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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)


May 13 2011, 9:01 PM 

If you do not know that a Christian is a Disciple then you CANNOT be a Christian.

If you do not know what Disciples do when they ekklesia or synagogue then you have no interest in being a disciple.

If you do not understand

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.A

Then you actively promote dishonoring Jesus Christ.

That qualifies you for being a scholar.

So, eat, drink and be merry: if you cannot grasp that that text EXCLUDES people who intend to FORCE Jesus to be silent before the RECRUCIFYING.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Plain as the Nose on Your Face

May 13 2011, 10:08 PM 

The arguments have gone round and round so many times. Dave has reached the point that when he starts the same arguments yet again...and going NOWHERE...he sounds like a some kind of chicken squawking:


Keep entertaining us, Dave. wink.gif

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(no login)

Re: Plain as the Nose on Your Face

May 14 2011, 10:29 AM 

"Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!"


Dr. Crump, get a grip!

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on May 26, 2011 4:57 AM

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Plain as the Nose on Your Face

May 14 2011, 6:46 PM 

Save your "Get a grip" comments for Dave. For someone who's been on a roll handing out "curses," Dave really needs to get a grip!

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Comparing Apples (Melodious Vocal Harmony) vs. Oranges (the Piano)

May 14 2011, 3:46 AM 

1. When the discussion is about the fact that there is NOT ONE scripture to support man's opinion:

        (a) that God has ever commanded His followers to worship Him with musical devices;
        (b) that God has ever authorized or approved mechanical music in the assembly;
        (c) that God has ever been pleased with musical idolatry (the band and dancing);
        (d) that what's not specifically forbidden equates to permission...

Dave, with his leading change agents and their disciples, is hesitant and afraid to discuss the issue further. He becomes dormant.

The same attitude is evident, and the truth is completely ignored, when the trumpet lovers are confronted with the fact that the real command is NOT about music or any type of music, for that matter, as revealed in Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3:
It is about letting "the word of Christ dwell in you richly," stupid! This is the main command--NOT music. We are to TEACH and ADMONISH ONE ANOTHER in ... songs. SPEAKING to yourselves.... Singing is one medium of communicating the word of Christ to/with one another.
2. But a mere mention of vocal harmony wakes up the instrumental music lovers and idolaters.

3. The entertained musical worship attendees are quick to use the "4-part harmony" as their offensive weapon against the purpose of the assembling of the church, which is NOT about MUSIC but to:
"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."
I mentioned "4-part harmony" because that was the expression used by Fred Whaley. And Dave quickly acted like a twister. BTW, Dave, you can fill in the number suitable to you in support of your weak and fallacious argument: a 2- or 3- or 4- or 12-part harmony really does not matter for they all fall in the same category. Any vocal harmony that distorts the truth (a.k.a. God's truth or "the word of Christ") in the song does not serve the purpose of the gathering.

Vocal harmony or singing that does not distort the clarity and veracity of the message being delivered or communicated is just fine by scriptural specifications. Singing is one medium of delivery or communication of God's word as it is being taught. Better yet is "speaking to yourselves." Any musical device (trumpet, harp, piano, organ, sackbut) is inanimate and lifeless, and it cannot deliver or communicate "the word of Christ" to those in attendance.

Dave, it is really that simple. Just go with the right flow--churches of Christ simply do not indulge in this form of musical idolatry. The church of Christ, of which you claim to be a member, does not allow inanimate, lifeless musical devices to participate in the assembly of saints. Anyone can easily find musical entertainment and performances outside the assembly of the church. If I were you and still strongly believed in such a practice so as to enhance worship, I would not teach or recommend it to others in the brotherhood. In other words, don't encourage division in the church. Rather, keep your false teaching to yourself. Even your own congregation, as a body of believers, does not need this kind of pollution and diversion.

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(no login)

Quite Simple

May 14 2011, 9:17 AM 

You said something that I agree with Donnie.
You said that "churches of Christ simply do not indulge in this form of musical idolatry."

Remember now, there are some churches of Christ that use instrumental music, and some do not. I am not talking about the Christian church. There are churches of Christ that DO use instrumental music, which you also have agreed (99.98888%).
If they are a church of Christ, then they are the bride of Christ, whether instrumental or non-instrumental.

If you disagree and take issue with any church of Christ, then YOU disagree with Jesus Christ.
Simple, isn't it?

Hey Donnie, you seem to enjoy the older 4 part harmony. Do you think that the Lord enjoys the alto section better or the tenor section?

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Quite Simple

May 14 2011, 6:42 PM 

Dave seems to think that if a congregation calls itself "church of Christ," then it is automatically the "bride of Christ," whether it has instrumental music or not.

By that same fallacious reasoning, if a person can quote Scripture, then he is automatically a Christian. We all know that Satan can quote Scripture; we also know that he is NOT a Christian.

