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R*
(no login)
98.81.113.126

Re: Great Examples of Clapping in the "WORSHIP Assembly"

July 11 2011, 1:44 PM 

This is what hand clapping means today.



hand clapping

noun
a demonstration of approval by clapping the hands together [syn: applause]

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.247.188

Re: Great Examples of Clapping in the "WORSHIP Assembly"

July 11 2011, 5:41 PM 

Applause/clapping is far more frequently used in the secular world to express approval, especially after a performance by one or more entertainers, at sporting events, at concerts, for political candidates, or similar events where one or more people is/are exalted as worthy of attention, praise, and accolades.

The only evidence of clapping mentioned in the Bible for ANY reason is found in the Old Testament. The words "clap," "claps," "clapped," "clapping," "applause," and "accolades" are not found anywhere in the New Testament (KJV). Suffice it to say that the early Christians did NOT express their praise to God in their assemblies with boisterous clapping.

Therefore, shall we carry our secular habits into the worship assembly and turn the assembly into something akin to a sports arena or a rock concert? Let's not bring the ways of the world into the assembly.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Romans 12:2 KJV).

 
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Dave
(no login)
69.59.112.185

Is It a True Church of Christ Practice and Tradition?

July 10 2011, 10:17 PM 

In another words....."You like what you have always liked, and don't prefer what others like."

It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether it is wrong or right, or if it is in line with the Scriptures or not.

What you consider to be "good enough" may not be so for someone else.

Maybe someone wants to start a NEW tradition? No place for that for that...is there?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.34

What is a disciple

July 10 2011, 11:15 PM 

I met a sad, sad man at the institute!

He told me he was an astronaut so I asked him to define an astronaut.
He got mad and said I don't need to know how to define it: I am an astronaut.

Yes, but you told me that you were Napoleon last week.
Well, that was then but this is now.

He also said that he was a Christian but didn't know what it meant.
Said he was a member of the church but couldn't explain the meaning of "church."

I doubt that he cold tell us the meaning of Is Is.

 
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R*
(no login)
98.81.113.126

Re: How To Make Church Work

July 11 2011, 12:08 PM 


Matthew 22:35-40
New King James Version (NKJV)

35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.[b] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.209.118

Re: How To Make Church Work

July 11 2011, 1:33 PM 

If the commandment given in Matt. 22:35-40 had been the only commandment Jesus ever gave, it might be much easier for people to accept. But Jesus gave other commandments which also MUST be obeyed or there cannot be any salvation; Jesus Himself said so. There's where people go off on tangents and foul up the waters with their own personal "interpretations" of the New Testament. In matters of doctrine, stick with what is written in the New Testament. It sounds very simple, and it is; but people turn it into a mountain of difficulty.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Not So Fast....

July 11 2011, 4:47 PM 

Bill Crump wants to make the "middle ground" sound catastrophic and dispiteful. That is what many do when they find some young worship leader not wanting to lead "Amazing Grace' every Sunday. So he parallels "middle ground" with salvation issues, such as not being baptized, and an unapproved Lord's supper.

"Middle ground" can be praise teams that lead the worship instead of a single worship leader. Either will work fine. It could be a more charismatic worship leader who promote lifting of holy hands, uttering amens outloud, and clapping. Some congregations have a service that has a blend/mixure of all components, including praise teams and older songs.
Some congregations have distinct services: one for the traditional minded, one for the contemporary minded.
Two services that bring groups of people with two different preferences to worship, yet both sides still worshiping God and His Son.
Perfection amid a great "middle ground."

 
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R*
(no login)
98.81.111.186

Re: Not So Fast....

July 11 2011, 6:33 PM 

The doctor is a promoter of the "strawman" distraction.

 
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R*
(no login)
98.81.111.186

Re: Not So Fast....

July 11 2011, 7:02 PM 

Many Churches have no problems with traditional and contemporary services. Of course they have respect for each other and they know it is a preference.








 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.31

God is God

July 11 2011, 8:04 PM 

You get NO preferences: Paul outlawed doubtful disputations which are private opinions or preferences (Rom 14)

In Romans 15 Paul affirmed the synagogue or church of Christ from the wilderness onward which prohibited instruments.

The only reason anyone has for calling people out of bed and rest is to the Ekklesia or 'synagogue' in Paul's words. The ekklesia is defined as for PREACHING the Word by READING the Word.

Peter made that the Prophets by Christ and the prophecies made more perfect by Jesus and supernaturally validated to the Apostles: church is built upon the foundation of Prophets and Apostles. You, O mortal, have absolutely no words or legalistic acts to AID Jesus Christ as the ONLY Teacher when the elders teach that which has been taught.

If you cannot define ekklesia, Christian and Disciple by now, God HAS turned you over to your own preference.

Work on this:

What is a synagogue?
What is a Disciple?
What do disciples do when they assemble THEMSELVES.

What would it take to move beyond nursery ditties and hand clapping?

Sorry, but you don't know a single preacher who knows WHAT is a school of Christ or WHAT is a disciple. ISN'T that something of Biblical Proportions right before your flighting eyes and ears.

 
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R*
(no login)
98.81.111.186

Re: Not So Fast....

July 11 2011, 8:10 PM 


The old swicharoo by the doctor.




[linked image]

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.13.181

Re: Not So Fast....

July 11 2011, 11:11 PM 

I remember a time at FaithSite, when a conservative poster was getting the best of an obnoxious, liberal woman in an argument. When the woman ran out of steam and couldn't take it anymore, she posted a picture of a jackass to smear the conservative.

I see that R* can't take it anymore, so he posts asinine pictures in lieu of an "argument." Way to go, R*! wink.gif

 
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R*
(no login)
98.81.111.186

Re: Not So Fast....

