Buff the Reformer Leroy Garrett and Grace Centered LarryApril 29 2011 at 11:43 AM
|Ken Sublet (Login Ken.Sublett)|
from IP address 184.108.40.206
The Great Baptismo: Instrumental music in a worship setting. In the context of this discussion it is a distinctive among churches with the name "Church of Cghrist"who arose out of the "Restoration Movement" in the early 1800's:
Only in the land of Hollywood, Dollywood and the Grand Ole Opry did music rise to an entertainment status
It is a fact that the Church of Christ is defined as the church in the wilderness."
It was INCLUSIVE of Rest, Reading and Rehearsing The Word of God (only)
It was EXCLUSIVE of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing."
None of the denominations which flowed into the Church of Christ used "machines for doing hard work" by direct command and minimal IQ which does not make instrumental noise when Christ speaks; the ONLY Person with a right to speak.
Those who use instruments are TASKED to try to keep anyone from speaking the truth.
Hebrew singing or rhymic prose had no fixed meter: "Since in all languages a sentence changes its meaning by mere intonations without adding or removing nounds, verbs or particles, the Syrian scholars who laid the fundament of correct language discovered a way by devising accents... and since these accents are a form of musical modulation,
there is no possibliity of learning them except by hearing and through tradition from the master's tongue or the pupils hear. It follows from Bar Hebraeus' statement that
the main concern was to secure an unadulterated and unadulterable version of the text
This required (a) correct vocalization and (b) correct intonation. (p.87) " Nor is there a constant number of feet in a verse. Hebrew poetry is poetic p;rose. "Hebrew prosedy differes fundamentlly from classical prosody. No poem is written according to a repeating meter scheme.
Classical verse is mechanical; Hebrew verse is dynamic (p 89. Music in Ancient Western Orient Curt Sachs
We have noted already that:
The godly Jews who rested on the Prophets (by Christ) understood:
To the law and to the testimony:
if they speak not according to this word,
it is because there is no light in them. Isa 8:20
The Law said nothing about instruments (can't grasp it?)
The Testimony is the prophets by Christ.
ALL OF RECORDED HISTORY repudiated Instruments as indeed Simple Simons knew that you cannot really get an instrument to follow PROSODY where sing is more conversational.
The literature is certain that instruments had a sound which poured more "energy" into the act and pagans believed that it was very hard to break through and get the "gods." Normal words do not get the attention of the "gods" and that is why the sequence of words have no real meaning. The gods (demons) were believed to live in instruments or the instruments were the "gods." So, the "scholars" have really cracked away to the archaic:
"Music, like the word, also may have symbolic meaning. The basic elements out of which musical symbolism is built are sounds, tones, melodies, harmonies,
and the various musical instruments,
........among which is the human voice.
Sound effects can have a numinous (spiritual) character and
........ may be used to bring about contact with the realm of the holy.
A specific tone may call one to an awareness of the holy, make the holy present, and produce an experience of the holy. This may be done by means of drums, gongs, bells, or other instruments.
The ritual instruments can, through their shape or the materials from which they are made, have symbolic meaning. The Uitoto in Colombia, for example, believe that all the souls of their ancestors are contained in the ritual drums. (See liturgical music.)
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 220.127.116.11 on May 13, 2011 5:07 PM|
Re: The Great Baptismo still bashing the Church of Christ
|April 29 2011, 2:11 PM |
I guess I don't get it. What is Max Moon trying to say? Anyone?
|Even at their highest level of incompeten|
There is no grace for being ANTI-church of Christ centered
|April 29 2011, 5:27 PM |
Even at their highest level of incompetence, the musical invaders love to claim that churches of Christ were invented in the 1800s and originated the NOT USING instruments. None of the "worship teams" (like "making love for you" teams) can resist being a "vocal band" because the praise ditties are written for instruments and not communication or education.
Plato in Republic 3
Certainly, he said; that is the model which such a speaker must necessarily take.
.......But there is another sort of character who will narrate anything, and,
.......the worse lie is, the more unscrupulous he will be;
.......nothing will be too bad for him: and he will be ready to imitate anything, not as a joke,
.......but in right good earnest, and before a large company.
As I was just now saying, he will attempt to represent the roll of thunder,
.......the noise of wind and hall, or the creaking of wheels, and pulleys,
.......and the various sounds of flutes; pipes, trumpets, and all sorts of instruments:
.......he will bark like a dog, bleat like a sheep, or crow like a cock;
.......his entire art will consist in imitation of voice and gesture,
.......and there will be very little narration.
And therefore when any one of these pantomimic gentlemen, who are so clever that they can imitate anything, comes to us, and makes a proposal to exhibit himself and his poetry,
we will fall down and worship him as a sweet and holy and wonderful being;
but we must also inform him that in our State such as he are not permitted to exist; the law will not allow them.
