reading medical journals instead of cheap romance novels. happy.gif

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Jimmy Joe
(no login)

A little off subject but I have a question

April 25 2011, 5:50 PM 

I cannot believe you have not commented on the 10:30 Easter service at Madison. I know you were there as I checked the critics pew late in the service. I personally found it uplifting and I thought the hypothetical view of the Roman soldier was very interesting. I don't know if you were too astonished to respond or it's taking you a while to arrange your thoughts.

Give us a feedback if you deem it worthy.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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