How can a church that calls itself "church of Christ" be the "bride of Christ" if it goes above what is written in the New Testament? Therefore, a congregation that calls itself "church of Christ" but has instrumental music is NOT a true church of Christ congregation, because it goes above what is written in the New Testament: it adds more to God's command than what God specifies. It is a rogue congregation that abuses the name "church of Christ.

THAT is quite simple; it's too bad that many people will not believe it.

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(no login)

The churches of Christ

May 15 2011, 12:18 AM 

Good thing here don't have the right to judge the Lord's church.....only God has that right.
Is God directly talking to you William, are you inspired? Didn't think so. You have condemned the Lord's church without Scriptural backing. You have put the Lord's church up for public ridicule instead of keeping it in-house.
We have already have proven that the use of instrumental music has nothing to do with qualifying whether a church is of Christ or not.
Therefore it is you, William, who takes it upon himself to tear down the Lord's church, and it is YOU will pay for it. No one to blame but yourself.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: The Churches of Christ

May 15 2011, 8:50 AM 

Dave wrote earlier: "If they are a church of Christ, then they are the bride of Christ, whether instrumental or non-instrumental."

Did God directly talk to you, Dave? Did He tell you that a congregation can be the bride of Christ, regardless of its take on instrumental music? Are you inspired? I didn't think so. What Dave said above is merely his erroneous OPINION.

Dave says he has "proven" that the use of IM has nothing to do with whether a congregation is of Christ or not. If Dave has "proven" anything, it's only been to himself, because he sees nothing wrong with having IM in the assembly; perhaps he would even like to see it implemented in his own congregation. Otherwise, Dave has proven NOTHING to mainstream church of Christ congregations.

A congregation is obviously NOT "of Christ" if it defies the New Testament and adds something more to a command that God has given. A congregation cannot be "of Christ" if it skirts or alters or changes the commands of the New Testament. Only those who subscribe to the Change Movement believe that it is "Scriptural" to do as they please and change God's commands. Of course, there is no New Testament evidence to support that premise.

So in fact, those who bend and twist the commands of the New Testament are the ones who are trying to destroy the Church (whether they realize it or not) under the guise of making it more pleasing and palatable to the masses. Dragging IM into the picture is but one such attempt. But those people's efforts only backfire in their faces, because the REAL Church of Christ can never be destroyed by the likes of Dave and his minions of change agents, no matter how hard they try. They cry, "We love the Lord's church!" If they want to "prove" something, let them prove their love by keeping God's New Testament commandments (John 14:15) and certainly by NOT changing them in any way.

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(no login)

No Love for our Lord's Church

May 15 2011, 6:19 PM 

The liberals here at concernedmembers have PROVEN they they don't love the Lord's church. They have truly PROVEN they at they don't care to follow the NT pattern. What is the pattern spelled out if there are problems with brethren?
Matthew 18
15 If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Wait a second...I know what it is now.

1 Timothy 5
20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

When Donnie and Ken and William saw the word "ALL" they thought it meant for ALL the world to see, right? Including ALL those outside the church, right?
WRONG!!! ALL means EVERYONE in the brotherhood....but they knew that already.

Did Donnie and Ken and William follow the Word here?
No! They decided to take it on their own and published this forum for the whole world to see. They believe their way to be better than God's Way.
They have sinned!

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Truth: The Change Agents Lead the Liberals; ConcernedMembers Opposes Them

May 16 2011, 3:41 AM 


You are barking up the wrong tree. You should be looking much closer to home.

You see, Dave, it's common knowledge that change agents are unwilling to start their own church(es) from scratch. Instead, they're the ones who operate within the Lord's church making all attempts, knowingly or unknowingly, to sow discord in the Lord's church.

The mission of the change agents is to transform the church that Christ established into a denomination. They are friends with the denominations; they would like the church of Christ to behave like denominational churches; they have acquired doctrines and beliefs from their denominational neighbors or invent their own:

1. Restructuring church organization;
2. New role of women -- women leading men in the church;
3. Altering the meaning and purpose of baptism;
4. Expanding the Lord's Supper as also a fellowship meal/brunch;
5. Extending "church" fellowship with those outside of the church;
6. Accepting membership from any denom. without the NT way;
7. Ridiculing their Restoration heritage & rewriting its history;
8. Emulating "worship style" and programming made for TV;
9. Incorporating psychology and philosophy into church programs;
a. Using denominational sources & materials in "Bible studies";
b. Inviting denom. speakers and lectures to the congregation;
c. Holding mixed services and gatherings with denom. groups;
d. De-emphasizing pure biblical studies;
e. Regressing from New Testament teachings to OT law & observances;
f. Digressing from worship in spirit & truth to mechanical music;
g. etc., etc., etc.

Now, Dave, just who is loyal to Christ and HIS CHURCH? The liberals headed by change agents doing those things listed above (and more) -- sowing discord, insulting Christ, destroying the church He built, distorting the New Testament pattern?


Yours is the WRONG identification of the liberals. You should know much better than that!

