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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: YOU are to Blame

May 5 2011, 1:46 AM 

No, Dave, it is the other way around. Because of our efforts to keep the body of Christ united as He prayed for unity, we are here to warn congregations that there are forces out there to get 'em and to be vigilant and be willing to learn from mistakes made by certain leaders who have succumbed to the will and enticements of such destructive forces.

Warning yet unaffected, peaceful congregations is not the same as calling "the Lord's church up for public ridicule."

You and the change agents are going against the grain, against the Lord's church -- and don't even know it!!! That's what's sad and unfortunate.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

It Is What It Is

May 5 2011, 8:51 AM 

Donnie, you know what you have done, and it is evident when you say...."Warning yet unaffected, peaceful congregations is not the same as calling "the Lord's church up for public ridicule.""

YES Donnie, you can call it "warning" all you want, but it is "slander" against the Lord's church.
When Paul counseled the churches and "warned" them, did he post the letter on every tree to get everyone's attention, including those outside the brotherhood?
Did he send the letter just to the congregation? Yes!
You posted your gripes and whinging here on this forum because you felt like you weren't being listened to, so Satan overtook you and you posted it for all the world to see.
You got your wish. Everyone sees it, and now that you have publicly sinned you need to publicly repent.

So make your print bold and big, blue, and red, disguise it and make it look sweet, but you three are the ones on the hot seat here, and not the churches or the elders.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.242.135

Re: It Is What It Is

May 5 2011, 2:07 PM 

So Dave's desperate self-aggrandizement and finger-pointing will continue until...Doom's Day.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Slander Gets You Slandered

May 5 2011, 4:55 PM 

William,
You wanted it.....you got it. You tried to slander the Lord's church and in the process all you have accomplished is getting the lot of you MARKED!

You can't slander the Lord's church, don't you know that? It is you who are cursed.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.240.208.54

Re: Slander Gets You Slandered

May 5 2011, 9:22 PM 

"It is you who are cursed!" So says Dave in another melodramatic fit of self-righteousness. So he's now putting a "hex" on those with whom he disagrees? Dave may have watched too many of those old horror movies from Universal Studios and Hammer Films. wink.gif

 
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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.40

Stuff

May 5 2011, 11:24 PM 

[linked image]
[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 67.142.130.11 on May 5, 2011 11:48 PM


 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Jesus Gives You a Way Out

May 6 2011, 1:31 AM 

William, I didn't put a curse on you......you did that yourself.
There is a way out though.......try JESUS!

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.246.147

Re: Jesus Gives You a Way Out

May 6 2011, 8:31 AM 

Dave, I don't think Jesus would approve of your putting a hex on those who disagree with you. That's the opposite of going the "extra mile."

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

May 6 2011, 4:06 AM 

Dave,

We have very patiently allowed you for quite some time now to declare your self-righteousness, your piety and your being a role model for Christian living.

You have refused to provide answers to some of the questions posed earlier. They would have settled a lot of issues you raised yourself.

Now, would you answer the initial question:

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Same Ole Same Ole

May 6 2011, 11:58 AM 

Donnie,
I told you before that I would not give a rebuttal, so like always with any audience that you feel will come here, you continue to grandstand.
I will not give rebuttal because you have seen my answer here many times before. All that you do is continue to ask the same questions, and even when you get the Truth you ignore it....and ask the same question again. What should I expect...if you don't listen to Jesus, then why would you ever consider listening to me?

You said "We have very patiently allowed you for quite some time now to declare your self-righteousness, your piety and your being a role model for Christian living."

No you have not, you are grandstanding....again.

Donnie, you can't question anyone's Christian living when your life is in stark contrast to the way that Christ showed you to live.
You have insulted His church, His bride, the elders who rule over it, and no matter what you say about THOSE who you believe to be in error in guiding Madison, you went about all of this in a sinful manner. Your gripes and complaints should have never come to a public forum such as this.
YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND HAVE DONE!
You need to repent.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.211.49

Re: Same Ole Same Ole

May 6 2011, 1:34 PM 

Since Dave says he's given his answer here "many times before," then we must conclude that Dave approves of and sees nothing wrong with having instrumental music in worship assemblies, because it's allegedly OK to have anything that God doesn't condemn by name. That's the answer Dave has given here "many times before." If that's not true, however, then now is the time for Dave to set the record straight, once and for all time. If Dave's reply merely repeats his accusations that we're liars, we're cursed, and we don't love the Lord's church (same ole same ole), then we'll KNOW all the more that Dave approves of IM in worship assemblies. When people are backed into a corner, they are more likely to lash out in hostility and clam up when asked questions.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

"You have seen my answer here many times before."

