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How to Settle a Brother's Dispute with Another Brother in the Church

June 1 2011 at 6:09 AM
Donnie Cruz  (Login Donnie.Cruz)
from IP address

We were discussing as to which one of these is the human (man-made) tradition:

(1) Using musical devices in public "worship"?
--------------------- OR ----------------------
(2) NOT using musical devices in the assembly of saints?

Just check out this thread: "NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?" It is obvious that this thread on instrumental music has been hijacked. How so? A considerable amount of time and repetitive remarks has been utilized by one respondent who insists on deviating and diverting from the subject matter at hand.

Dave, I am doing you a favor. I honestly have no desire to neglect an important message of yours concerning: "When thou [a brother in the Corinthian church] disputest thine own brother [also in the Corinthian congregation], settlest thou such before the unjust, and not before the saints?"

The following messages have been extracted from this thread: "NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly...." Such will continue to be discussed without being diverted to Dave's indignation.
  • Dave: "Concerned Members....A Den of Liars" May 2 2011, 12:09 PM

    First, Donnie, you lied....again. I caught Ken in a lie the other day when he attributed something unSciptural to Jesus. I want to prove that you ALSO have lied.

  • Dave: "Evil Begets Evil" May 3 2011, 8:08 AM

    Here, with a public audience you try to work your evil magic.....again. You have tried time and time again, with me, to "act out" the part of a CONCERNED Christian. Donnie, with the way you have handled most everything here, including dealing with anyone that disagrees with you, and even more importantly the manner in which you have violated even the congregation that you attend, I would consider you more of an enemy of the Lord, and not merely me.

  • Dave: "Judgement Rains" May 4 2011, 8:56 AM

    So Donnie, in all of your diatribe, it simply means that you can't prove what you accused me are a liar. Your #5 asked why I would insist on on calling you a liar. Donnie, you and William Crump, and Ken Sublett are enemies of the Lord's church. You have sinned and will not repent of your sins against the Lord's church. Truth is, because of the reproach that you have brought against yourself for your personal slander against the Lord's church, you cannot be considered a brother.

  • Dave: "ETERNITY is Coming Soon" May 5 2011, 12:13 AM

    William, I'm the one who is giving a hate message? Oh no, William, for it is not I, but you and Ken and Donnie, who continually TRY and slander the Lord's church. YOU spew forth the vile hatred. Unfortunately, someone, like me, just happened to call your number on it. Such a public offense and sin is not against one or more persons, but against the Lord's church in general. All you have to do is repent, and you are off the hook.

  • Dave: "It Is What It Is" May 5 2011, 8:51 AM

    YES Donnie, you can call it "warning" all you want, but it is "slander" against the Lord's church. When Paul counseled the churches and "warned" them, did he post the letter on every tree to get everyone's attention, including those outside the brotherhood? Did he send the letter just to the congregation? Yes!

  • Dave: "Same Ole Same Ole" May 6 2011, 11:58 AM

    Donnie, you went about all of this in a sinful manner. Your gripes and complaints should have never come to a public forum such as this. YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND HAVE DONE! You need to repent.

  • Dave: "You are CONCERNED, but Not About the Truth" May 7 2011, 12:14 PM

    Donnie, you have sinned. You could have kept this inside the church, but ... posting your gripes for all the world to see.

  • Dave: "Here We Go" May 7 2011, 9:12 PM

    More on....THE LIES. ... Yes, Donnie, since you can't prove your allegations against me, which means you lied, then why not show people that these sins of lies are not surprising.

  • Dave: "Is Your Soul Worth It?" May 9 2011, 4:11 PM

    1 John 4 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. You men are not brothers. You have seen to that yourself. No one else pulled you into this sinful existence. You have condemned our Lord's church, and therefore cannot be considered brothers. You have proven that you do NOT love our Lord's church. ... but with a public repentance you can get yourself out.

  • Dave: "CURSED" May 12 2011, 3:51 PM

    Hebrews 6:8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being CURSED. In the end it will be burned. Concernedmembers is worthless land.

