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(no login)

Nitty Gritty

April 25 2011, 7:51 AM 

In several of my posts I have said time and time again that the problems wasn't that the elders made mistakes, as you have claimed, but the problem is that YOU rebuked the elders in a public forum, such as here.

In all of that incoherent diatrible of your last post, you said this...."While the Scripture teaches that we are to "rebuke not an elder" [and I haven't done that] and that the elders are to "be counted worthy of double honour" [and I am for that], it is contingent upon:..."

The slick wily syndrome has taken a hold of Donnie for some time now.
Donnie, it is NOT contingent upon ANYTHING.
You have no good intentions here. NONE! You could have/should have settled this matter within the church, but that is not how a wolf in sheep's clothing does it.
You want an audience. Well you got it, but you forgot that part of your audience consist of God also.
You also lied in the above statement when you said that you haven't rebuked and elder. Do you need proof? No, Donnie, you don't have to name names, for when you mentioned the name Madison and the church leaders, you have sinned.
You need to repent!

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(no login)


April 25 2011, 8:56 AM 

Donnie said the following...."While the Scripture teaches that we are to "rebuke not an elder" [and I haven't done that] and that the elders are to "be counted worthy of double honour" [and I am for that], it is contingent upon:...."

This is his letter to the elders, where HE NAMES specific elders. Donnie, this IS a public rebuke, and it is NOT contingent upon anything. You could have done this within the church, but yet you wanted to spend someone's (maybe your own) hard earned money to acquire this evil website to hold the elders up for public ridicule. In the end, the church will go on and thrive, while you have sinned and need to repent. Donnie, you have the key to stopping the truth (again). You can always ban me from posting. It will take care of everything.

The LETTER from Donnie starts this way...

"Donnie C. Cruz: Letter to Elders Madison Church of Christ, Nashville
"Get Over It!" Is NOT the Solution; Only the Elders Can Stop the Disruption by the "Change Agents" -- NOW!

Note: This letter has already been sent to each of the elders of the church of Christ at Madison, as well as to other individuals who needed to be informed. By publishing this letter, it is my hope and prayer that some responsible action will be taken by the shepherds of this body of believers to restore what Madison used to be and have ... before it is too late!

-----DATE: January 12, 2002

-----FROM: Donnie C. Cruz


The Elders of the Madison Church of Christ: William E. Bennett, Dale Bishop, John Broadway, Joe Corley, Norman "Buck" Dozier, Chris Gingles, Howard W. Henderson, Thomas Hoppes, Russ Kersten, Charles E. Link, Ken Rice, Norman Slate, Ray Wilson"

The rest of the letter is just Donnie sore about the way he doesn't get his way and wants to pout like a child. I wish he was a child, for a child would not know how to be so wicked and start a satanic monster such as concerned members. A child would pout for a few minutes and get over it.
Donnie wants to groove a personal grudge against the Lord's church.

So Donnie, by publishing this letter in a public way you have sinned by putting the elders, and it doesn't matter if it is only part of the elders, up for public ridicule. Also you lied when you said that you haven't rebuke them. Remember this, NO MATTER HOW you disagree with them, to hold them up for public ridicule is a sin.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)


April 25 2011, 1:39 PM 

So Dave is eager to cast the first stone! Dave evidently assumes that a letter--any letter--written to the elders of a church and published on a web site is designed to ridicule and rebuke those people. I find it interesting that Dave merely quoted the names of the elders mentioned in the letter, but he conveniently chose not to quote the whole letter. If there were obvious tones of ridicule and harsh rebuke in the letter, why didn't Dave republish them to prove his point?

An elder who lives as a faithful Christian is not to be rebuked by his congregation. A backsliding elder is something else. Suppose an elder is guilty of theft or murder. Is the congregation to sit back passively and say nothing, because it is supposedly "always sinful to rebuke an elder"? Observe:

"Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality" (1 Tim. 5:19-21 KJV).

This passage tells us that no one, including an elder, is above reproach if they engage in sinful acts. There is to be no partiality.

