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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Fred's Depth of Biblical Wisdom

May 12 2011, 4:43 AM 

  • He defends his "young" brother (Dave) and his "words of truth" -- regardless -- even though Dave is incapable of citing a single passage of scripture [because there is NONE] to support his stance on the use of musical machines in the assembly of saints.

  • He affirms Dave's ideation that NOT USING musical devices in the assembly, rather than rather PLAYING, is the tradition (i.e., human or man-made). It makes no sense. It's like saying that:

    1. "a third-world barrio that does not play American football at all" is the tradition; but...

    2. "a U.S. city with two teams that play football every Saturday afternoon, rain or shine" is NOT a tradition.

  • He needs to take the piano with him whether he goes so that when he worships and praises God, he has the instrument readily accessible and playable.

  • Dave is not blind; Fred is not blind; one of them does not lead the other. Of course, not. The difference is that Dave's congregation, contrary to Dave's belief, is NON-INSTRUMENTAL ... whereas Fred's congregation is on its way to deviating from the mainstream church of Christ by using musical objects in its assembly. Hopefully, Fred will be bold enough to add his congregation to the list of churches that are now Community Churches or associated with the Christian Church denomination.

  • It is very doubtful that Fred really "luvs" Dr. Crump. Dave has already condemned this "evil" website and its conservative posters.

  • In so far as "doctrinal error" is concerned, Dave and Fred, by all means, should stay away from that until they both have scriptural evidence that God has ever commanded, authorized or approved or has ever been pleased with the use of inanimate, lifeless musical inventions of man.

  • Fred has already determined someone else's destination who does not agree with him and Dave [no need to figure out what they're thinking].

  • Fred is offering God's love and mercy to others if they change from right to wrong.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.246.50

Re: Fred's Depth of Biblical Wisdom

May 12 2011, 8:41 AM 

So Dave shows his "luv" for others who disagree with him by putting "curses" on them and implying they are bound for hell. (This guy "Walt," a hateful Calvinist at FaithSite, voiced similar, hell-bound sentiment.) And Fred, Dave's one-man cheerleading squad with a fetish for Elmer Fudd, approves 100 percent. What a bunch of zany, entertaining characters! Are any of them REAL Christians at all?

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Fred offers mercy to all! Because God offers mercy to all!

May 12 2011, 9:10 AM 

Without wading through all of Donnie's false teaching or garbage Fred will simply say that discussing Doctor Crump's salvation had nothing to do with his view on instruments but his lack of mercy and kindness toward Dave. James 2:13 says judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Those who do not use instruments but do not show mercy will be judged without mercy. Those who do use instruments but do not show mercy will be judged without mercy. Fred believes strongly in the mercy of God. Dave believes strongly in the mercy of God.

Fred Whaley

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Thanks Donnie and Bill

May 12 2011, 9:50 AM 

Donnie,
Your rebuttal (telling others what you WANT me to say) and Bill's temper tantrums are better than any response that I could ever come up with.

Thank you.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.246.2

Re: Thanks Donnie and Bill

May 12 2011, 12:12 PM 

Since Dave knows that his little game is over, maybe he would like to have other discussions when he can get his overwrought emotions under control and refrain from putting those gypsy-like "curses" on those who disagree with him. wink.gif

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.240.208.200

On Second Thought...

May 12 2011, 4:23 PM 

I was initially trying to save Dave some embarrassment over his madness with "curses" by suggesting that he pull himself together. On second thought, however, since Dave listens to nothing we conservatives say, then Dave should continue on his mission of "curses," because he really entertains us with them. So go on, boy. Stand over your crystal ball beside your computer and whomp up some new "curses" for us. No doubt they begin with something like, "I CURSE you %$#@! people at Concerned Members for disagreeing with me........!"

wink.gifwink.gifwink.gif

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

CURSED

May 12 2011, 3:51 PM 

Hebrews 6:8
But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being CURSED. In the end it will be burned.

Concernedmembers is worthless land.

