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TESTING PAGE WIDTH and IMAGES (#2) -- Please Do Not Respond

May 22 2011 at 3:24 AM
Donnie Cruz  (Login Donnie.Cruz)
from IP address

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:

  • Prayers for the dead
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
  • Extreme Unction
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
  • Canonization of dead saints
  • ... and so many, many more
It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.


Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

THE SIN: Denominationalizing of the Lord's Church by the Change Agents

May 22 2011, 3:25 AM 

Many sympathizers and disciples of the change agents, including Dave and Fred, refuse to see and understand the destructive and divisive activities and schemes of their leaders. They give credit to them as the ones who "love the Lord's church" despite their efforts to subvert, pervert, transform, divide the body of Christ. And the ones who MARK them that cause division in the church are being condemned by mechanical music lovers (Dave and Fred) as "sinners." Last time I checked it was the omniscient God [not Dave or Fred] who made that determination (of "who sins")!!! Let's get back to the crux of the whole matter. The cause of the change agents operating in the brotherhood may be weakening, but I believe that they are still actively committed to:
  1. Restructuring church organization;
  2. Women leading men in the church -- new role of women;
  3. Altering the meaning and purpose of baptism;
  4. Expanding the Lord's Supper as being also a fellowship meal/brunch;
  5. Extending "church" fellowship with those outside of the church;
  6. Accepting membership from any denomination without the NT way;
  7. Ridiculing their Restoration heritage and rewriting its history;
  8. Emulating "worship style" and programming made for TV;
  9. Incorporating psychology and philosophy into church programs;
  10. Using denominational sources and materials in "Bible studies";
  11. Inviting denominational speakers and lecturers to the congregation;
  12. Holding mixed services and gatherings with denominational groups;
  13. De-emphasizing pure biblical studies;
  14. Regressing from New Testament teachings to OT law and observances;
  15. Digressing from worship in spirit and truth to mechanical music;
  16. etc., etc., etc.
Too bad, sad and unfortunate that Dave and Fred are not concerned about how destructive are the agenda and schemes of the change agents. These activities and schemes are SINFUL!!! Marking the dividers and sowers of discord is NOT SINFUL. The Scripture teaches it!

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Ken Sublet
(Login Donnie.Cruz)


May 22 2011, 3:35 AM 

[linked image]
[linked image]

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Ken Sublet
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Asking too much?

May 22 2011, 3:38 AM 

It may be asking too much for people who have been patterned by sermons as opposed to the text and singing songs calculated to turn you into to women to understand.,

I know of no scholar or preacher who can read the black text on white paper and NOT see what they have always been taught:

[linked image]

Maybe someone would like to twist that?

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Ken Sublet
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Part Two

May 22 2011, 3:40 AM 

[linked image]

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

The Questions Were Simple

May 22 2011, 3:43 AM 

I was very seriously and sincerely asking you those questions for clarification. You'd been accusing me of misquoting your stance on using musical instruments in the assembly of saints.

You'd gone so far as calling me a liar and as a result, sinning, sinning "against the Lord's church" and in need of repentance; cursed; etc. -- strongly suggesting that YOU were/are not any of the above.

You may be correct that after all the messages you've posted, I have misunderstood your viewpoints--maybe one or two or possibly all of your opinions. That's why I have broken down my questions so that I may know exactly where I have misunderstood you. Let me point out--and I believe it's common knowledge--that when Peter misunderstands Paul, it doesn't mean that Peter is a liar, or vice versa. It is only a misunderstanding; it is not lying.

It is possible that I have misunderstood your viewpoints. So, I need you to help me out here. If you need to qualify your choice of YES or NO, please do not hesitate to explain in detail if needed. You can straighten me out with a simple YES [it is truth] or NO [it is a lie] to each of the following:

[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that God approves/authorizes IM;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that God is pleased with musical devices in praise;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that we emulate David for playing instruments;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that PA equates with IM, therefore, both are OK;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that "a cappella" is only a tradition.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Part Three: FOR those not already marked

May 22 2011, 3:46 AM 

[linked image]

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Ken Sublet
(no login)

Ephesiahs 4 OUTLAWS rhetoricians, singers, instrument players and dacers

May 22 2011, 3:48 AM 

People who quote proof-texts are out to deceive you: and since TIME IS SHORT even preachers and scholars are joining the merry band:

[linked image]
[linked image]
[linked image]

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Ken Sublet
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Music to deceive and make Jesus dumb before the slaughter.