Although the Internet was not available in the first century, it is in the 21st century. Any letter addressed to the elders of any church and published via the Internet becomes public; hence, all those who read it become witnesses to any questions or accusations made against those elders.

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(no login)

Love is Key

April 25 2011, 5:02 PM 

Did you hear me Bill?
You know and so does Donnie that there was no need to rebuke the elders here on a public forum. Again, it shows the childish immature nature of men such as you who choose not to grow up. You believe that there is a double standard: one for you and then one for all other Christians.
It could and SHOULD HAVE BEEN handled within the confines of the Madison congregation.
If the elders were wrong, then take witnesses and if need be, if a private confrontation would not solve the problem, then take it in front of the congregation, but NEVER.....NEVER here for millions to see it. It IS wrong and sinful. In the process of fulfilling your selfish desires you have put the church up for public mockery because you simply, like a child, could not get your way. Furthermore, you know it to be sinful, but you are seeking after your own selfish desires instead of what God would have. Unfortunately Bill, seeking after what God wants you to do involves LOVE! You men don't seem to know what love is.
Bill, think about this.... Donnie is a member of Madison, and you and I are not. I have shown more love for Madison than the both of you put together. Madison is beautiful, regardless of your curses.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Love is Key

April 25 2011, 8:36 PM 

Since Dave feels that he has been backed into a corner, I can understand why he manifests such anxiety and hostility. It is ironic, however, that one such as Dave would talk about "love" out of one side of his mouth and spray such anxiety and hostility out of the other side.

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(no login)


April 25 2011, 5:08 PM 

Bill, you said...."Although the Internet was not available in the first century, it is in the 21st century. Any letter addressed to the elders of any church and published via the Internet becomes public; hence, all those who read it become witnesses to any questions or accusations made against those elders."

This is how I know that you will go to any and all lengths to win an argument, although it has NOTHING to do with doing the Will of God.

ALL who read this become witnesses??? ALL would include those outside the Lord?
You see the depth of your ridiculousness? What is even worse, those who ARE outside the Lord....would they care to be a part of something like this?
It is pathetic. You men need to repent....NOW!

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Satanic

April 25 2011, 6:56 PM 

Doc quoted:

"I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows, Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble. I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah" (Psalm 66:13-15 KJV).

Christ spoke through the prophets: not the unlawful king

Hosea 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

Micah 6:6 ¶ Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

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(no login)

Speak Up and Remove All Doubt

April 26 2011, 3:18 AM 

William said "Since Dave feels that he has been backed into a corner..."

If I feel that way, pray tell William where I showed in words where I felt that way?

William really isn't very hard to show how evil your slanderous tongue do it yourself. You are worse that the tabloids. Telling someone what they REALLY say and said.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

That Ole Caged Feeling

April 26 2011, 9:26 AM 

If Dave didn't feel that he was backed into a corner, he wouldn't be SO defensive, antsy, and persistently hostile. His "caged" feelings are evidently keeping him awake into the wee hours of the morning and compelling him to pound his anger into the computer.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Dave's Faulty Assumptions

April 26 2011, 4:32 AM 


You manifest your anger and hostility in many of your posts. Do you realize that?

With regard to the use of musical instruments in the assembly (where 2 or 3 or more are gathered), here are a few points you ought to consider:

  • You cannot prove that God ever commanded His followers in the Old Testament era to use inanimate and lifeless musical devices in worship.

  • You cannot prove that God ever commanded His followers in the New Testament era to use inanimate and lifeless musical devices in the gathering of saints.

  • You cannot find a single passage in Scripture that God ever approved mechanical music in worship nor was pleased with its operation.

  • Your pick-and-choose theology is apparent: you are willing to obey "David's command" to "praise God" with instruments, but you are unwilling to obey David's other commands associated with his worship. You will find these in II Samuel 6:

    -- David and the ark of the covenant.
    -- David offered burnt offerings.
    -- David offered peace offerings.
    -- In attendance was Michal, Saul's daughter.
    -- Michal saw David LEAP and dance before the Lord.
    -- In attendance were the servants and their handmaids.
    -- In attendance was in fact the whole multitude of Israel.
    -- Oxen and fatlings were sacrificed.
    -- He was GIRDED with a linen ephod.
    -- David danced before the Lord with ALL his MIGHT.
    -- They had a cake of bread, meat and wine.
    -- David UNCOVERED himself in the eyes of the handmaids.
    -- David said, "I will PLAY before the Lord."