And so when we have anointed him with myrrh, and set a garland of wool upon his head,
we shall send him away to another city. For we mean to employ for our souls' health
the rougher and severer poet or story-teller, who will imitate the style of the virtuous only,
and will follow those models which we prescribed at first when we began the education of our soldiers.
We told you that David narrated Psalms to tell the story of God for the purpose of education: church has no other purpose. There was always an ugly persona outed by performing women: men performers were very rare even in a pagan society.
Everyone understood that character was built by narrating great epics: the bible contains such epics and none are metrical. The character of the Singy-Clappy can be seen in our modern society.
When you hear these sounds in Revelation it is a sound of judgment and a warning to "preach the gospel." John calls them fruits and sorcerers: I don't know why people are so anxious to bear the mark.
Re: The Great Baptismo still bashing the Church of Christ
|April 29 2011, 5:10 PM |
Foremost Ken - Fred must know where in the Bible the Bible states the Church of Christ being a church in the wilderness. This point is Ken's foundation for his anti-instrumental argument. Fred did not notice any Scripture references for all or actually any of your points with the exception at the end of Isaiah 8:20. Is this another example of the teachings and commandments of m(K)en? Is it impossible or only almost impossible to misconstrue the Bible when it is not being referenced for the source of authoritative teaching? Candidly Ken - Fred has been reading your lengthy messages for months and months and believes Ken's strange style confuses novice Christians rather than aiding their understanding of Scripture on the matter and sacred cow of instrumental music. Pretend for a moment that you have one opportunity to start fresh and provide one message of Scriptural content on the issue of singing with instruments vs. singing without instruments. Provide us with your masterpiece! Fred will be waiting impatiently to read and then compliment Ken for actually resorting to Scriptures and most importantly if those are not taken out of the context.
|Even at their highest level of incompeten|
Fred: how many times
|April 29 2011, 5:40 PM |
When Stephen spoke of the Church in the Winderness he proves to the clergy that God had "turned THEM over to worship the starry host becfause of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. God abandoned Isreal to but DID NOT COMMAND king, kingdom, temple, sacrifices or the exorcising sounds not called music.
Now, ask: What WAS the Church of Christ in the wilderness?"
The Levi tribe had been cursed by Jacob and warned us NOT to attend their assemblies or make a covenant with them.
The synagogue or Church ordained by Christ (the Rock) quarantined the godly people FROM the sacrificial system which was hidden behind close gats.
Baptismos etal use the patternism of the Cursed Levites and so blasphemes the Spirit OF Christ by claiming that their songs and sermons are GOD'S word.
Stephen was wise unto salvation because he grew up around the synagogue where they PREACHED the word by READING theWord. Acts 15 defines the PATTERN and Paul repeats it in several places.
The synagogue continuged parallel to the Civil-Military-Clergy complex. Jesus ordained the Lord's Supper to show forth or preach His death which is a first principle for those who will consider their own body dead or sacrificed so that nothing but the prophets and apostles are to be TAUGHT. That makes is easy to MARK false theachers when they private interpret or further expound. That would excluse writing your own sermons or songs to REPLACE the word of Christ.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Apr 29, 2011 5:48 PM|
Re: Fred: how many times
|April 29 2011, 5:59 PM |
Ken - this cannot be your masterpiece on singing vs. music beccause you abandoned addressing it with points and counterpoints and only re-emphasized the church in the wilderness point.
++++Pretend you are explaining your position on not using instruments for the first time to someone, AND, that you can only use Scripture. Example: If it were the first time, would you not mention Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16? As you make each point, contemplate what the counterpoint would be and address that as well.
Let's try again!!! Because if you can explain in simple terms with only using Scripture and not other sources, Fred will respect you even though probably disagreeing. Fred surmises that Dave and Rocky would also respect you more for trying to stand on God's Word and not mythology and other non-biblical musings.
|Even at their highest level of incompeten|
Eph 5 uses SPIRIT: Col 3 uses The Word of Christ.
|April 29 2011, 6:54 PM |
SPEAK to one another externally (never more than cantillation meaning speak with accents)
With the Inspired Text
SingING and makING are IN the heart or mind.
Casual readers always saw this as meditation: Augustine had to give His divine permission to go beyond and sing TO THE AUDIENDE.
I would go back to Ephesians 4 where Paul said that the gifted men were,
First, shut down all of the cunning craftsmen which includes all of the performing arts.
Second, then perform the task of the ekklesia/synagogue to teach the Word of Christ.
I would do that by defining words as used in the Greek of the time of Paul. I would define cunning and sophos to be trained speaking, singing, playing because Christ cannot use our AIDS.
Then, I would show that that we are to be the opposite of the wise or sophists by noting the parallelism;
Ephesians 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise,
......BUT understanding what the will of the Lord is.
