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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.48

Sorry Sonny!

June 8 2011, 11:47 PM 

Sorry that elders must be certified by their OWN HOLY SPIRIT: the test is that they have taught that WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT so you never use violence on godly Bible students or Disciples of Christ. You gun shoots backward:

[linked image]

You never follow those who themselves do not know or know that the LOGOS or Word is something you SPEAQK and the CENI is what Jesus commanded to be taught.

You never follow a multitude to do evil: you never follow those who could care less about what Christ commanded in the Prophets and Apostles. You never follow any joker who thinks that A School of the Word is a "Theater for holy entertainment."


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.39

Clapping

June 9 2011, 3:27 PM 

Upsetting your comfort zones to impose music: boiling frogs

http://www.piney.com/Lynn.Review.html

Hand clapping began as a way to mock the looser! The word CLAPP and VOMIT derive from the same concept. The Alarm outlawed for the synagogue (church) included vocal or instrumental rejoicing, clapping or driving a nail into the trusting male.

In another thread we have noted that clapping or applause is one of the ways for the Scribes and Pharisees (speakers, singers, Players) to keep people from hearing the Word: the opposite is to hear the Word of God in order to learn.

I have heard lots of stuff the last couple of days: today those fed too much coffee hear White Christmas because they were told what they were hearing. Another experiment had a woman actually feeling a soft touch on a fake hand. The human spirit is easily deceived: that is why the written text was always the test of honesty. The direct command for the synagogue/church is to PREACH the word by READING the Word. If you must sing the resource is "that which is WRITTEN for our learning." Never believe what you hear in a sermon after you have been set up by any kind of mental anxiety which clapping creates--the startle reflex never goes away if you keep exercising it.

Reverence and Godly fear is the ATMOSPHERE in Habakkuk 22 and Hebrews 12: if you refuse you should remember that "God is a consuming fire."

You worship whatever you give your attention to (the only worship wsord). If people work really hard to direct your fragile spirit away from Christ and HIS commanded word you can be certain that they have an UNholy spirit: I could be kind and say that they are terminally ignorant but I don't believe it.

Hand Clapping, women edging in, and singing the songs of the limpy-wristy-clappy-singers were deliberately introduced to UPSET THE COMFORT ZONE. Never mind that God hates those who upset other people's comfort zone. Church is about learning the Word and being Comforted by the Word--that's all.

While the Oak Hills elders were hoodwinked by a woman, the material was probably collected by Lynn Anderson who tells you how to DELIBERATELY navigate the winds of change He is blowing. And, when the leaders in Ephesians 4 are to PREVENT the blowing winds.

Lynn Anderson etal: While WE want to be considerate of feelings and comfort zones, WE should be much more interested in being obedient to God and considering what He desires. Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ. Gal.1:10. Rather than asking what kind of worship we are comfortable with, each of us should be asking what kind of worship is pleasing to God.

I want to be kind and say all of the musical discorders of the rest Jesus died to give us, I have to believe that anyone who would divide the elders and congregation and drive off half of them to get HIS COMFORT ZONE stroked is beyond redemption. They might be evil and ignorant at the same time.

The command from the Wilderness onward was to

PREACH the word by READING the Word.


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Donnie's Response to Sonny: "Obeying Leaders, Communion and Unity..."

June 9 2011, 5:21 PM 


FROM: Sonny (no login) 99.186.93.107
SUBJECT: Obeying Leaders, Communion and Unity, and Singing Happy Birthday
WHEN: June 8 2011, 11:25 PM


Brother Cruz, how does your website fit in with complying with the command in Hebrews 13:17 to obey your leaders? How do you justify disobeying and disrespecting your elders at Madison with this site? Also, do you take the Lord's Supper at Madison, because if you do and there is division between you and members there then you are in danger of eating and drinking damnation to your soul per 1 Corinthians 11:17-34, as there is to be no divisions as you eat and drink of the bread and cup to honor Christ.


==========================================

Sonny,

Heb. 13:17 covers a lot of ground. Obeying "them that have the rule over you" implies that there is a command to be obeyed. Maybe you know what that command is; I do not. Besides, obedience does not extend to anything which is wrong in itself, or which would be a violation of conscience.