May 22 2011, 3:50 AM 

The "Love" weapon is a last resort for those who know that they have a short time to serve their master: Apollo lumped instruments and making love.

Matt. 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately,
saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?
and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
and of the end of the world?

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,
Take heed that no man deceive you.

plan-sis , es,
A. making to wander : dispersing, scattering, tn nen Th.8.42.
2. metaph., misleading,
2. wander in speaking, p. en t log Hdt.2.115; digress, p. apo tou logou Pl.Plt.263a.
6. in forensic Rhet., khrmata peplanmena, metathesis pep., of alternative pleas, Hermog. Stat.3.
7. to be misled, hupo phns koinottos Phld.Sign.7; tais homnumiais ib.36.

phn-e , (phn)
A. produce a sound or tone:
4. of a musical instrument, sound, E.Or.146 (lyr.); of sounds, hdu phnein sound sweetly, Plu.2.1021b; but bront ph. it has a voice, is significant, X.Ap.12.

4. of sounds made by inanimate objects, mostly Poet., kerkidos ph. S.Fr.595; suriggn (flute) E.Tr.127 (lyr.); auln Mnesim.4.56 (anap.); rare in early Prose, organn phnai Pl.R.397a; freq. in LXX, h ph. ts salpiggos LXX Ex.20.18; ph. bronts ib. Ps.103(104).7; h ph. autou hs ph. hudatn polln Apoc.1.15.

These are the musical weapons of Apollo, Abaddon or Apollo: He was the father of harmony including plucking the bow string, plucking his harp string or plucking with LOVE ARROWS.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Fred's Depth of Biblical Wisdom

May 22 2011, 3:52 AM 

  • He defends his "young" brother (Dave) and his "words of truth" -- regardless -- even though Dave is incapable of citing a single passage of scripture [because there is NONE] to support his stance on the use of musical machines in the assembly of saints.

  • He affirms Dave's ideation that NOT USING musical devices in the assembly, rather than rather PLAYING, is the tradition (i.e., human or man-made). It makes no sense. It's like saying that:

    1. "a third-world barrio that does not play American football at all" is the tradition; but...

    2. "a U.S. city with two teams that play football every Saturday afternoon, rain or shine" is NOT a tradition.

  • He needs to take the piano with him whether he goes so that when he worships and praises God, he has the instrument readily accessible and playable.

  • Dave is not blind; Fred is not blind; one of them does not lead the other. Of course, not. The difference is that Dave's congregation, contrary to Dave's belief, is NON-INSTRUMENTAL ... whereas Fred's congregation is on its way to deviating from the mainstream church of Christ by using musical objects in its assembly. Hopefully, Fred will be bold enough to add his congregation to the list of churches that are now Community Churches or associated with the Christian Church denomination.

  • It is very doubtful that Fred really "luvs" Dr. Crump. Dave has already condemned this "evil" website and its conservative posters.

  • In so far as "doctrinal error" is concerned, Dave and Fred, by all means, should stay away from that until they both have scriptural evidence that God has ever commanded, authorized or approved or has ever been pleased with the use of inanimate, lifeless musical inventions of man.

  • Fred has already determined someone else's destination who does not agree with him and Dave [no need to figure out what they're thinking].

  • Fred is offering God's love and mercy to others if they change from right to wrong.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

The MARK of the thorns which prick

May 22 2011, 3:54 AM 

Heb. 6:6YNG and having fallen away, again to renew [them] to reformation,
......having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame
Heb 6:[6]Douay (Impossiile) And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance,
......crucifying again to themselves the Son of God,
......and making him a [b]mockery.

......Ostentus , s, m. ostendo.
......I. n gen., a showing, [b]exhibiting, display (not in Cic. or Cæs.):
............corpora extra vallum abjecta ostentui, [i]a public spectacle, [/i]Tac. A. 1, 29: atrocitatis, Gell. 20, 1, 48.

Heb. 6:6NET and then have committed apostasy,6 to renew them again to repentance,
......since7 they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again8
......and holding him up to contempt

......recrucify Hdt. 3.125

......G3856 paradeigmatiz par-ad-igue-mat-id'-zo From G3844 and G1165 ;
............ [b]to show alongside (the public), that is, expose to infamy:
............[b]make a public example, put to an open shame.
......G1165 deigmatiz digh-mat-id'-zo From G1164 ; to exhibit:make a shew.

Heb. 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it,
......and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb. 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected,
......and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Isa 5:6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged;
......but there shall come up briers and thorns:
......I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

Isa 5:7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant:
......and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression;
......for righteousness, but behold a cry.

