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A question for Donnie

June 7 2011 at 11:23 PM
Jimmy Joe  (no login)
from IP address 76.22.249.74

I have a short question for Donnie. To be concise I will also inform you the reason for the question. Donnie, did you ever serve in the military? I am asking because last Sunday Buck Dozier recognized a U.S. Marine that had just returned from combat in Afghanistan. The congregation rose to their feet and gave that Marine an ovation welcoming him safely back home. As I applauded and looked around at the other members showing their gratification I couldn't help but notice you in the critics pew sitting as if nothing had occured.

I come from a military family and am a veteran myself therefore I cannot understand how someone cannot recoginze the sacrifices of that Marine and all the others serving in the military today. Without their sacrifces and the sacrifices of the ones that served before them, the freedoms we enjoy today would not exist. Thanks to them, you have the freedom and the right to sit and ignore. It's your right but I just don't understand.

 
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AuthorReply
Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

It's a Fair Question

June 8 2011, 4:27 AM 

Jimmy Joe,

I do appreciate your military background and experience. (Since the time we met a few years ago, I have not forgotten what you told me about your services, as well as your family's, for the country I truly love.) Please don't get me wrong -- I truly get "emotional" about the sacrifices of those in service for the country. And, no, I did not serve in the military.

I have just listened to the first portion of the recording of the unusual -- "A Vision for the Future," the message delivered by "The Shepherds" [note to the reader: it's the trend and the now-preferred way to refer to them...instead of "elders"]. With the exception of Buck Dozier, the other three speakers have served only in these years since the upheaval. (BTW, I recall a phone conversation I had with Dozier a few years ago concerning the Madison congregation and ConcernedMembers. I made notes afterward, but it turned out that the conversation was more about the congregation than about CM--how that Nick Boone was not really the up-to-the-task type of "worship leader" for the youth; etc.; etc. It was a friendly conversation. I could say more; but your post is not really about Dozier. Dave Fields, are you listening to me?]

Anyway, you are correct in that Buck Dozier did make that recognition of the U.S. Marine who had just returned home.

My bad, OK? I think I was distracted by some of the "worship" activities. I had some difficulty hearing B. Dozier at first [perhaps an attention deficiency], although I had/have no problem at all listening to the overpowering "Praise Team" singing TO/FOR the congregation.

The "praise" music by Tim Hughes/Chris Tomlin titled "Beautiful One" was somewhat disturbing in that there seems to be the element of romanticism in both the lyrics and the music performed -- I know and realize there shouldn't be that element. (Note: this is one reason, according to RESEARCHES on Contemporary Christian Music, that men reluctantly and hesitatingly sing romantic songs about Jesus.)

Here's part of the lyrics:
"... how beautiful You are

Chorus:
Beautiful one I love
Beautiful one I adore
Beautiful one my soul must sing

[powerful ... glory ... mighty works ... majesty]

Chorus(x2)

... You captured my heart with this love
Cause nothing on earth is as beautiful as You

Jesus

... You captured my heart with this love
Cause nothing on earth is as beautiful as You
It is good that the elders are taking time to be concerned about the alarming news that, while comparing to the nationwide-worldwide trends to determine church problems, the Madison congregation is included in the realistic statistical information presented by them. Of course, why should they not admit to, or at least mention, the massive departure of members when the culture-driven church growth schemes of the change agents were implemented and wreaked havoc a decade ago? They are soliciting suggestions and solutions from the current membership. But one thing ought to be strongly considered is the elimination of the Praise Team. And return to congregational singing. That we've had enough of their performances. At least, donate the individual microphones they use to the Charismatic musical groups.

Well, I'm talking too much now, but I think there are those who might be interested in knowing about what's happening at Madison.