On the part of those "that have the rule over you," there is accountability involved -- "for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account." While it is true that the elders deserve "double honor," that, too, is contingent upon:

(1) That they "rule well,"
(2) That they (especially) "labor in the word and doctrine" [cf. I Tim. 5:17];
(3) That they "hold fast the faithful word as [they] have been taught [Titus 1:9];
(4) That they are qualified to TEACH that which they have been taught [cf. I Tim. 3:2].

I have already brought up the phone conversation I had [while the troublesome "transformation" of the congregation was in progress] with the elder who acknowledged that "change" was needed, beginning with the "worship service" and its "worship leader." That was a cordial conversation. There was no disrespect there.

I have already mentioned the division in the eldership at the outset. And speaking of the qualifications of elders, their responsibility and accountability, was the "problem" initiated by Donnie? I think NOT!!! "Division" is an ugly word especially when it occurs in the body of Christ. God detests it ... still, even when the "majority rule" is applied in dealing with controversial matters. Why? Because, as in this case, the other elders who were aware of potential adverse effects, by implementing Rick Warren's "culture-driven SCHEME for growing the church," were unwilling to compromise the truth, the doctrine, they had learned. Their only recourse, in order to preserve "the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace," was to have no part in the Warren SCHEME.

I'm bringing up the subject of "division" because of the wrong blame-game strategy of those who are opposed to ConcernedMembers and its objectives. Are you listening or taking notes, David Fields? That's where the division started. It is clearly explained above.

By the way, I did meet with some of the remaining elders a couple of [convenient] times. What was the issue and how was it resolved? It was agreed that the owners of this site [via Donnie] make an indication on the webpage to ensure that the expression "concerned members of Madison" is not to be confused with "Madison Church of Christ" itself. We obliged as you can see on this page:
"This web site is not part of or approved by the Madison Church of Christ"
Do you still not see and understand and accept it, David Fields? [I seriously doubt that you do, Dave, unless you have a very open mind.]

With regard to my partaking of the Lord's Supper, just refer to that "division" I explained above. Along with that, how the division between: (a) the "traditional" group and (b) the "contemporary" group ensued. I did not do it. I did not cause it. What's necessary for me is to FOCUS on nothing else but the sacrifice and death of my Savior. I may explain, however, that I try my best not to lose that focus when the Communion "messenger" delivers a message with earthly stories that deflect from the purpose of the observance or when the female soloist is a distraction when she performs while the congregation is in silence. (Oh, boy, how Ken Sublett accurately explains the effects of musical idolatry.)

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Mistaken on Communion and Worship

June 9 2011, 6:26 PM 

Brother Cruz,

You are mistaken about the Lord's Supper in First Corinthians 11 and worship in general. Paul did not say that communion is just about thinking on Jesus but also about unity with those with whom we are partaking. In the context, to examine oneself is specifically examining those relationships that are not unified. For the Corinthians, there were divisions including over spiritual gifts (speaking in tongues) and pride, and matters such as rich versus poor. Paul instructs that communion is not just about the individual with Christ but also about the church with one another.

Furthermore, we can see this principle taught concerning worship period. An example is Jesus saying to leave the gift at the altar and first be reconciled to our brother. Peter mentions how a lack of respect towards one's wife can hinder their prayers. Again, there is the communion example, and we could probably list more, but it should not be necessary.

I could be wrong brother, but it appears that you are worshiping at a congregation with brothers and sisters, some of which, you have not forgiven and are consistently in a habit of faultfinding. You are at the assembly to critique, find fault, and share with believers and unbelievers on this site as much as you are there to worship and be involved in the ministries of the congregation and walking in unity.

Finally, you are disregarding Hebrews 13:17 by claiming that you do not understand a specific command. It is a general overarching instruction, principle and attitude that the flock is to have toward her leaders. So, are you disregarding this teaching or not?

-Sonny

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Let's see about who's mistaken

June 10 2011, 12:21 AM 

These are great issues for discussion. This space is reserved for my response as time will allow it. To others who would like to comment on the issues thus far, please respond only to any of the messages already posted earlier--but not to this one. Thanks!!!