......Caaqah (h6818) tsah-ak-aw'; from 6817; a shriek: - cry (-ing).
......Caaq (h6817) tsaw-ak'; a prim. root; to shriek; (by impl.) proclaim (an assembly): - * at all, call together, cry (out), gather (selves) (together).

Isaiah 5: 11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning,
......that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them

Isaiah 5: 12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts:
......but they regard not the work of the Lord,
......neither consider the operation of his hands.

......I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies. Am.5:21

Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge:
......and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Fred Whaley: Are the Denominations That Do Not ... "the Church"?

May 22 2011, 3:56 AM 

Fred Whaley (no login)
Re: NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition? May 2 2011, 3:46 PM

If name-calling and grammatical corrections are not allowed then the crass Doctor Crump will feel disinterested. Fred on the other hand would like to chime in with questions for Donnie Cruz. If the "denominations" do not practice these Roman Catholic traditions does this mean they are also "the church." Do not the most conservative in the Church of Christ speak and treat the Church of Christ as a denomination? And doesn't the Catholic Church practice singing more biblically than the Church of Christ? They sing in unison rather than four-part harmony. So does this mean the Church of Christ is not the true church because of a worship practice begun by man of four-part harmony?

Fred Whaley

1. Question: Are they also "the church"? No, Buddhism does not practice these Roman Catholic traditions; Buddhism is not "the church." Islam does not practice Roman Catholic traditions; Islam is not "the church. The "denominations" are organized religious faiths or bodies -- they are not "the church." No, I did not imply what you were hoping for me to say that "denominations" which do not practice the RCC traditions (worship of the Virgin Mary, prayers for the dead, worship of images and relics) are also "the church."

2. The church is best described by its own history as the kingdom or church prophesied in the O.T., Matt. 16, etc., and fulfilled as the kingdom or the church in Acts 1,2. The various congregations that comprise the body of believers in Christ are churches of Christ (Rom. 16). I do not agree with your assertion that the most conservative in the church [l.c.] of Christ "speak and treat" the church [l.c.] of Christ as a denomination. The conservative, when properly taught, believes that the church established by Christ is not a denomination. The church is the bride of Christ, God's family, and is comprised of members who have been buried with Christ in baptism and added to His body. [In my personal writings, it makes sense to me not to capitalize the word "church" when used in a sentence or a paragraph. I would capitalize the word "church" when it is part of the title, of the name of a book, etc., and used as a proper noun.]

3. Any singing that is simple and understandable is closer to the type of singing described in Scripture. A complex 4-part harmony may possibly negate the effectiveness of the message being delivered in the song. But a harmony of singing is not far from singing in unison. The harmony is provided for the purpose of allowing folks to sing within their vocal rangeS and it does not violate the principle of singing with melody in the heart. Often we are misled by the notion that singing is the main objective expressed in Colossians 3 and Ephesians 5.

It is about letting "the word of Christ dwell in you richly," stupid! This is the main command--NOT music. We are to TEACH and ADMONISH ONE ANOTHER in ... songs. SPEAKING to yourselves.... Singing is one medium of communicating the word of Christ to/with one another.

If teaching and admonishing one another via speaking or singing is a component in learning God's truth as the saints gather, what does that do and say about using lifeless and inanimate musical devices in letting "the word of Christ dwell in"? Hmmm!!!

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Comparing Apples (Melodious Vocal Harmony) vs. Oranges (the Piano)

May 22 2011, 3:58 AM 

1. When the discussion is about the fact that there is NOT ONE scripture to support man's opinion:

(a) that God has ever commanded His followers to worship Him with musical devices;
(b) that God has ever authorized or approved mechanical music in the assembly;
(c) that God has ever been pleased with musical idolatry (the band and dancing);
(d) that what's not specifically forbidden equates to permission...

Dave, with his leading change agents and their disciples, is hesitant and afraid to discuss the issue further. He becomes dormant.

The same attitude is evident, and the truth is completely ignored, when the trumpet lovers are confronted with the fact that the real command is NOT about music or any type of music, for that matter, as revealed in Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3:
It is about letting "the word of Christ dwell in you richly," stupid! This is the main command--NOT music. We are to TEACH and ADMONISH ONE ANOTHER in ... songs. SPEAKING to yourselves.... Singing is one medium of communicating the word of Christ to/with one another.
2. But a mere mention of vocal harmony wakes up the instrumental music lovers and idolaters.