 
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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
72.171.0.139

The MARK of the thorns which prick

May 12 2011, 5:06 PM 

Heb. 6:6YNG and having fallen away, again to renew [them] to reformation,
......having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame
Heb 6:[6]Douay (Impossiile) And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance,
......crucifying again to themselves the Son of God,
......and making him a [b]mockery.

......Ostentus , s, m. ostendo.
......I. n gen., a showing, [b]exhibiting, display (not in Cic. or Cæs.):
............corpora extra vallum abjecta ostentui,
......as [i]a public spectacle, [/i]Tac. A. 1, 29: atrocitatis, Gell. 20, 1, 48.

Heb. 6:6NET and then have committed apostasy,6 to renew them again to repentance,
......since7 they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again8
......and holding him up to contempt

......recrucify Hdt. 3.125

......G3856 paradeigmatiz par-ad-igue-mat-id'-zo From G3844 and G1165 ;
............ [b]to show alongside (the public), that is, expose to infamy:
............[b]make a public example, put to an open shame.
......G1165 deigmatiz digh-mat-id'-zo From G1164 ; to exhibit:make a shew.

Heb. 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it,
......and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb. 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected,
......and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Isa 5:6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged;
......but there shall come up briers and thorns:
......I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

Isa 5:7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant:
......and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression;
......for righteousness, but behold a cry.

......Caaqah (h6818) tsah-ak-aw'; from 6817; a shriek: - cry (-ing).
......Caaq (h6817) tsaw-ak'; a prim. root; to shriek; (by impl.)
......to proclaim (an assembly): - * at all, call together, cry (out), gather (selves) (together).

Isaiah 5: 11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning,
......that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them

Isaiah 5: 12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts:
......but they regard not the work of the Lord,
......neither consider the operation of his hands.

......I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies. Am.5:21

Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge:
......and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.9.165

Re: CURSED

May 12 2011, 7:48 PM 

Well, since that verse in Hebrews mentions nothing about Concerned Members, then it is merely Dave's opinion based on his hatred that drives him to say that CM is "cursed." Therefore, the "curses" come from Dave alone. Keep entertaining us, boy.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: CURSED

May 13 2011, 1:07 AM 

Dave,

You've been wandering in the "worthless land." But it's worth the time, right? You have learned a lot from those who are loyal to Christ and His church. I know. And you know it.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Fred's Mercy vs. God's Mercy

May 13 2011, 12:57 AM 

What a contrast!

Fred's mercy: "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess." (Luke 18:11,12)

God's mercy: "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13). "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." (Heb. 8:12)

Fred and Dave have drawn their own conclusion that what the Scripture teaches and what the church of Christ [the 40,000-congregation strong worldwide] teaches regarding the unauthorized operation of mechanical music in the assembly is "false teaching or garbage."


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Fred Whaley: Are the Denominations That Do Not ... "the Church"?

May 13 2011, 3:00 AM 

Fred Whaley (no login) 173.162.22.85
Re: NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition? May 2 2011, 3:46 PM

If name-calling and grammatical corrections are not allowed then the crass Doctor Crump will feel disinterested. Fred on the other hand would like to chime in with questions for Donnie Cruz. If the "denominations" do not practice these Roman Catholic traditions does this mean they are also "the church." Do not the most conservative in the Church of Christ speak and treat the Church of Christ as a denomination? And doesn't the Catholic Church practice singing more biblically than the Church of Christ? They sing in unison rather than four-part harmony. So does this mean the Church of Christ is not the true church because of a worship practice begun by man of four-part harmony?

Fred Whaley
Fred,

1. Question: Are they also "the church"? No, Buddhism does not practice these Roman Catholic traditions; Buddhism is not "the church." Islam does not practice Roman Catholic traditions; Islam is not "the church. The "denominations" are organized religious faiths or bodies -- they are not "the church." No, I did not imply what you were hoping for me to say that "denominations" which do not practice the RCC traditions (worship of the Virgin Mary, prayers for the dead, worship of images and relics) are also "the church."