 
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JimmyJoe
(no login)
76.22.249.74

Sorry about that

June 10 2011, 12:17 AM 

Donnie, I didn't intend for this thread to go off on a tagent. I thought I was just asking a simple question and would receive a simple answer to quench my curiosity. However, Dr. Crump did bring up some things that intrested me. First was the idea that one could cheat God. I believe one could deny God but as God is omnipotent and the Creator one could not cheat God. I find Dr. Crump very conservative on most occasions but very liberal in his belief in the seperation of church and state. I do find amusing him being an "almost veteran". One of my best friends is a doctor and I thought about studying medicine at one time so I guess I could be an "almost doctor" and perform "almost operations" (satire). After perusing this site for the last few years, I have to admit to just scanning Mr. Sublett's post and then continuing to the next post. I have come to the conclusion that he is so far in left field that the foul pole doesn't even come into play or I'm not going to live long enough to decipher his ramblings.

On a serious note, if you are attending the one combined service at Madison this Sunday maybe we could sit together for the meal while they burn the debt. The internet is so informal maybe by conversing in person we could get to know each other better.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Don't Be--That's What's Beneficial to Posters

June 10 2011, 12:46 AM 

It is really true that no two individuals are alike in word and in deed. However, that is not to be confused with the message from Scripture about being "of one mind" and "in one spirit." There are those of us who are simple-minded, and those too deep and scholarly.

You know where the "critic" sits. LOL. So, would you "meet me up there" this Sunday? Maybe, after the occasion [the day after], you'll have something to convey here to those who adamantly judge me as "the sinner," "not worthy of being a brother in Christ," etc., that I am really a nice person. [Nod!!!]

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

You Know....

June 10 2011, 8:55 AM 

Donnie, it isn't any person that says you aren't 'worthy' of being a brother in Christ, but the very Word of God that speaks such. This site, conernedmembers is in direct violation of the way you handle problems WITHIN the church. 1 Timothy 5, and 1 Cor. 6
Do the right thing with this site, repent, and the Lord will forgive.
Donnie, when you were looking for a loophole in the Scriptures (saying that 1 Cor. 6 refers only to a brother taking another brother to civil court), I knew that you weren't looking for the Truth, but only to abuse Scripture to further your sinful journey.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: You Know....

June 10 2011, 6:04 PM 

Dave,

Aren't you happy with the thread you initiated concerning ConcernedMembers? You've been given the opportunity to condemn the site with all your might -- but, of course, to no avail because you're the one who is going against the grain. References to ConcernedMembers and your hunger for judging anyone who opposes your opinion with a "hey, you, sinner, repent" ... do not belong here, but should be directed to that "special" thread.

So, let's get back to the discussion without your self-righteous expletives.


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Jun 10, 2011 6:06 PM


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Mistaken on Communion and Worship

June 11 2011, 7:13 AM 

Sonny,

I reviewed your initial post related to "obeying leaders and communion." I counted the number of references to me personally. The words "you" and "your" occurred this many times in the short paragraph:

         ...does your website fit in...
         ...to obey your leaders?
         ...you justify disobeying...[your elders at Madison]...
         ...[you justify] disrepecting...your elders at Madison...
         ...do you take the Lord's Supper at Madison...
         ...because if you do....
         ...division between you and members...
         ...you are in danger of eating and drinking...
         ...damnation to your soul...
         ...no division as you eat and drink...

It appears, Sonny, that Dave has mentored you somewhat with your references to this website and me. Your 3rd paragraph reflects that mentoring. But considering your usually kinder and gentler posts in the past, it's fine with me this time. At least you readily admit that you "could be wrong."

With respect to 1 Corinthians 11, I will have to disagree with your notion that there's more to the observance of the Lord's Supper than "DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME."

There's that problem among the progressives/liberals in interpreting the chapter. The 11th chapter, yes, speaks of different things -- you can read that over and over again and make a long list of subject matters. But the portion that deals with the Lord's Supper only is precisely instructed in verses 23-29. In fact, verse 20 says that in regard to all these other things extraneous to and apart from "discerning the Lord's body" -- "... this is not to eat the Lord's supper."

The new "trend" with liberalism is extending or expanding God's design and purpose of observing the Lord's Supper. How much farther can a church go with combining the Lord's Supper with a "fellowship meal" of barbecue, chips and soda? Besides, are you aware that it will take a long, long assembly period to account for and settle all the differences among members -- even worse in a mega congregation -- prior to the Communion?