  • Dave: "The churches of Christ" May 15 2011, 12:18 AM

    You have condemned the Lord's church without Scriptural backing. You have put the Lord's church up for public ridicule instead of keeping it in-house.

  • Dave: "No Love for our Lord's Church" May 15 2011, 6:19 PM

    They decided to take it on their own and published this forum for the whole world to see. They believe their way to be better than God's Way. They have sinned!

  • Dave: "WHO WHO" May 16 2011, 10:15 PM

    Donnie, how does your whining and presenting your gripes and complaints before the public feel now? Hey Donnie, ...where do you get such authority to bring complaints against any Lord's church for in such a public manner for even heathens to witness? You don't have such authority. In fact, you have gone against the manner in which the Scriptures tell us to act. It tells us to keep it within the church ONLY.

  • Dave: "You Still Have Time" May 17 2011, 9:36 AM

    Donnie, where do you get your authority for EXPOSING anything of a negative nature about any of the Lord's church here on a public forum such as this? The NT example and Scripture tells us to keep it WITHIN the church. You are blatantly wrong and you know it. ... Donnie, this is YOUR doing and that is why you keep it within the church, because others OUTSIDE the church see this horrific mess and want to have nothing to do with the church.

  • Dave: "You Have Sinned" May 19 2011, 10:18 AM

    Donnie.....ALL of this pertains to WITHIN the still says IN the brotherhood, not for all of the world to see. No matter how you slice the cake Donnie, bringing anyone within the brotherhood up for public ridicule (meaning those outside the brotherhood witnessing this spectacle) then you are wrong and have sinned.... You have sinned.

  • Dave: "Immaturity" May 20 2011, 8:57 AM

    Donnie, When you continue to abuse Scriptures to benefit your wickedness, really, there is not much hope for you. ... The Scriptures here are for calling down someone yes....but not in front of non-believers. 1 Corinthians 6 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people?

    Donnie, there is no leeway here. You know this scripture though.....but you ignore it. ANY dispute within the brotherhood, should never come up in front of the public. YOU KNOW THAT! You have SINNED!

  • Dave: "Woe Unto You....." May 20 2011, 3:17 PM

    Yes Wild Bill, I called you sinners down because you men started this site to smear our Lord's church and its disciples. YOU men went against the Scriptures when you disobeyed the following scripture... 1 Corinthians 6 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people? ... Bill, just so you don't feel left out I can honestly tell you......YOU ALSO have sinned!

  • Dave: "AM NOT....ARE TOO.....AM NOT.....ARE TOO....AM NOT...." May 21 2011, 11:57 AM

    You have a part in this sinful site...not me. All I have done is point out to everyone the obvious. You have brought the church of Christ up for public ridicule......not me. I am bringing YOU up for public disgrace for publicly condemning the churches. I have NOT condemned the Lord's church.....YOU have. I have given Scriptures to show that YOU have sinned for bringing the churches up for public slander.

  • Dave: "God Has Given You Another Day to Do What is RIght" May 22 2011, 10:05 AM

    Donnie, why are you tearing down the brotherhood? ... You say that you are for the brotherhood, yet use this satanic site of yours to ridicule the church. ... You are pharisees in disguise and more liberal than anything that walks the face of the earth.

  • Dave: "REPENT!!!" May 22 2011, 2:45 PM
    ... you DO KNOW that you have sinned. 1 Corinthians 6 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people?

  • Dave: "REP{ENT" May 22 2011, 10:09 PM

    ... Speaking of hypocrisy, this site is all about condemning others with whom you disagree, and doing against the way God prescribes it. ... 1 Corinthians 6 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people?

  • Dave: "Babble On" May 22 2011, 11:46 PM

    Donnie, you said "Every evil scheme of the change agents (perversion of the truth, diversion, destruction of the church, causing division in the body of Christ, etc.) that is exposed on this website is a BROTHERHOOD ISSUE. If it is a BROTHERHOOD ISSUE, then why bring it here for the ungodly to view also? Corinthians 6 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people? Repent!