2. The church is best described by its own history as the kingdom or church prophesied in the O.T., Matt. 16, etc., and fulfilled as the kingdom or the church in Acts 1,2. The various congregations that comprise the body of believers in Christ are churches of Christ (Rom. 16). I do not agree with your assertion that the most conservative in the church [l.c.] of Christ "speak and treat" the church [l.c.] of Christ as a denomination. The conservative, when properly taught, believes that the church established by Christ is not a denomination. The church is the bride of Christ, God's family, and is comprised of members who have been buried with Christ in baptism and added to His body. [In my personal writings, it makes sense to me not to capitalize the word "church" when used in a sentence or a paragraph. I would capitalize the word "church" when it is part of the title, of the name of a book, etc., and used as a proper noun.]

3. Any singing that is simple and understandable is closer to the type of singing described in Scripture. A complex 4-part harmony may possibly negate the effectiveness of the message being delivered in the song. But a harmony of singing is not far from singing in unison. The harmony is provided for the purpose of allowing folks to sing within their vocal rangeS and it does not violate the principle of singing with melody in the heart. Often we are misled by the notion that singing is the main objective expressed in Colossians 3 and Ephesians 5.

It is about letting "the word of Christ dwell in you richly," stupid! This is the main command--NOT music. We are to TEACH and ADMONISH ONE ANOTHER in ... songs. SPEAKING to yourselves.... Singing is one medium of communicating the word of Christ to/with one another.

If teaching and admonishing one another via speaking or singing is a component in learning God's truth as the saints gather, what does that do and say about using lifeless and inanimate musical devices in letting "the word of Christ dwell in"? Hmmm!!!


 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

BINGO!!!

May 13 2011, 9:16 AM 

Donnie said....
"A complex 4-part harmony may possibly negate the effectiveness of the message being delivered in the song. But a harmony of singing is not far from singing in unison. The harmony is provided for the purpose of allowing folks to sing within their vocal rangeS and it does not violate the principle of singing with melody in the heart."

Let's see now Donnie. FOUR-part harmony may be too complex, but a HARMONY OF SINGING may not be? What would a harmony be Donnie? Is that only three-part or two-part harmony? Donnie, any harmony (two to 20 parts) is not anything close to unison. See Donnie, what we have here is NOT a failure to communicate, but instead you have communicated very nicely. You are doing everything under the sun to say that ADDING to the base singing (four part harmony) is ok, but playing an instrument to accompany the singing is not. Where does God AUTHORIZE you to go beyond the normal singing?
Also what you said, and which doesn't even make sense, is where you said "the harmony is provided for the purpose of allowing folks to sing within their vocal ranges..."
What does harmony have to do with vocal ranges? Nothing. You are telling me that everyone cannot sing the melody note in unison? If the melody not is too high for the man then he sings it an octave lower. Harmony has nothing whatsoever to do with vocal ranges.

Here is the crux of the matter. If a man drops to the bass note for harmony then he is singing harmony for whose pleasure Donnie? He would say God. Does God need to hear harmony notes? No.
If a man plays an instrument to accompany the singing, then he is playing and singing for whose pleasure? He would say God. Does God need a man to play an instrument while he is singing? No.

One man prefers the tradition of four-part harmony singing while another prefers the tradition of playing an instrument to accompany his singing.

1 Corinthians 10
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.
Colossians 3
17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.9.86

Re: BINGO!!!

May 13 2011, 10:22 AM 

It's Friday the 13th. No wonder Dave's behavior is so bizarre. What explains his bizarre behavior on the other 364 days of the year? I know--putting "curses" on those who disagree with him. wink.gif

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Re: BINGO!!!