No, it is not the time to examine relationships, differences in spiritual gifts, being rich or poor, during the commemoration of the Lord's death. Otherwise, with those thoughts, discerning the Lord's body becomes distorted and obstructed.

In regard to "Donnie," I believe that the assembly of NT saints is designed to be a school of the Word in order to "teach and admonish" one another ("let the word of Christ dwell in you richly"), as well as to observe the Lord's Supper "in remembrance of me," the Lord says. True, I bring up the leadership issue when it is wrong or misguided or when it is not accordance with God's will. But I have nothing against the members, therefore, there is nothing to forgive. I am comfortable with "examining myself" and "discerning the Lord's body" -- doing so with other members in the gathering.

In regard to Hebrews 13:17, I am not disregarding the teaching in the passage. You must not have understood the contingencies that I had listed from Scripture, relative to elders being qualified and being worthy of double honor. You assume that nothing can go wrong with a leadership or that its decisions are always for the good of the fold it tries to lead. (Would you take time to re-read my original response to your original question?) You were talking about me (Donnie) and obeying my (Donnie's) leaders. I do not recall the elders giving me specific commandments to be obeyed. But if you're referring to the warning from CM to uninfiltrated, peaceful congregations to "beware of the change agents" and not follow their culture-driven SCHEMES [as it happened in Madison], you are wrongfully accusing me and this website. It was the wrong decision on the part of the "divided" eldership which caused division in the congregation. You cannot blame me or the congregation, for that matter, because the division occurred. It's bad, sad and unfortunate that it occurred. In reality, it's the congregation that deserves to hear from those that caused the division.

 
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Sonny
(no login)
99.186.93.107

Re: Mistaken on Communion and Worship

June 11 2011, 6:54 PM 

Brother Cruz,

I will simply drop the matter. Yes, I do admit I could be wrong, as I mentioned earlier and you referenced above. I wish you and Brother Crump would say the same.

-Sonny

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Now There is Something That Isn't Likely to Happen

June 12 2011, 10:51 AM 

Brother Sonny....per your last statement and thought......just don't hold your breath in hoping that those two will ever think such, much less ever admit to wrong.

That is the WHOLE premise of this site. Before you can contemplate creating such a monster like this (concernedmembers) you have to get rid of your conscience and forget you have a soul.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Dave's Mentoring Skills

June 13 2011, 3:13 AM 

Dave,

You indicated that ConcernedMembers is such a monster. There are good monsters, after all. Thanks for the compliment.

Your post reminds me of your being the "Garden of Eden" story serpent. Be careful, Dave. Sonny is a very quick and capable learner. Here's your deception -- "I, Dave, have never been wrong; I cannot admit to being wrong. Follow me."

So, when can you start speaking for yourself?

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

You Cease to Amaze

June 19 2011, 9:58 PM 

Donnie,
That sounds a bit narcissistic....telling someone else to admit to wrong when you have failed miserably.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

The Truth Will Prevail

June 19 2011, 11:01 PM 

Marking those (the Change Agents) WHO are polluting the church with dogmas and creeds and SCHEMES acquired from their denominational neighbors may or may not fail miserably. However, God's truth teaches it.

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

God's Truth

June 19 2011, 11:17 PM 

God's Truth tells you NOT to bring your grievances in front of the ungodly. You have gone AGAINST God's Truth.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: God's Truth

June 20 2011, 12:41 AM 

Dave,

Until you comprehend the scheme of the change agents to transform the church to denominationalism, you will not know the meaning of "your grievances."

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Sin is Sin is Sin is Sin is.......

June 20 2011, 12:49 AM 

I know the meaning of sin. This site is sinful. If you had wanted to warn other churches of anything.....anything....then why did you bring it here for everyone, including those outside the church to view and see?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Comprehension Is Comprehension

June 20 2011, 1:07 AM 

Dave,

You still do not comprehend how dangerous and damaging the change agents are to the church of Christ Jesus. So, do NOT expect "the ungodly" to understand what you DO NOT understand yourself.

Your refusal to admit that there is a problem with the change agents intruding upon and interfering with the affairs of local congregations -- DOES NOT help your fallacious premise.



 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Repentance = Forgiveness

June 20 2011, 1:15 AM 

You refuse to admit your wrong and sin.....without repentance there is no forgiveness.

 
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This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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