  • Dave: "What We Have Here is a Failure to Communicate" May 23 2011, 8:30 AM

    My hateful postings? You are the one who started this site to tear down the church of our Lord Jesus Christ. ... You accuse me of judging you while you are the one condemning the brotherhood and the Lord's church through this satanic site> HYPOCRISY....pure and simple. REPENT Donnie.

  • Dave: "What Would It Take For You to Change?" May 23 2011, 12:18 PM

    YOU would not have taken disputes from the BROTHERHOOD.....and aired them for the ungodly to see. 1 Corinthians 6 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people?

  • Dave: "Repent" May 24 2011, 8:38 AM

    This site that you men started to publicly rebuke the bride of sinful. You men have given false testimony and have abused the Word of God. Repent!

  • Dave: "REPENT!!!" May 29 2011, 8:19 PM

    H. Camping says that you have until October 21 to get your life in order. God says you are only promised the present day. You guys like having your ears tickled so I am guessing that you will believe man instead of God. If I believed in luck I would wish you such. Believe in God.....Repent!!!!

  • Dave: "Do What You Want to Do" May 30 2011, 10:03 PM

    Donnie, ... I am just here to expose you for this sinful site and you being the authors of it. ... Repent and feel the Freedom of God.

  • Dave: "You Have Sinned" May 30 2011, 10:13 PM

    This site is a spawn from Satan ... having accused the Lord's church of wrongdoing in a public manner, such as this, have depraved evil minds and souls ... that to do this in a public manner instead of keeping it within the confines of the congregation is a sin. You need to publicly repent for your public sins. 1 Corinthians 6 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people? No matter how much you disagree with anyone or any congregration's leadership......YOU SINNED when you brought it here before the ungodly to examinie.

  • Dave: "Well....Since You are Editing....EDIT THIS!" May 30 2011, 10:25 PM

    ... This site should never have come into existence. It is the spawn of satan. Satan loves you and the men who have created this site. Satan wants this. He wants you to go up against the Lord's church. You men have his support. Instead of the loving course of action of keeping it in the church, you have fallen prey to the whims of satan. You have gone outside of what the Truth asks you to do when you have problems with anyone in the brotherhood. 1 Corinthians 6 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people? Yes, Donnie, you have dared......REPENT!!!

  • Dave: "YOU have Sinned!" May 30 2011, 11:27 PM

    ...YOU created this site......therefore YOU have sinned. ... Does your grip make the existence of this site right? Did you follow the precepts of the New Testament by creating this site to publicly ridicule those with whom you disagree? 1 Corinthians 6 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people? ... You brought it before the ungodly. YOU ... have sinned!
    Keep up your labor of sin.....see where it takes you!

  • Dave: "YOU Have Sinned" May 30 2011, 11:43 PM

    Donnie, these 'change agents' that you speak of.....Did they, or YOU go against God's instruction by creating this site to air grievances? YOU created this site.....not the so-called change agents. 1 Corinthians 6
    1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people?

  • Dave: "YES.....We Have an Effect Alright!" May 31 2011, 12:06 AM

    ... YOU had NO reason to bring ANY CAUSE here for the ungodly to view ... for a public viewing.....for the ungodly to see this. The ones with whom you disagree did not go against God's instruction for how to solve problems WITHIN the brotherhood. You did. The discussion will stay on this, not about how you believed you were wronged. 1 Corinthians 6 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people? ... YOU went against God's instruction by creating this site. You can't blame your sin on anyone but yourself.

  • Dave: "Immaturity is not a Christian Attrribute" May 31 2011, 2:24 AM

    Donnie, you say "You have an obligation, too, to warn peaceful congregations to reject the Community Church/Change Movement and to thwart the efforts of the change agents who advocate and propagate their evil, divisive and culture-driven schemes." If you believe/believed that something was wrong and would have acted in a manner acceptable to what God had commanded, then fine. YOU DID NOT!!! You went against the teachings of the Word of God. 1 Corinthians 6 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people? Your so-called "warning", if you believed in what you say, should NOT have been communicated to the 'ungodly,' as well as the brotherhood too. ... Repent!