May 6 2011, 10:49 PM 

Dave,

I certainly have. And your answer that I've seen "here many times before" is that, according to YOU, the Scripture does not forbid the use of musical instruments in the assembly and, therefore, God approves their mechanical operation.

You further state or imply that David, king of Israel, man of God and dearly loved by Him, ensampled for us the praise and worship of God "in the assembly" [an important component of the IM issue--"in the assembly"] with a variety [a long list] of "instruments of musick." So, the church assembled should emulate David

You further present this weak and fallacious argument by equating the PA system [which even a kindergartener knows is NOT a musical instrument] WITH any of the real musical devices (piano, organ, trumpet, harp, sackbut, flute, cornet, psaltery, etc.). That if we use the PA system, why not musical instruments?

You further suggest that the church is burdened by our "tradition" [human, man-made] such as by our objection to the use of musical instruments "in worship."

You've said many other things that discredit what churches of Christ believe and teach regarding IM. But those I've just mentioned should suffice my understanding of your stance on the mechanical operation of musical devices in the assembly. [OK, I'm not done in responding to all of your personal attacks, charges, accusations and judgments against me and others here; save them for later.] Right now, back to the initial question:

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?
I am trying to understand your hesitancy in giving a rebuttal. I think I do understand now. I have presented YOUR rebuttal myself. I have gathered from your various posts that your response would be a resounding YES to that question. If NO, then, correct me where I have misstated.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.248.92

Re: "You have seen my answer here many times before."

May 7 2011, 9:14 AM 

The argument about PA systems and IM has gone on seemingly forever. Although we all know the difference between PA systems and musical instruments, Dave is being deliberately obtuse just to further his claim that we can have both, because God condemns neither one by name.

Of course, we know that there is no problem with having PA systems, because God never addressed sound amplification or sound systems in the New Testament. On the other hand, Dave conveniently ignores the fact that, in the New Testament, God has explicitly addressed the making of music in Christian worship and the means by which that music is to be made. We all know that God specified vocal music and stopped there. That's as far as man should go when making music in Christian worship. Yet change agents who implement IM when God specifies vocal music behave like the deliberately obtuse kid who throws a brick when his parents have told him not to throw rocks, then says, "You didn't say I couldn't throw a brick!" Likewise Dave, also being deliberately obtuse, takes things a step further and implies that, because God didn't explicitly say, "Thou shalt not worship me with IM," then IM is on a par with PA systems. We all know that's the age-old, fallacious, apples-and-oranges argument. Since God addressed worship music but not PA systems, the two are NOT on an even par. We may have PA systems, but, based on the general principle of 1 Cor. 4:6, we cannot go beyond the scope of what God has addressed concerning worship music.

 
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Dave
(no login)
65.191.141.159

You are CONCERNED, but Not About the Truth

May 7 2011, 12:14 PM 

I have been here for over a year Donnie and you know my position, and then you have the nerve to say "I am trying to understand your hesitancy in giving a rebuttal. I think I do understand now. I have presented YOUR rebuttal myself. I have gathered from your various posts that your response would be a resounding Yes to that question."

Donnie, you certainly have given YOUR rebuttal for me. You love INTERPRETING what others have NOT said. Ken and William are the same. You don't like the Truth so you take what others say and make it your lie.
USE quotes if you want to prove something Donnie.
I have been here long enough where you should have MANY of my quotes for the Truth, and as often as I have repeated myself it should be here many times.
Your band of miscreants here take the very Word of God and abuse so you believe it supports your evil way of doing things.
If you would do that with the very Word of God, then why would you have any problem with doing even more with what I say?
Donnie, you have sinned. You could have kept this inside the church, but you didn't get you way with the Madison elders so you thought you could deal them and the others who sided with them a bit of revenge by posting your gripes for all the world to see.
You got what you asked for.
If you need MY REBUTTAL then look by over the threads. It is there. Don't tell others what YOU wanted me to say. Tell them what I ACTUALLY said.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: You are CONCERNED, but Not About the Truth

May 7 2011, 4:15 PM 

Dave,

What part of your belief that I listed:

-- when YOU said that God approves/authorizes IM;
-- when YOU said that God is pleased with musical devices in praise;
-- when YOU said that we emulate David for playing instruments;
-- when YOU said that PA equates with IM, therefore, both are OK;
-- when YOU said that "a cappella" is only a tradition

. . . is really NOT YOUR belief?