July 12 2011, 12:49 AM 

The doctor should not allow R* to get under his skin. Have I really posted anything asinine? Donnie, just let me know if you think I'm out of line. Unlike the doctor I will honor your request.

 
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Donnie
(no login)
99.177.249.211

Re: Not So Fast....

July 12 2011, 2:13 AM 

It isn't necessary, R*, but we've [including myself] pasted different types of images to convey our "feelings" [I would guess].
wink.gif
I even like Dr. Crump's winking image -- magnified.

Moderators here are considerate and forgiving. Ya know.

Thanks for asking.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.8.89

Re: Not So Fast....

July 12 2011, 10:03 AM 

Actually, the liberal woman posted the jackass picture because she allowed her conservative opponent to get under her skin. Likewise, R* allowed Dr. Crump to get under HIS skin, so he hurried to post a straw man image. Then when Dr. Crump dismissed that image as asinine, R* got even more upset and cried to the moderator. Oh, R*, you must develop some thick skin around here! wink.gif

 
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R*
(no login)
98.81.94.149

Re: Not So Fast....

July 12 2011, 1:11 PM 

Well, once again the spin doctor is doing what he does best. I hope your asinine rash gets better soon! happy.gif

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.13.181

Think Again

July 11 2011, 11:04 PM 

C seemed to imply that "middle ground" was some way to get eveyone together in one assembly and ditch the separate assemblies that catered to people's different preferences. C implied that having different types of services only fostered the division of the membership. Having separate services may satisfy people's preferences and be called "middle ground," but it does not foster unity among the total membership. In that case, "middle ground" serves no real purpose and is a misnomer.

To get everyone into one assembly, there would have to be compromises, which eventually end up tweaking biblical doctrine in the LONG RUN to make it "work." Notice I said in the LONG RUN. Compromise may begin with superfical elements like how the praise team or worship leader functions (or if there are even such participants), but eventually, given time, compromise WILL work its way into biblical doctrine. Don't be blind, deaf, and naive and say that would never happen. It can happen and it does happen. You should know that. Compromise may work at the secular level, but not at the biblical level. You can't compromise the Word of God and still be a true "Christian."

BTW, the word is "despiteful," not "dispiteful." wink.gif

 
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C
(Login whyistayathome)
98.193.230.19

Middle ground

July 12 2011, 12:41 AM 

I am not saying for sure that there is middle ground. If it is doctrine that is being violated, why even stay? I have been bouncing around the Nashville area looking for a church, and I have been to some traditional services that would show clappers the door after one clap. I have seen many ex-madison members at these churches. If christian doctrine is being violated, it is being done so by the elders, deacons, preacher, and everyone else in that service. So if it is like that, the whole church is corrupt and time is being wasted trying to save something that is already gone.

But, as I said, I still have grander issues in my faith than to clap or not to clap, but I promise you if I ever decide on a church it will be one that I don't have major theological issues with. I don't have really any issues at all other than the fact that it was done one way for many years, and a majority of the church didn't want change, and out of respect for each other the change should not have happened. They should have started their own Church of Christ on their own terms.

The change agents seem to have just hung onto the traditionalist long enough to pay the major debt off. I bet now is when the take over begins because they don't need the money as bad anymore.


 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Middle ground

July 12 2011, 1:52 AM 

Amen! Amen! Amen!

It's never been a mystery that the change agents' motive to "grow the church" numerically and for the invaded congregation to be completely transformed (converted) into Community Church-ism, is to use the culture-driven methodology that involves:

(a) gradualism ("boiling the frog" approach)
(b) incrementalism (a little more of this...next...)
(c) subtlety (gimmicks)
(d) compromise (the "truth" palatable to anyone)
(e) entertainment (targeting the "youth"--"future of the church")
(f) accommodation (Vision 2000 at Madison)
(g) availability of [false] teachers (in sheep's clothing)
(h) conflict resolution preparedness (did not work at Madison)
(i) ... just to name a few.

Right on, brother!!!




    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 99.177.249.211 on Jul 12, 2011 3:29 AM


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
67.142.130.22

This is the NACC hostile takeover

July 12 2011, 12:47 PM 

This whole radical sowing of discord is a congenital defect of the NACC.

There never was any "union" between the Disciples of Christ / Christian churches and The Churches of Christ. While a few men proposed a "merger" into a denomination in 1832 and shook hands on a SIGNED CONTRACT, the ink wasn't dry until the Disciples of Christ/Christian churches began to gloat and set about their historic denial of everything taught by churches of Christ.

In the first census in 1906 the Disciples CLAIMED the members of Churches of Christ: the census taker knew better and Lipscomb agreed that the Disciples could not CLAIM something that didn't belong to them.

Campbell laughed about the "hand shake" among a few men constituting a "joining."

The Christian churches began to sect out of the Disciples in 1927 and formed the NACC as a full-blown denomination although they deny it. They immediately started to slice off preachers with "unity meetings." They were finally delisted from the Disciples after the 1968 restructure and the next count in 1971. From that time agents of the NACC have pushed the concept of UNITY but coming prepared with their white paper filled with black lies about all of the Bible and recorded history.

They slicked out a few preachers (Rick Atchley, Rubel Shelly etal) to RESTRUCTURE all churches of Christ under the MASK of unity. In fact, they deliberety sowed discord and have managed to pick up a few crumbs for their wicked effort.

You have to conclude that almost no restoration preacher is educated to be blind to the story of the Old Testament and the division between the Civil-Military-Clergy complex and the Synagogue as school of the Word (only) which began in the Wilderness after Israel's fatal fall into musical idolatry of the Egyptian (etal) trinity.

Christ as the Rock in the wilderness knew that would happen and organized the synagogue which never changed until after Constantine.

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.





 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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