  • Dave: "Antiquated?" May 31 2011, 9:39 AM

    Donnie, you said "So, their evil efforts must be thwarted by whatever means available. They could be sent letters of admonition but, Dave, the snail mail is almost as antiquated as carrying the message on horseback."

    1 Corinthians 6 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people?

    Who cares if the snail mail is antiquated? Any dispute would have stayed between you and the accused, which would have followed the instructions set forth in the Word of God. Taking your complaint here to this website, before the ungodly, has gone directly AGAINST the manner described in the Word of God. You KNOW you have sinned. Repent!
Hopefully, the reader has noticed that Dave mentioned both: (1) "just to the congregation" and (2) "in the brotherhood." We need some clarification regarding these expressions: Does he know the difference? This is important in discussing dispute settling between brothers.

Let's not consider the above messages as if Dave is sounding like a broken record. We must understand that he is very passionate about the matter of settling any dispute between brothers in the congregation.

I would ask Dave to refrain from posting in other threads anything related to settling any dispute between brothers. It should be discussed in this new thread. I would urge moderators to edit out or remove messages of this nature from the other thread: "NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?"

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Unrighteous Indignation

June 1 2011, 12:32 PM 

This thread is dedicated to Dave's favorite subject about which he is undoubtedly passionate. Let's continue posting Dave's verbal rampage here where it belongs -- not anywhere else.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)


June 1 2011, 12:39 PM 

Dave: "Repent!" June 1 2011, 8:58 AM
From Thread: NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

William, just like anyone who lives a sinful existence (alcoholism, drug addiction, etc.) ....they know that they are doing wrong but it is hard for them to change. You guys here are the same. You know it is wrong, but pride and arrogance keeps you sinning.
What is exceptional about this site is how grown men, who know better, can act so immature SUPPOSEDLY carrying on in the name of Christ.
The winking smile Bill.....would hold up well in court for a declaration of.....GUILTY as charged!
Am I clucking now?

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Solitary Confinement

June 1 2011, 2:02 PM 

Since Dave now only contributes posts that rehash the same theme (you-are-cursed-you-have-sinned-repent), this new thread is a form of solitary confinement for him. Here, he can be locked away to rave and howl to his heart's content forever.

The winking eye bids Dave a happy life sentence in this thread. wink.gif

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Repent!

June 2 2011, 10:43 AM 

Dave asked, "Am I clucking now?" What a coincidence that Dave should ask that question! Here in this thread, Dave can "lay an egg" with each of his one-track posts and CLUCK about it all day long. You might say that Dave just keeps CLUCKIN' (oh not truckin') along. wink.gif

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(no login)

To Post or Not to Post

June 1 2011, 7:59 PM 

What's the call Donnie?
It can't hurt you if it isn't true.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: To Post or Not to Post

June 1 2011, 8:29 PM 


This message comes from a non-religious website. I agree:

Post to your heart's content. You have every right. It may get posted in an hour or 10 minutes but you have the right to have your thoughts posted too.
Freedom of speech or expression is encouraged here. Based on most of your messages of late pertaining to your "feelings" about ConcernedMembers or to your favorite topic -- settling any dispute between brothers in the "congregation" [I think that's what you've been meaning to say all along] -- this is the thread just perfect for that.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

A parable

June 1 2011, 11:06 PM 

[linked image]

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(no login)


June 2 2011, 9:50 AM 

1 Corinthians 6
1 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lords people?

The Word of God has nothing to do with my "feelings." The Word isn't concerned about your feelings or mine. It is concerned about love and Truth. The Word will not change to make sure that your "feelings' are soothed because your "feelings" get hurt. It is there for men to accept and pattern their lives after so they can be at home in heaven with God one day.