The cunning or wise are the SOPHOS meaning "rhetoric, singing, music, drama."
I would show that the will of the Lord is not the will of any human: understanding the will of Christ:
Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess;
......but be filled with the Spirit;
I would show that the Spirit is the Word of Christ (John 6:63) and Col 3:16. For hard headed theologians I would waste my time by showing the common understanding that music WAS intoxicating.
Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves
I would show that in all languages SPEAK is the opposite of poetry or music: the Hebrews added accent marks to make sure that no one could further expound the Text by gestures or tonal qualities. In the same way, poetry or music is always defined as the OPPOSITE of Speak. Speak is a form of LOGOS or the Word.
Then I would show that "to yourselves" or one to another does not leave room form any performing groups or instruments.
The parallel in Romans 15 where self-pleasure excludes all of the performing arts is explicit by defining speaking with one mind and one mouth (unison at best) "that which is written for our learning" which he defines as "scripture."
in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
I would show that "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" are Biblical or inspired text. That which is written for our learning would seem to exclude that which is written for our entertainment or diversion.
singing and making melody
I would show that Psallo is never used of musical melody in the Greek text. It is primarily a making war or making perverted love word when used EXTERNALLY.
I would show that SPEAKING externally and SINGING externally are mutually exclusive.
in your heart to the Lord;
I would hope that they would understand that IN YOUR HEART is a place as defined by Jesus and Paul and "to the Lord" is not to the admiring audience.
Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father
in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
In the NAME also means by the AUTHORITY of Jesus Who commanded CENI by commanding that they teach what HE COMMANDED to be taught.
For the really hard headed I would show that there is NO MUSIC in a tuneful sense possible: Cantillation is marked for emphasis and text control: not for a musical melody. Cantillation is a two-note melody for many recorded psalms in later synagogues.
Re: Eph 5 uses SPIRIT: Col 3 uses The Word of Christ.
|May 2 2011, 3:43 PM |
Ken - this time you have demonstrated that you DO have the ability to simply talk about the Bible using the Bible! Fred respects you for this and encourages you to always stay with Scripture and no longer resort to mythology.
Check the parallels
|April 29 2011, 9:08 PM |
Not even scholars seem to have the ability to resist lifting verses out of context: if it says what they want to say they believe that it becomes inspired to them. Many historians, including Erasmus, noted that this happens in the world in theology and would not be tolerated in any other field: since Jesus said the doctors of the Law take away the key to knowledge and called Scribes (doctors) and Pharisees hypocrites and in the Ezekiel 33 passage Christ names slick speakers, singers and instruments as the BEST EXAMPLE of people who have no intention of obeying anything they hear.
Paul goes through the process of outlawing all performance arts and crafts before He defines what he calls "synagogues" as limited to the Word of Christ. The Campbells defined:
Church as a school of Christ
Worship as reading musing the Word.
That's how Christ commanded it and how the historic church practiced it.
E-mail from Max Moon: no return address.
|May 4 2011, 2:32 PM |
Instrumental Music in a worship setting. In the context of this discussion it is a disctinctive among churches with the name "Church of Christ" who arose out of the "Restoration Movement" in the early 1800's.
Because the majority of the world's people have never fallen into instrumental idolatry, and because of the claim that the church of Christ did not exist prior to the 1800s, Max has spoken severay untruths: because he and the whole forum intents to hurt The Church of Christ this becomes a lie. Indeed religious music is defined by the Psalms and recorded history as SACRED VIOLENCE: it intends and does silence the voice of the Victim AS PROPHESIED then and now
Most of the Grace-Centered forum claim to let the Church of Christ will smash you real good if you post any UNIVERSAL information against instrumental music.
They cannot grasp that there ws NO music in a congregational sense with or without the instrument until after John Calvin. The Methodists (rooted in Catholicism) was also discorded when introduced the organ. In fact the first music was introduced by a free black Methodist when his split church was in trouble and he used an orchestra ONLY as a fund-raising effort: it worked so well at fleecing the sheep that he madeit a part of what the sillikens call "worship."
Max Moon is a Waning Moon when he participates with a group who lies to God and about God and then claims that GRACE 'gonna save us. There is no grace for musical discorders. Christ in Isaiah 30 says that hell was PREPAREDfor God's enemies and the MARKS in sight and sound was the wind, string and percussion instruments. These were brought into the garden of Eden by the "SINGING AND HARP-PLAYING PROSTITUTE."
All of the "scholars" lie like DOGS which Paul excluded from the worship IN THE SPIRIT.
John T. Willis
Royce Ogle and Danny Dodd
The cannot grasp that the musical graces or muses were prostitutes as were all pagan musical performers intending to pick your pocket. Grace is another name for Jesus Christ Who taught all historic churches of Christ to NOT fall into aterminal sin:
Here is the enemy: Allah the Moon goddess.