May 13 2011, 4:26 PM 

There is nothing bizarre about Dave's response Doctor Crump. Dave's content is excellent and since The Doctor cannot refute it with logic and Scripture he must make a petty remark. Donnie is in a pickle because he is being inconsistent in his method of interpretation. The way he justifies four-part harmony could also be justified for instrumental accompaniment. BINGO! wink.gif

Fred Whaley

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Re: BINGO!!!

May 13 2011, 4:31 PM 

Donnie the way you are trying to justify four-part harmony can also be justification for instrumental music. Just admit it!

Fred Whaley

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
98.87.24.135

Re: BINGO!!!

May 13 2011, 12:33 PM 

As he does with PA systems and IM, Dave is doing the same thing with four-part harmony and IM: comparing apples with oranges. Dave implies that PA systems, four-part harmony, and singing with or without IM are all on an even par, because they are all done out of "preference." Man does everything out of preference: he may prefer to follow the New Testament (and be right), or he may prefer to do as he pleases (and be wrong).

Dave still doesn't understand (and never will) that we may have PA systems and four-part harmony, because God never addressed those issues in the New Testament. Amplifying sound and singing in unison or in harmony (2-, 3-, or 4-part) are preferences that do not clash with the Gospel or any of God's commandments in the New Testament.

Dave still doesn't understand (and never will) that, because God HAS addressed the TYPE of music we are to use in worship--VOCAL MUSIC--then mainstream church of Christ congregations follow the New Testament and sing without IM, because they prefer to do the right thing.

Since God does not go beyond vocal music, then we should prefer NOT to go beyond vocal music. Since God doesn't add that vocal music should be "enhanced" or "accompanied" by other kinds of MUSIC, then we should prefer NOT to add IM to enhance or accompany the vocal music.

In summary, PA systems and singing in harmony are preferences that do not conflict with the New Testament. IM is also a preference, but it's a preference that goes beyond what God has commanded. To sing without IM is to prefer to follow God's command to use vocal music and stop there. As I said, not all preferences are on an even par.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Watch What You Ask For

May 13 2011, 1:48 PM 

Bill,
You certainly can call the sun the moon and the moon the sun, if you care to. It doesn't make it so, neither does it make it so when you tell everyone that I am cursing concernedmembers. YOU....and the CREW here at concernedmembers heap curses upon yourselves daily when you publicly ridicule the Lord's church and the leadership of the Lord's church such as you do with Madison, Richland Hills, Hillcrest, etc.
YOU WILLIAM CRUMP, do that, and no one else.
However, if you believe it eases your conscience, in any way, then you continue to roll the blame my way.
I can handle it!


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.63.152

Curses! Curses!

May 13 2011, 8:17 PM 

Dave continues his entertaining streak by dumping "curses" on those who disagree with him. Since Dave is now so preoccupied with hurling "curses" right and left, I'm beginning to think that he dabbles in black magic and voodoo on the "side." Hmmm...Maybe he plays with Tarot cards and asks questions of the Ouija board to see what kind of "curses" to launch. Maybe he communes with local astrologers and psychics to get inspiration. Hmmm...How often does he check out books on necromancy and the casting of spells from the library?

You're a good entertainer, Dave. Hmmm...

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Plain as the Nose on Your Face

May 13 2011, 5:20 PM 

Someone once said...
"Since God does not go beyond vocal music, then we should prefer NOT to go beyond vocal music."

Does a PA go beyond vocal music? It ENHANCES the voice, but God doesn't authorize it. Is it then wrong to use a PA system? No. Why? Because whether one uses a PA system to ENHANCE the voice or not, the singing still occurs.....even though AIDED by the PA system.

Does a piano go beyond vocal music? It ENHANCES the voice, but God doesn't authorize it. Is it then wrong to use a piano? No. Why? Because whether one uses a piano to ENHANCE the voice or not, the singing still occurs.....even though AIDED by the piano.

PREFERENCE!!!

I don't prefer the piano, but to those who do, and give it to the Glory of God to accompany and aid the singing....then HALLELUJAH, and PRAISE GOD!!!

1 Corinthians 10
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.
Colossians 3
17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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