Jimmy Joe, thanks for asking. Would you shoot me an e-mail? I would like to converse with you more, i.e., if you don't mind.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.15.5

Re: It's a Fair Question

June 8 2011, 9:14 AM 

While our military veterans should be honored for their service, there is a time and place to do so. I really don't think the worship assembly is the most appropriate place for that, however. We should worship God and focus all our attention on giving Him the praise and honor in our assemblies. When we divide our assembly time to honoring human beings with cheers, standing ovations, and boisterous accolades, we shortchange God.

When I was organist for a Southern Baptist church, the assemblies closest to the 4th of July focused almost entirely on patriotic themes: having representatives of the military on hand with the color guard in procession, singing the National Anthem, "America," "America the Beautiful," "This Is My Country," "God Bless America," and other patriotic songs. I played the FIGHT songs for the major branches of the Armed Forces: "Marines Hymn," "Wild Blue Yonder" (Air Force), "The Army Goes Rolling Along," "Anchors Aweigh" (Navy), and "Semper Paratus" (Coast Guard). The crowd loved it. We may have even said the "Pledge of Allegiance." The soldiers and flag were the shining lights of the hour, not God. Some megachurches go so far as to have huge extravaganzas that include indoor fireworks in their "worship assemblies." That's really not worship; that's a worldly performance.

If you're going to honor soldiers and the flag, honor them apart from the worship assembly. Don't cheat God.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.211.6

Re: It's a Fair Question

June 8 2011, 10:53 AM 

BTW, I have never served in the military. After I finished a fellowship in Chicago years ago, I almost joined the Air Force. I had sent in the paperwork, but on the morning that I was scheduled for a physical, I got an offer for a job in a lab and took that instead. It literally came at the last minute. I didn't have the physical and never took the "oath." However, you could say that I was an "almost-veteran." Does that count? If worship assemblies are going to take time away from worshipping God by honoring soldiers and the flag, maybe they should also "honor" us "almost-veterans" with half-salutes, half-stanzas of patriotic songs, whispered cheers, and bending (not standing) ovations. happy.gif

 
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R*
(no login)
98.81.111.145

Re: It's a Fair Question

June 16 2011, 6:48 AM 

"BTW, I have never served in the military. After I finished a fellowship in Chicago years ago, I almost joined the Air Force. I had sent in the paperwork, but on the morning that I was scheduled for a physical, I got an offer for a job in a lab and took that instead. It literally came at the last minute. I didn't have the physical and never took the "oath." However, you could say that I was an "almost-veteran." Does that count? If worship assemblies are going to take time away from worshipping God by honoring soldiers and the flag, maybe they should also "honor" us "almost-veterans" with half-salutes, half-stanzas of patriotic songs, whispered cheers, and bending (not standing) ovations."

**************************************************************

William Crump, your post was pathetic. Your "almost-veteran" statement makes me sick. Shame on you! I doubt you have spent very much time at VA hospitals. I have no respect for you at all.

_____________________

Shortened the line of asterisks


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Jun 17, 2011 12:22 AM


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.9.185

Re: It's a Fair Question

June 16 2011, 2:05 PM 

Well now. Shouldn't those of us who almost became veterans be given some kind of almost-credit? We can't be called "partial veterans," because we never formally served. We also can't be called "would-be veterans," because that means we wanted to be, or had thought about being, veterans, but had not taken steps to become them. So, "almost-veteran" best describes someone who almost became a veteran. It's only logical. You could say that I started out as a would-be veteran who became an almost-veteran. BTW, I have served in a VA hospital, but I was neither a would-be veteran nor an almost-veteran when I did. You may be interested to know that when I was there, the majority of the patients suffered from chronic lung disease (they were chronic smokers) or chronic liver disease (they were chronic alcoholics). You could rightly say those patients had brought their diseases down on their OWN heads, and they wanted the government to cover the costs.

NOW THAT IS REALLY PATHETIC. NOW THAT IS WHAT SHOULD MAKE YOU SICK.