Using the:

-- "elders" ...
-- "you don't like the truth" ...
-- "you have sinned" ...
-- "you are a liar" ...
-- "you've sinned against the Lord's church" ...
-- "you are cursed" ...
-- "you need to repent" ...

... as YOUR arguments FOR the mechanical operation of instruments of music IN THE ASSEMBLY do not compute. They certainly diminish your credibility and debating skills; they only project your image as a self-righteous, pious and judgmental "Christian."

If you wish to initiate a thread concerning "elders" or "elders are worthy of double honor," etc., feel free to do so.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.205.236

Re: You are CONCERNED, but Not About the Truth

May 7 2011, 4:33 PM 

So is Dave using the back door to tell us that it is NOT scriptural to use IM in Christian worship after all? He implies that we have not presented his view about IM accurately. From his previous attitude, we thought he approved and condoned the use of IM in Christian worship. That is, every time we wrote that it was not scriptural to use IM, Dave objected big-time and said that it was only our "preference" to abstain from IM. Now it appears that Dave is doing a 180 and is reversing his former opinion that IM in Christian worship is scriptural. If that's true, then Dave realizes that IM in Christian worship is NOT scriptural. happy.gif

 
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Dave
(no login)
75.176.35.188

Here We Go

May 7 2011, 9:12 PM 

More on....THE LIES.

It is very evident that the soft shoe shuffle is going on here.....listen to what William just said.

He said "From his previous attitude, we thought he approved and condoned the use of IM in Christian worship. That is, every time we wrote that it was not scriptural to use IM, Dave objected big-time and said that it was only our "preference" to abstain from IM."

Notice here the slippery slope. It started with William saying "...then we'll KNOW all the more that Dave approves of IM in worship assemblies." Then the rock and roll slowed to a waltz with William toning down the lie to him saying that it was "his claim" ("his" being me), and now then it slowed down to William merely saying "and implies that." Now where are we William? Look at the above quote from William. Now, William is saying "WE THOUGHT." When William sees the full truth what does he do?
It is called an abrupt 360. That is what happens when people are confronted with the truth. In the end all they do is cripple their own credibility because of their lies. However it is hard to cripple something that you lost many moons ago.

See Donnie, I use what you and William actually SAID and SAY. It is not that hard. At least it isn't that hard for some people. That is, people that don't mind the Truth.

Yes, Donnie, since you can't prove your allegations against me, which means you lied, then why not show people that these sins of lies are not surprising. You asked about my stance on instrumental music. I told you (and you know) what my stance is from many previous comments from other threads. If you would TRY and hold the Lord's church up for public ridicule, then you certainly would not have any problem with any false allegations against any man that doesn't agree with what you say.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.62.114

Re: Here We Go

May 7 2011, 11:02 PM 

Dave persists in double-talk with smoke and mirrors. He waffles back and forth and refuses to say whether he does or does not follow the mainstream Church of Christ, which abstains from IM in Christian worship. Therefore, Dave leaves the impression that he really doesn't know what he believes. Sometimes he wants us to think he advocates IM; at other times, he wants us to think he does not advocate IM. For one who claims to "love the Lord's church," it is ironic that Dave would resort to playing games with this yes-no-flip-flop-don't-give-a-straight-answer about IM. It looks like Dave needs some time to work out some deep-seated problems.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Here We Go

May 7 2011, 11:19 PM 

Dave,

I'm very concerned about your systolic/diastolic numbers, if we base them on your hostile, angry, and lacking-in-substance responses. It is not a good thing for you to confuse me and the readers about your stance on the IM issue.

Dave, this is your opportunity to correct the oft-mentioned lies about your belief. So, again, you can straighten me out with a simple YES [it is truth] or NO [it is a lie] to each of the following:

[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that God approves/authorizes IM;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that God is pleased with musical devices in praise;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that we emulate David for playing instruments;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that PA equates with IM, therefore, both are OK;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that "a cappella" is only a tradition.

Patiently waiting for Dave, once and for all, to settle the misunderstanding and confusion!!!

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.62.114

Re: Here We Go

May 7 2011, 11:40 PM 

It just could be that the more anyone presses Dave for answers, the more Dave sits back and plays his games. Perhaps he flips a coin: heads, he'll push for IM; tails, he won't. Perhaps his games are deliberately designed to confuse those in the mainstream church of Christ. That's indeed quite a "productive" way of life for one who claims to "love the Lord's church."

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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