This site, concerned, is in direct violation of God's Word and particularly 1 Corinthians 6 verse 1. You even said that you didn't want to do it the right way because regular mail (snail mail) is antiquated. You like traditions of a capella but not a tradition (regular mail) that would have kept you from sinning here? Regular mail would have kept these issues away from the ungodly. Meeting face to face, phone calls, emails (is emails antiquated too?), etc. Only your pride and arrogance keeps you from admitting to your sin. It isn't up for debate Donnie. You sinned.
Admit it, clean this mess up, and get on with your life.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Dave's Authority vs. Scriptural Authority

June 2 2011, 2:36 PM 

No, Dave, YOUR MIShandling of the truth, as well as your constant rampage, is up for debate. Your behavior (in word, in action) does not reflect that of a church leader, whether or not you are now an ex-elder. But the readers must know this about you, Dave; otherwise, to the readers, you'd be no different from those in the political arena, the liberals advocating the rejection and ultimate destruction of the U.S. Constitution.
Let's debate:

(1) Your twisted remarks (the Change Agents' scheme)

-------------------------- against ---------------

(2) The truth (Scripture)
We will also discuss:

(1) Your "feelings" -- [you brought this up] although irrelevant;
(2) This site -- that has nothing to do with I Cor. 6;
(3) Your twisted remark about the "snail mail";
(4) Your twisted remark about "a cappella" as a church tradition;
(5) Your twisted remark about "regular mail" as a tradition;
(6) Your twisted remark about "meeting face to face, phone calls, emails";
(7) Your twisted remark about YOU [God's spokesman?] in judging who sins;
(8) Your twisted remark about cleaning up "this mess";
(9) And so many more from your other posted messages.

There's an immediate solution to cleaning up "this mess" -- you're one of those who've contributed to "this mess."

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

What "keeps you from admitting to your sin"?

June 7 2011, 4:15 AM 


I initiated this thread for two main reasons:
  • (1) To seriously discuss an important matter that Dave has brought up -- disputes among brethren (as in the local church, cf. I Cor. 1ff, the Corinthian church) and settling any such dispute before "the heathen." The KJV renders the beginning verse of I Corinthians 6: "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?"

    To "go to law before the unjust" is an expression that is key to the discussion of settling disputes in a local congregation. "In a local congregation" is another key expression to consider in this discussion. OK, I have given away something that Dave can ponder on and, do some research, seek advice from religious experts.

  • (2) To attempt to satisfy Dave's pleasure of judging any other member who disagrees with his viewpoints: "You SINNED" ... "You, sinner, REPENT."
Let's get item #2 out of the way.

At the outset, I painstakingly re-posted the repetitive JUDGMENT coming from Dave's mouth, mind, and heart at least 30 times. Being repetitive reminds of a devout Catholic using "vain repetitions" when reciting the prayer (with the aid of the Rosary beads): "Hail Mary, full of grace...

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRs0Yt4g5xE5-lbvjBTE6KpcG3E2yukvpG8vRDWamRNsw8Y_LAbzA or images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTMH5vD-lSiI8yRE8YqAnPQbw42FZQfzMzJEvwvBpmSI38KXW- or images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTYLbH6maZanD824tImBtFDeybuedx8IBImFbX4Byw0LaudubU8

THE FIRST DECADE (9. ANNOUNCE ... 10. OUR FATHER ... 11. HAIL MARY ... 12. HAIL MARY ... 13. HAIL MARY ... 14. HAIL MARY ... 15. HAIL MARY ... 16. HAIL MARY ... 17. HAIL MARY ... 18. HAIL MARY ... 19. HAIL MARY ... 20. HAIL MARY ... 21. GLORY BE ... 22. O MY JESUS ...



Sorry for going to the extent of providing the image of the Rosary to illustrate your vain repetition of condemnation -- including the latest post of yours to which I am responding again. The finale of your most hateful, unbecoming-of-a-church-leader remark must come to an end. You have embarrassed yourself unnecessarily and enough already.

Now, hopefully, we can concentrate on a great topic for discussion -- reason #1 mentioned above. (And there are more related items to discuss.)

Let's start out with the fact that "going to the LAW before the unjust" is mentioned in that chapter. What does "the law" have to do with ConcernedMembers?

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: What "keeps you from admitting to your sin"?

June 7 2011, 1:43 PM 

Well, I get the impression that if Dave can no longer say that you're cursed, you're a sinner, and you need to repent, then he'd rather not post anything at all.

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(no login)

No Need to Wonder About This...