The non-instrumental church of Christers who are allowed to speak do not have a clue about the Bible: not required to preach. Even old Jimmy can turn and rend you. Reading black text on white paper is not possible until you turn to Christ which means to be baptized 2 Cor 3.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 22.214.171.124 on May 4, 2011 2:37 PM|
This one convinced Fred!
|May 12 2011, 12:45 PM |
Ken - this article has convinced Fred that instrumental music is sinful!
Re: This one convinced Fred!
|May 12 2011, 11:17 PM |
I am very sure that it has, Fred.
Now, would you do yourself a favor?
(1) Your "young" brother Dave needs to be convinced also.
(2) Remind the leadership of your congregation that you no longer support its scheme to implement the mechanical operation of musical instruments in the assembly.
(3) Don't forget to locate all of your posts in order for you to recant all of Fred's statements advocating the use of IM in the assembly.
Buff whines, Larry protects, ken gets silenced
|May 12 2011, 11:44 PM |
I finally got a few minutes to waste: Lurching Larry stole my good posts so I had to redo something.
Buff the Reformer promotes Leroy Garrett is his way of attacking the "a cappella church of Christ."
Leroy misquotes Scripture, Buff misquotes Leroy, both are absolutely wrong and have no trouble attributing something to the Campbells which is just the opposite of truth.
The lack of manly response to a rebuttal is pretty graceless.
Teaching people to Disobey Jesus
|May 13 2011, 9:59 AM |
The real Alexander Campbell in the Lunenburg Correspondence.
In reply to this conscientious sister, I observe, that if there be no Christians IN
the Protestant sects, there are certainly none among the sects, none among the Jews, Turks, Pagans; and therefore no Christians in the world except ourselves, or such of us as keep, or strive to keep, all the commandments of Jesus.
They are not Christians because they are sectarians and they will, when taught, COME OUT of the sects.
But who is a Christian? I answer, Every one that believes in his heart that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, the son of God; repents of his sins, and obeys him in all things according to his measure of knowledge of his will.
And while I would unhesitatingly say that I think that every man who despises any ordinance of Christ or who is willingly ignorant of it, cannot be a Christian;
still I should sin against my own convictions, should I teach any one to think that if he mistook the meaning of any institution while in his soul he desired to know the whole will of God he must perish forever.
But to conclude for the present--he that claims for himself a license to neglect
the least of all the commandments of Jesus
because it is possible for some to be saved
who through insuperable ignorance
or involuntary mistake,
do neglect or transgress it;
or he that wilfully neglects to ascertain the will of the Lord to the whole extent of his means and opportunities
because some who are defective in that knowledge may be Christians,
is not possessed of the spirit of Christ and cannot be registered among the Lord's people.
So I reason; and I think in so reasoning I am sustained by all the Prophets and Apostles of both Testaments.
2. And in the second place, why should we so often have quoted and applied to apostate Christendom what the Spirit saith to saints in Babylon--"Come out of her, my people, that you partake not of her sins
, and that you receive not of her plagues"--had we imagined that the Lord had no people beyond the pale of our communion!
1. GCMF is aggressively teaching AGAINST baptism to FREE people from obediene.
1. They are using Alexander Campbell to support their assigned task by lying about what he believed and wrote.
3. Alexander gives NO HOPE for those even supposing that people are saved without baptism fail to TEACH what the Bible Says.
Buff and Leroy ignore the punch line
|May 18 2011, 12:26 PM |
Not even Jesus spoke that which He had not heard from God the Father. That does not prevent preachers for claiming when Jesus did not speak and make a law THEY have the authority to speak on their own and everyone else is bound to obey the new law or get out.
They will never cease from working really hard to prove that men like Alexander Campbell believed in progressive revelation. This is almost always used to prove that we can impose music even when we know that it will sow massive discord and SILENCE the voice of the victim.
The Holy Spirit a Personification
|May 18 2011, 11:26 PM |
The church is plagued with a "just Jesus" theology but Christ in Jeremiah 23 says they blaspheme if they traffic in THEIR words to replace the text.
The same people who lust to have singy-clappy teams denounce baptism and the Word and claim that "a" spirit told them to lie about the Scriptures and steal the church house of widows. Sorry but THAT kind of grace were musical prostitutes.
While people build huge institutes as ANTI-baptism or in Buff's fatal word claim "water salvation" do not know that the connection between OBEDIENCE and escaping hell is well documented.
This also proves that the Trinity being promoted by the once-Christian colleges and plaguing the Church is a slick willie way to silence the Apostles and Prophets.
John said the "another Comforter" is Jesus Christ and said that if you deny the TWO-FOLD relationship you are an ANTI-Christ.