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: No Love for our Lord's Church

May 16 2011, 7:52 AM 

In another thread, Donnie recently posted "Please STOP" all the personal attacks. Dave's recent post continues to smear this site as well as Donnie, Ken, and Dr. Crump. I ask that this and all future posts like it be dumped into the Special Den of Vipers or deleted altogether.

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(no login)

Re: No Love for our Lord's Church

May 16 2011, 12:48 PM 

Perhaps as a sign of good faith, Dr. Crump will "walk the walk" and not just "talk the talk". Barnyard antics (clucking like a chicken) are very immature. BTW, that's just my opinion and observation.

The moderator's requests are reasonable and well founded.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: No Love for our Lord's Church

May 16 2011, 2:08 PM 

Yes, the moderator's request is reaonable and well founded. Talk about immaturity, when the moderator says "Please STOP" the personal attacks, it is also immature for a person to keep attacking certain posters here with, "You don't love the Lord's church" and "You will pay" (implying damnation in hell) because those posters disagree with him. Moreover, I think that posters who maintain some form of anonymity and will not reveal their whole, true identities are basically immature. BTW, that's just my opinion and observation.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: No Love for our Lord's Church

May 18 2011, 7:48 PM 

If the shoe were on the other foot and I were a bettin' man, I'd bet that if Dave had been hurling chicken squawks at Dr. Crump instead of "curses," R* would have been right there urging Dave on: "Yeah, Dave! Go! Go! STICK IT to that %@#@& Dr. Crump!!" happy.gif

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(no login)

Re: No Love for our Lord's Church

May 17 2011, 7:29 AM 

"In another thread, Donnie recently posted "Please STOP" all the personal attacks."


Dr. Crump, did you know the moderator (Donnie) made the request to stop the personal attacks in THIS thread? It was in the first post of THIS thread. Some 90+ posts have happened since he made the request. Did you really not know that? Perhaps a review of the header post in THIS thread is in order. Let's support the moderator's request.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on May 26, 2011 4:25 AM

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(no login)

It Is What It Is

May 16 2011, 10:04 PM 

R*......another thing.......if you don't agree with William, if you aren't his yes man....then get ready to be dealt your fair of slander. William shows no bias. Come new and come old, whatever truth you lay at his feet he can shake it off him like water on a duck's back.

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(no login)


May 16 2011, 10:15 PM 

Donnie, you asked "Now, Dave, just who is loyal to Christ and HIS CHURCH?"

It isn't you or anyone who supports your tearing down the churches of our Lord and putting them up for pubic ridicule, like you continue to do here.

Donnie, how does your whining and presenting your gripes and complaints before the public feel now?
Hey Donnie, you say that there is no AUTHORITY for having instrumental music in your hourly worship.....where do you get such authority to bring complaints against any Lord's church for in such a public manner for even heathens to witness? You don't have such authority. In fact, you have gone against the manner in which the Scriptures tell us to act.
It tells us to keep it within the church ONLY.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

A Disciple of Christ

May 16 2011, 10:48 PM 

A Disciple of Christs hungers and thirsts to know all that they can possible know about God the Father and Jesus of Nazareth who is still SPIRIT and out only Master Teacher. It's an easy test. Sons of the Devil speak on their own: a Disciple will warn off the Dogs and Wolves (Catamites or praise howlers).

Jesus said that Doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge: a Disciple of Christ will prove that God always makes fools of theologians.

John 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying,
.....How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said,
.....My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 7:17 If any man will do his will,
.....he shall know of the doctrine,
.....whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

People who compose their own sermons and present it with the what Jesus called the Hypocritics arts--rhetoricians, singers and instrument players--a disciple has the duty to warn those WITH EARS that hypocrites will be cast alive into the lake of fire. Fools will not listen and Jesus spoke to the Scribes and Pharisees in parables. Too bad, too sad.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory:
.....but he that seeketh his glory that sent him,
.....the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Those who manufacture their own "updated" sermosn are seeking their own glory and are therefore unrighteous. Jesus nor Paul asked no permission to point out the thieves and liars.

John 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them:
.....but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
.....I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:9 I am the door: me if any man enter in, he shall be saved,
.....and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:
.....I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd:
.....the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

A man with Testesterone will try to silence the thieves and soul murderers: whiners can just whine.

If you are not OF TRUTH or OF FAITH you will NOT hear the voice of the Shepherd.
If people follow the dogs and wolves then they are NOT lambs and if they do not flee Babylon they will fall into the ditch (pit or lake of fire) with the rhetoricians, singers and instrument players John and all of history calls SORCERERS: thou shalt not defend a sorcer or witch an NOT be cast alive into the lake of fire.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)


May 16 2011, 10:53 PM 

Donnie said, "Please STOP" the personal attacks. I guess Dave has no intention of stopping his personal attacks on those who disagree with him. I do wish that some action would be taken about that.

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...........................THE BOOK

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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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