June 7 2011, 4:25 PM 

1 Corinthians 6
4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I SAY THIS TO YOUR SHAME. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?

ALSO this pertaining only to just civil law Donnie when it says "things pertaining to this life"??? No Donnie, it is not.

Donnie your diatribe about me speaking " least 30 times" about your [... ... ...] here at concernedmembers sounding like "Hail Marys...' is why you will not hear too much from me about this. You are immature, and as such, are not able to converse as an adult.
You know what you did is wrong. Period!
You have violated God's instructions on how to handle disagreements between brethren. You believed you were wrong (which isn't the issue here), wanted an active audience, you couldn't find one at Madison (or at least not the ones you wanted to listen to you), so you purchased one here with this website.

Again, it isn't up for debate. You are wrong! You have [... ... ...]

1 TImothy 5
19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning. 21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

Hey Donnie, I get it......since it says that you can reprove sinning elders before EVERYONE, that means here in front of the whole world, as you did/do here, right?
The way you interpret the Word, I am sure this is your way out.
Its called ABUSING the Word, and you do it quite well.


Dave, I removed parts of your post in brackets that would have made you sound as repetitive as reciting the "Hail, Mary!" AGAIN!!! That type of judgment or condemnation coming from another fellow of the human race must end. It is clearly unbecoming of you, an elder or an ex-elder of the church, to be saying what you've said "Hail, Mary" number of times already.

It is not a sin to warn peaceful congregations to beware that: "The Change Agents Are Coming! The Change Agents Are Coming!" Sorry to disappoint you that nobody here thwarting the destructive and divisive, slick advances and schemes of the change agents is sinning. The Scripture clearly teaches to mark them (Romans 16:17).

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Jun 8, 2011 12:33 AM

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(no login)

Back to Basics

June 7 2011, 4:44 PM 

Since you are most excellent at dodging the truth Donnie, let me ask a simple you believe anything said and done here by you and the others at this website has strengthened the church overall?

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Back to Basics

June 8 2011, 12:52 AM 


The truth -- that I would not dodge. But I will answer your simple question.

The simple answer is "yes." Unequivocally!

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(no login)


June 8 2011, 10:19 AM 

Well, you indeed surprised me Donnie. I believed that you would do your usual two-step or bossa nova with your diatribe. It really matters not that you answered the question falsely (this site could NEVER give any Glory to God or the church), but that you answered it at all.

Well done!

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

It's only your opinion.

June 8 2011, 2:44 PM 


I was surprised that you had not asked me to qualify my response (of "yes" or "no") in the first place.

You can make false judgments about my response, but you're not the one receiving e-mails from those who are supportive and/or seeking advice when they begin to smell something strange. [The smell, though, at its early stage, is not as strong as your advocacy for the trumpet or the piano to enhance "worship." So, just who is saying that making melody in the heart to the Lord is not good enough, and who is being destructive to the Lord's church? The answer is obvious.]

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(no login)

Obvious Indeed

June 8 2011, 3:49 PM 

The answer IS do NOT care to do what the Lord wants, but only what Donnie wishes.
Anyone with a bit of money and a penchant for losing his soul can start a website, such as this, that ridicules the church.

Revelation 22:20
He who testifies to these things says, Yes, I am coming soon. Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Obvious: Trumpet/Piano Lovers Are Entertained in the Assembly

June 8 2011, 4:18 PM 

No, Dave, I did not start this website that CAUTIONS peaceful, not-yet-infiltrated congregations to: "Beware! The Change Agents May Be Arriving Soon!!!"

Your anger and disrespect for God's truth to: "MARK them which cause DIVISIONS and offences CONTRARY TO the DOCTRINE which ye have LEARNED; and AVOID them (Rom. 16:17) is noteworthy and only helps this website to continue to WARN congregations and individuals that welcoming the change agents is inviting trouble for the church -- it is NOT WORTH it.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)


June 8 2011, 4:23 PM 

I see that Dave managed to get in his repetitous you-ridicule-the-church message. I guess the only reason it got posted was because it didn't contain the old cursed-sinner-repent sentiment that usually follows. Dave is learning to push as far as he can without being edited or censored.

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Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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