3. The entertained musical worship attendees are quick to use the "4-part harmony" as their offensive weapon against the purpose of the assembling of the church, which is NOT about MUSIC but to:
"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."
I mentioned "4-part harmony" because that was the expression used by Fred Whaley. And Dave quickly acted like a twister. BTW, Dave, you can fill in the number suitable to you in support of your weak and fallacious argument: a 2- or 3- or 4- or 12-part harmony really does not matter for they all fall in the same category. Any vocal harmony that distorts the truth (a.k.a. God's truth or "the word of Christ") in the song does not serve the purpose of the gathering.

Vocal harmony or singing that does not distort the clarity and veracity of the message being delivered or communicated is just fine by scriptural specifications. Singing is one medium of delivery or communication of God's word as it is being taught. Better yet is "speaking to yourselves." Any musical device (trumpet, harp, piano, organ, sackbut) is inanimate and lifeless, and it cannot deliver or communicate "the word of Christ" to those in attendance.

Dave, it is really that simple. Just go with the right flow--churches of Christ simply do not indulge in this form of musical idolatry. The church of Christ, of which you claim to be a member, does not allow inanimate, lifeless musical devices to participate in the assembly of saints. Anyone can easily find musical entertainment and performances outside the assembly of the church. If I were you and still strongly believed in such a practice so as to enhance worship, I would not teach or recommend it to others in the brotherhood. In other words, don't encourage division in the church. Rather, keep your false teaching to yourself. Even your own congregation, as a body of believers, does not need this kind of pollution and diversion.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

A "spirit" made him do it: me too!

May 22 2011, 4:08 AM 

Those who fall into the musical burning pit have followed the patternism of hiring an entertaining rhetorician at a high price. He usually works out a scheme to make the elders just HIS Shepherds (Shelly) but the preacher is THE LEADER in the pastor sense of denominations.

He, despising all of the opposition to vocational deacons finds a way to replace them with male and female "special servants" on the dole.

The song leading task which has trained many people for further service is replaced with a HIRELING worship minister who in turn uses his praise team and sells CD's of their performance.

The ministry system uses the pyramid pattern (Richland Hills) like a tower of Babylon. "Ministers" are hired to suck up your time and money with ministry para-church groups devoted to everything BUT teaching the Word as it has been taught.

These hirelings are spin-offs of the Lucifer (Zoe)-principle and are craftsmen not required to be Disciples of Christ. They are SELF MARKED and the command is to cast them out and MARK them: there is no patternism of taking false teachers through a corrective procedure: they have demonstrated by their actions that they are not teachable.

I quote a site which has used lots of my tithes and offerings papters.

1 Timothy 6:5-10

And constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, WHO SUPPOSE THAT GODLINESS (i.e. religion) IS A MEANS OF GAIN. But godliness actually is a means of great gain, when accompanied by contentment. For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either. And if we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires, which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang. (#3: NASB)

Other Translations

(#6: The Living Bible) These arguerstheir minds warped by sindont know how to tell the truth; to them the Good News is just a means of making money. Keep away from them.

(#9:Amp) men who are corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, who imagine that godliness or righteousness is a source of profita money-making business, a MEANS OF LIVELIHOOD. From such withdraw.

Men willing to deliberately sow massive discord beginning among the elders to impose lusted after musical performers who embarasses half of the flock which flees are "depraved and deprived of the truth."

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Ken Sublet
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

May 22 2011, 4:11 AM 

[linked image]
[linked image]

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

No, Dave, we're exposing the change agents and their followers

May 22 2011, 4:13 AM 


You keep forgetting, and we keep reminding you, that you need to deal with the ROOT OF THE PROBLEM. You have completely missed the boat. You have no comprehension whatsoever of the principle of "CAUSE and EFFECT."

The objectives and culture-driven schemes of the change agents to "GROW THE CHURCH" are the ROOT CAUSE of what's happening in the brotherhood. And you, Dave, are one of their cohorts.

So, you think that you are exposing us? I think not. We are on the conservative side--the exact OPPOSITE of you, left-wing liberals. We are aligned with the 40,000-congregation worldwide brotherhood of the church of Christ. You, on the other hand, sympathize with and follow the change agents, who align themselves with the denominations.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

The guilt clause

May 22 2011, 4:14 AM 

In postmodernism it is not a lie if you have a better plan to "save more souls."

The rest of it is the GUILT CLAUSE as old as Adam and used by ALL of the hate mongers against those who will not bow down when they blow their flute.

[linked image]

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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