 
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Jimmy Joe
(no login)
76.22.249.74

Re: It's a fair question

June 18 2011, 12:22 AM 

Dr. Crump,
Your lame attempt at humor failed miserably. As someone who continually promotes their superior intelligence, I thought you would know that no one could be an "almost veteran",want to be veteran","should have been veteran"or "wish I was a veteran". It's very simple. You're either a veteran or you're not. As you stated that you thought about joining the U.S. Air Force but changed your mind, could one that made such a decision be considered chicken or cowardly? That seems as logical as your assumptions. Your disdain for the military seems obvious by your posts. As a previous poster stated, I have no respect for you due to that disdain. Thankfully there are Americans who serve and die that you may have the freedom to worship, live and ridicule in any manner that you desire. Reply if you wish but I have nothing else to say on this matter.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.63.199

Re: It's a fair question

June 18 2011, 8:33 AM 

You, like Sonny, and others, are much too eager to jump to conclusions and point your dirty fingers. I have no "disdain" for the military as a whole. The "almost-veteran" bit was a satire on those who think that honoring the military in the worship assembly is some kind of holy rite, when the New Testament authorizes NOTHING of the sort. Control your worldly desires for accolades and honor the military APART from the worship assembly.

Here's a tip for you: Reserve YOUR disdain for those veterans, would-be veterans, almost-veterans, and non-veterans who smoke and drink themselves into medical oblivion that results in diseases that could prevented through self-control. Now I'm going to drop a real bomb. Have some disdain from this: While making our morning rounds at the VA hospital, we interns presented one alcoholic patient after another to the attending physician. I noticed that the attending's facial expression suggested utter DISDAIN and contempt. As he scowled, he finally muttered something with an expletive to the effect of, "All these damn drunks...let 'em all DIE!" Oooooh, such a harsh sentiment for a doctor!

I would think that veterans and others who smoke and drink themselves into illness put their own "pleasures" above the safety and welfare of the country and families they defend. THEY are the cowards. THEY are to be disdained. THEY are pathetic.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.13.113

Re: It's a fair question

June 18 2011, 11:07 AM 

Jimmy Joe, my boy, I think I know what your problem is. You lack imagination, but that's nothing to be ashamed of, nor do you need to get bent out of shape over that failing. I can imagine that YOU wanted to be the first to come up with the term "almost-veteran," but you can't be first at everything, can you? Now you just need to accept that and curb your childish anger, son. Some day, you actually might come up with something catchy and witty, too. Maybe, maybe not. And I also imagine that, after this post, you just might have something more to say on this matter. But I certainly won't hold my breath. wink.gif

 
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Jimmy Joe
(no login)
76.22.249.74

Re: It's a fair question

June 20 2011, 4:12 PM 

Hey Doc, Take your super inflated ego and go fish in another pond. I'm not biting.

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Obeying Leaders, Communion and Unity, and Singing Happy Birthday

June 8 2011, 11:25 PM 

Brother Cruz, how does your website fit in with complying with the command in Hebrews 13:17 to obey your leaders? How do you justify disobeying and disrespecting your elders at Madison with this site? Also, do you take the Lord's Supper at Madison, because if you do and there is division between you and members there then you are in danger of eating and drinking damnation to your soul per 1 Corinthians 11:17-34, as there is to be no divisions as you eat and drink of the bread and cup to honor Christ.

Also, Brother Crump, the Bible speaks of honoring people and not just God, such as Philippians 2:25-30 where Paul says to honor men like Epaphroditus. With this in mind, what about singing happy birthday to a member before a Bible class or at the end of worship? Tonight our congregation sang happy birthday to one of our elders before Bible class. Is that not o.k.?

-Sonny

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.62.129

Re: Obeying Leaders, Communion and Unity, and Singing Happy Birthday

June 9 2011, 12:39 AM 

The issue is NOT whether we should honor people. The issue is whether we should cheat God by honoring people DURING the worship assembly itself. Is that so difficult to understand? As I said before, there is a place and time for honoring people; the worship assembly is NOT that time. Save secular honors for times other than the worship assembly. Likewise, the worship assembly and Bible study are NOT the proper settings for singing "Happy Birthday" or focusing on other worldly affairs. If you're going to do that anyway, why not discuss someone's new car or a raise s/he got at work? Why not just skip the worship assembly and Bible study altogether, if people are so bent on contaminating them with all manner of worldly affairs?