    In essence, Dave is willing to obey David's command to worship God with instruments. Everything else Dave deems as not to be obeyed, but rather is cumbersome and embarrassing. (Of course, I don't know if Dave is a good dancer just like the king of Israel.) Why not go all the way with the king's preferences?

  • You want to add or change God's directive for His followers:

    (1) FROM teaching and admonishing one another in ... songs
    (2) TO attending a musical concert in the Performing Arts Center.

  • Dave's analogy of equating musical instruments with the PA system, the hymnbook, the kitchen sink, the indoor toilet is ludicrous and is comparing apples and oranges.

  • Dave does not acknowledge that virtually all churches of Christ (40,000-congregation strong worldwide) do not play musical instruments in their assemblies.

  • Dave is incapable of understanding music history dealing with the introduction of IM in the Christian Church.

  • Dave is an ardent follower of the change agents (unbeknownst to him) who are destructive to the body of Christ.

Well, it's late. I'm sure that's not all the points I can think of. You need to calm down, Dave.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

From Jimmy Joe: A little off subject but I have a question

April 26 2011, 4:32 AM 

Jimmy Joe (no login)
A little off subject but I have a question (April 25 2011, 5:50 PM)

I cannot believe you have not commented on the 10:30 Easter service at Madison. I know you were there as I checked the critics pew late in the service. I personally found it uplifting and I thought the hypothetical view of the Roman soldier was very interesting. I don't know if you were too astonished to respond or it's taking you a while to arrange your thoughts.

Give us a feedback if you deem it worthy.

Jimmy Joe,

Thanks for asking.

Did you see me "taking notes"? happy.gif

Yes, it was indeed the "Easter service" in the eyes of those following the "Progressive" Church Movement. I wonder how many visitors were there in attendance and who left with the impression that we observe the Lord's Supper annually only.

The message was OK. It was a very well-executed "worship choreography." The 4-men quartet was a distraction to me when they PERFORMED while we were partaking of the Lord's Supper. I can't imagine the apostles and the early Christians reacting to being sung to during the Lord's Supper. I'm glad they do not perform all the time.

In past years, even the balcony would be overcrowded at this "yearly" event. But not in the last few years since the upheaval. How accurate is the count of 1,650 to 1,750 per Sunday as compared to the 3,000+ in years past? Another question: Do you notice the same thing I do that in the balcony, the CHOIR [i.e., "Church of Christ CHOIR"] is overpowering? I just do not hear the regular members singing.

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(no login)

Re: From Jimmy Joe: A little off subject but I have a question

April 26 2011, 7:11 PM 

Brother Cruz,

Can you please elaborate on your point about taking notes, followed by a face smiling? What were you specifically trying to communicate?


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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Singers silence Jesus

April 26 2011, 7:26 PM 

The Lord's Supper is to show forth the death of Christ: it is the only congregational preaching concept. When people make you look and listen to them they intend to keep your mind off Jesus.

Donnie, does that count Tom Haddon's "daughter" congregation?

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Singers silence Jesus

April 29 2011, 3:54 AM 


I'm not sure of the current counting system. I do recall when there was a separate count for Tom Haddon's "daughter" congregation--which does not bear the name "of Christ." I'll try to find the guide that shows the records for that Sunday.

I'm looking at one for January 9, 2011 showing the attendance = 1685.

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(no login)

What Do You Expect?

April 26 2011, 9:49 AM 

You are like a broken record, and one that has a arsenic tongue. As I said before, you know a better way, but have chosen not to follow it.