 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Still waiting...

June 9 2011, 1:59 PM 

on brother Cruz to respond.

Brother Crump, thank you for responding. A follow-up question: Is it then o.k. for us to sing happy birthday as we do on occasional Sunday's at my congregation after the closing prayer?

Also, since you believe it is wrong during an assembly to honor someone other than God, such as a veteran or one's birthday, is it also wrong for a preacher to acknowledge a couple's anniversary? Our preacher recently acknowledged a couple in our congregation who has been married 60 years.

Some might say we are honoring God in the assembly when we honor marriages, military, and people period, whether it be birthdays, baptisms, teachers and workers in the church, etc. Worship certainly addresses our dualism between assembly and daily living.

-Sonny

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.203.134

Re: Still waiting...

June 9 2011, 4:41 PM 

Why not wait until you're completely away from the assembly to conduct worldly affairs, such as honoring anniversaries, soldiers, birthdays, those who got promotions at work, lamenting with those who got fired, making much ado about the number of puppies your Rottweiler had, and other, similar issues of non-spiritual, worldly interest?

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

You Have Sinned

June 20 2011, 1:49 AM 

Donnie, it is a farce for you to say "There is no sin in MARKING THEM who "cause DIVISIONS among you."

YES, Donnie, there is sin in the WAY you do/did it! If you believe in what you say, then the Lord INSTRUCTED you HOW to mark them who cause division. NOT in front of the world and the ungodly. You were instructed to keep it in front of the church and the saints. YOU FAILED!!!

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

The Song Remains the Same

June 8 2011, 10:39 AM 

Same ole Donnie, just a different day. Jimmy Joe asks why Donnie sat while a service member was being honored and Donnie takes the chance, not to apologize, but to give his map of his changes for Madison. No Donnie....."My bad, OK?" is not an apology. Then you launch into an excuse of why you thought you were distracted. Instead of an apology you gave your usually satanic sermon of what is wrong with Madison, and what is needed to right the wrongs of yesterday. You got your prod in there for me too. Bravo. Get rid of the praise team and sell the microphones. You just don't seem like a very pleasant man to be around. You, Ken, and Bill do well together.....just not for the Lord's work.

Oh, by the way Donnie, no excuse would work for you sitting while the service member is being honored. NONE. If you see everyone else standing and you remain sitting in honor of the service member, there is no excuse viable. Your excuse doesn't give you the right to claim that you love your country.
It is pathetic.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Nice Touch

June 8 2011, 10:53 AM 

Bill,
To recognize our service members isn't shortchanging God.
Paul boasted only in Christ....never himself. A Christian being honored for his duty to GOD and country.....gives the credit BACK to God (HENCE 'duty to GOD and country'). Every church should be proud that the Christian man or woman who serves their country is honoring GOD FIRST.
You and Donnie are alike.....you took the opportunity to spill your doom and gloom message by going outside the realms of the original thoughts of the author. He speaks about honoring service members....you go off on a tangent about fireworks in other churches. Donne takes the opportunity to talk about the great fall of 2001.
Nice touch.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.12.109

Don't Cheat God

June 8 2011, 4:14 PM 

I don't think God would appreciate our sharing the time we worship and praise Him in the asssembly with honoring and praising our service people. Reserve the assembly for giving ALL worship to God; don't split the honor between God and the service people in the assembly. Honor the latter in a secular meeting apart from the worship assembly. Don't cheat God.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Duh huh???

June 8 2011, 2:29 PM 

I must ask....what is an "almost-veteran?"


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.12.109

Figure It Out

June 8 2011, 4:51 PM 

"Almost-veteran" was deliberately placed in quotation marks. The winking face says that Dave should have enough sense to figure out what that means. wink.gif

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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