Donnie, I noticed where a REAL member from Madison called you out for being on the critic's pew. He knows like most there that you just don't fit in there. If all you do is sling slander towards the church, then claim from dawn til the setting sun, but you aren't a member of the Lord's church. A member of our Lord's church would rather build up than tear down the brotherhood.
Jimmy Joe asked you a specific question about the Roman soldier's view, and you avoided answering the question altogether and took the opportunity to lash out at the church again. Instead of making meaningful comments on what Jimmy Joe asked, you put down the singing (calling it a choir), spoke about the "Progressive" Church movement, the worship choreography, singing during the Lord's supper, and how you ASSUMED that a visitor might think that the church only observes the Lord's supper annually. You also got your dig in about how Madison hasn't recovered from the supposed FALL (the FALL in your mind only). Nearly 1800 isn't enough. The last one about the visitors assuming that about the Lord's supper is just your condemnation of the whole service. I wasn't even there Donnie, but it shows your hatred towards the brotherhood because there is no way that one could assume from such a worship that the Lord's Supper is only taken annually.
It proves just how far your mind has gone downhill Donnie. You just can't say anything good about people anymore.

Psalsm 81
11 But my people would not listen to me;
Israel would not submit to me.
12 So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts

Is that calm enough for you Donnie?
You go after the Lord's church and you can best expect hostility. The Lord's army will prevail and you will lose Donnie. You and the whole pack of wolves here at concerned members, even with your sheep's clothing, never have fooled anyone.

to follow their own devices.

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(no login)

Ken, Tear Down and You Will Get Tore Down Eventually

April 27 2011, 7:40 PM 

Like always, you talk bad about the church while I try to build it up.
Here is the GOOD stuff on Ton Haddon.

'Operation Dad' swells to include 6,000 men - and women - deployed in Middle East
JOY MCMILLON | The Christian Chronicle

'Operation Dad'
Madison Church of Christ member Tonya Billingsley puts several items into a baggie and backpack for use by soldiers of the 506th Brigade Combat Team. The 506th was the recipient of Operation Dad, a community effort spearheaded by the Madison Church of Christ.
The Madison, Tenn., church is sending 6,000 gift packages this week one to every member of the U. S. Armys 506th Combat Brigade deployed in the Middle East in honor of Father's Day.

Operation Dad began three weeks ago when a chaplain at Ft. Campbell, Ky., asked Shannon Brown if her church would provide Fathers Day gifts for 200 men who regularly attend Sunday worship where Browns husband is serving in Afghanistan.

But Involvement Minister Tom Haddon, who teaches a Bible class that Brown attends, said Madison wanted to expand the project to include everyone in the brigade.

We thought everyone there could use some encouragement, and the soldiers need to know they havent been forgotten, Haddon said.

The church expected about 500 additional names and were surprised to learn there were 6,000 men and women serving in the 506th in Iraq and Afghanistan, Haddon said.
Madison members contributions and citywide appeals have resulted in thousands of donated gifts from hundreds of individuals and corporations in the area.

Bundled in child-sized backpacks, the gifts range from personal items and snacks to disposable cameras. They also include a small stuffed animal and two handwritten notes of encouragement one for a soldier and one for an Iraqi or Afghani child.

The backpacks and toy will be re-gifted to these children, said Kay Nickell, worship ministry coordinator.

The donations have filled the church gymnasium, which has opened daily to receive contributions and welcome the visitors that have sorted items, stuffed bags and packed the backpacks.

Organizers expected to meet their goal of 6,000 boxes in time to ship them for receipt by Father's Day on June 15.

Its chaos here right now, said Nickell. But its a God thing. No one else could have put this thing together in such a short period of time.

Nickell said the donations are not an indication about how people feel about the war, but rather a token of love and appreciation for our soldiers.

I feel so blessed, said Brown, who delivered the initial request for gifts. I couldnt believe all the support we have gotten from the church and the community.

She said her husband and other soldiers will no doubt be surprised when each one gets a package and a personal note telling them that people are praying for them every day. I think that is the greatest message we can send them.

To help contribute toward the $30,000 cost of shipping the gifts, visit the Madison congregation's Web site. Any funds received over the cost of shipping will be used to purchase additional gifts for the soldiers

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Thats wonderful

April 27 2011, 9:01 PM 

Churches cannot pack their bags: only individuals. As far as I know they still count 300 in jail. Churches don't go to jai.

The only mandate of a church is to "teach that which has been written for our learning." People are just not happy unless they are making people work, work, work, pay, pay, pay,suffer, suffer, suffer. The devil makes them do it.

In any side-track, any "ministry" usually involves only a handfull of people so the rest of the people can claim "our church does."

When people lie, cheat, steal and silence the voice of Jeus Christ there is NOTHING they can do: the evidence is that they cannot even repent. If a person who saw a pickled brain gets a profession as a brain surgeon, there is nothing he can do to repent.

Paul commanded that we TEACH one another with Psalms, hymnns and spiritual songs: this is what has been recorded of the good, bad and ugly of Israel and others. It is terminally immature if people ignore the history and SANG and play their idea of the Psalms as an ACT OF WORSHIP. That is defined as blasphemy

and rank legalism.

Psalms 9:1 I will praise thee, O LORD, with my whole heart; I
will shew (narate) forth all thy marvellous works.

David praised the works of God and not the works of the "worship team." To praise or glorify God you must use the record of HIS WORKS or "that which is written for our learning" Rom. 15. David praised WITH his heart.

Narro , vi, tum, 1, v. a. for gnarigo (gnarigavit, Fest. p. 95) from gnarus; Sanscr. gn, know; Gr. gignsk; cf.: nosco (gnosco), ignoro, to be the subject of talk, it is said of me, thee, etc
I. to tell, relate, narrate, report, recount, set forth (syn.: memoro, nuntio, trado).
narrare, to inform one's self, learn:
II. Transf., in gen., to say, speak, tell: Hence, narro tibi, I tell you, I assure you, in fact, seriously, a form of asseveration:

Greek h3035 Yadayaw-daw' A primitive root; used only as denominative from H3027 ; literally to use (that is, hold out) the hand; physically to throw (a stone, an arrow) at or away; especially to revere or worship (with extended hands); NOT WAVING ARMS

H5608 sâphar saw-far' A primitive root; properly to score with a mark as a tally or record, that is, (by implication) to inscribe, and also to enumerate; intensively to recount, that is, celebrate:commune, (ac-) count, declare, number, + penknife, reckon, scribe, shew forth, speak, talk, tell (out), write

He NARRATES only the wonderful Works God has done: only God can supply that information

He NARRATES to supply the knowledge FROM God: the Prophets and Apostles says the whole Bible and the PSALMS are classivied as THE WRITINGS and the Jews understood that to define the Civil-Military history of the nation.

If Madison fed, clothed, housed and consoled all of the warriors in the world that could never atone for "being ignorant of God's Word"

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of Gods righteousness,
....and going about to establish their own righteousness,
.... have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness every one that believeth.

The ONLY thing a believer can do is be a DISCIPLE: disciples never tell the master what to teach unless he wants to be burned. All of the rest is "to be seen of men" and no one has boasted of their "growth" than Madison. I had Ira North in 6th grade Bible: Romans

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Fred Whaley
(no login)

Re: Thats wonderful

April 29 2011, 6:13 PM 

Not true Ken! Ken says "the only mandate of a church is to 'teach that which has been written for our learning.' People are just not happy unless they are making people work, work, work, pay, pay, pay,suffer, suffer, suffer. The devil makes them do it."

Is this really the only mandate of a church? The church is not to serve and maintain good works nor break the communion bread nor praying or helping widows and Fred could mention so many more of these but has already said enough to make the point.

Ken's statement that the only mandate of a church is to "teach"... is WRONG and FALSE.

Fred Whaley

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(no login)

Good News!

April 28 2011, 12:11 AM 

If you notice at the end of your last response Ken, you cut yourself off, for some reason.
Whatever the reason, I would like to thank you.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)


April 28 2011, 2:34 PM 

Let Doc describe colons to you.

I thought that you would like to know that I have upgraded my MELODY paper.
The Bible, David and all recorded history repudiates modern meter which is mechanical which is to say, legalistic. The word is NOMOS.

The Hebrew accents are to make certain that you CANNOT change the meaning of an inspired text by even the tone of your voice. All of you musicators, says Christ, have no light in you.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

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