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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Why Church doesn't work

July 12 2011, 11:29 AM 

I've heard that, on the average, the older, more traditional church members tend to contribute far more financially to the church than do the progressives. I'm glad that fact was brought up again in this thread. So the trend is for the progressives to launch huge "building" programs (gymnasiums; "worship centers" with the look and feel of performing arts centers with state-of-the-art audio, lighting, and video technologies; food courts; so-called "family life centers," etc.), get the church in whopping debt, wait for the oldsters to bail them out, then toss the oldsters aside when the debt has been paid. That's called exploitation, and it is abominable.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Older members are owners

July 12 2011, 1:40 PM 

It is true they plan to do an end run around the older members (Jubilee) and build on the ashes with younger people.

First, it is true, that there cannot be a more vile, dishonest person in the world. Charles Spurgeon searched for a word to define such a person but could not find one. He worried about entertaining goats rather than feeding sheep.

Most of these churches are in financial trouble because of CIVIC PRIDE wanting the longest spire in the city: they do that in New Guenna (sp) with gourds.

The truly force the owners to cast themselves out of their own synagogue: they had a contract and in most churches BY LAWS which prevented Madoffs from confiscating the property. The changelings lie, cheat and go to law and change the bylaws THEN they are legal.

They usually suffer lots and have to up the entertainment content to attract those already attending musical churches. Some have sugar daddies who keep their mistresses in new shoes.

Richland Hills once boasted of 6400 members: they began a frog boiling process when a spirit told Rick some secrets. They drove that down to about 4500 when the fired the deacons and hired some deaconesses. When they announced that they were going back on their promise not to add instruments (that was then but this is now) they went to about 3500 average. Just now are they back up to around 4500 by counting 2 "sister" congregations they founded on picking and grinning. So, they have never recovered.

Surprise, surprise: the younger generation is barely making it these days and you have to send out hit men to extort tithes and offerings: Madison promised that God might hurt you.

This is such an outburst of lying wonders that I think we are witnessing hostility on Biblical proportions. Maybe that's why God sent the vultures?

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(no login)

Give and Take

July 12 2011, 12:34 PM 

It is obviously that you have chosen your side. When you label others "change agents" you prove that. In your mind a "change agent" runs counterproductive to your traditionalist mindset. The "change agent" would not call you a traditionalist. As you use such a label as "change agent" for them, they are calling you a "legalist," because you don't care for any change at anytime, even if the change is not against the Scriptures.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Give and Take

July 12 2011, 3:58 PM 

OK, Dave, now that C does not agree with you (or you do not agree with him/her), are you going to do your "thing"? That is to say, is C "cursed"? Is C a "sinner"? Is C "wrong"? Must C now "repent" for disagreeing with you? Hmmm?

BTW, I haven't seen anything that C wrote to suggest s/he is against any change at anytime, even if the change is not against the Scriptures. I think Dave imagined that so he could begin to find a way to say C is "cursed, a sinner, wrong, and needs to repent." It always comes around to that, doesn't it, Dave? wink.gif

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

More on the "Change Agents"

July 13 2011, 4:37 AM 


I would give Jon a lot of credit for being a quick learner and open-minded. It appears that he now recognizes the presence of change agents in the brotherhood, and how they have infected once-peaceful congregations of the church of Christ Jesus. I'll do more research on the Change Movement, but from what I've gathered, the church of Christ is not one of the earlier victims of Community Church-ism.

Certain churches of Christ (esp. in Texas) have learned concepts and implemented practices FROM victimized denominational churches that became full-fledged Community Churches. We seldom hear in the CCM (Community Church Movement) circles of the concept of "song leading" or "song leader" who'd simply determine the pitch or the tune of the first line of the song and sit down and congregational singing goes on.

Now, the term "worship leader" has become the acquired and accepted, elevated and respected position in "corporate worship." He/she leads the congregants into God's "holy presence." And in performing other "church service" activities that may comprise 60% of the worship period. Not the "pastor" or minister who delivers a sermonette.

The "unity-in-diversity" concept should explain the "traditional" and "contemporary" designations in meeting the "preference" needs of members of a transforming church. Unity in diversity is a misnomer and deception.

So, are change agents (proponents of the CCM) operating only in the church of Christ? I think not. I would say that the Change Movement began earlier and is more prevalent in various denominational churches than in the church of Christ.

This comes from a non-church of Christ website:

Modern Change Agents Are The New Apostles Of Many Apostolic Ministers:

Baptist Pastor Rick Warren - According to the modern concept developed by Baptist Pastor Rick Warren, a "Change Agent" comes into a church and changes everything about it that stands in the way of growth. It is a subtle method of using certain men and women, teenagers, and whom ever else to change the church into a religious club where everyone is welcome and Bible standards of righteousness rejected. The role of a Change Agent is to begin a systematic restructure of the Church in doctrine, faith, practice, conduct, and order. If anyone stands in the way they must be eliminated from the Church. All hindrances to the change to be brought about must be removed. The Change Agent and colleagues must select new people who accept the changes and place change agents in positions of authority and power. The final out come of the Change Agents is a new Church that appeals to the masses where each person's talents and or alleged gifts are to be used in harmony with the plans of the Change Agents. What results is an apostate church. The Bible of the Change Agents is Rick Warren's book, "THE PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH." Warren has created a powerful New Age paradigm shift that is changing the way thousands of pastors and future pastors view Christianity and the Bible. The Change Agents develop new methods of merchandising the souls of men, women, teenagers, and children.

What apostate methods do the Change Agents use to alter a Church into the new pig-stye of fleshly corruption and demonic control?
Dave, know that "change agents" call themselves "change agents." They are proud of that label. It is synonymous with "liberals" or "progressives."

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(no login)

This Site is A Scab on Christianity

July 13 2011, 8:42 AM 

Donnie, you said "Dave, know that "change agents" call themselves "change agents." They are proud of that label. It is synonymous with "liberals" or "progressives.""

Logically speaking then, Donnie, you are saying that anyone labeled as a "change agent" is proud of that label?
That is not true. Donnie, even some of the change agents that YOU have labeled at Madison and other church of Christ members don't care for the label. The DO NOT call themselves change agents. It is a fact. You have told a lie.

Also, remember who was the biggest change agent of them all......Jesus Christ.
If you don't believe that then look in the NT and see what the Pharisees and Sadducees thought of Jesus. Do you think that Jesus Christ called Himself a change agent or whatever label they gave Him? He certainly didn't pay it any attention, just like most of the ones you and others label as change agents.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Was Jesus a Change Agent?

July 13 2011, 1:56 PM 

An old, worn-out argument the change agents have been hustling for ages has been, "Jesus was the ultimate change agent." The implication is that Jesus bucked God, did what He pleased, and started His own brand of "religion." That's what the change agents are doing today--thumbing their noses at the New Testament, doing as they please, and adopting denominational practices that are unbiblical yet more pleasing and palatable to the masses.

The change agents conveniently forget that Jesus followed God's plan from the beginning of time. At the right time, Jesus put the Mosaic Law away and instituted the Christian era, which will stand until the end of time.

The "change" that Jesus brought about was planned from the beginning. The "change" of the change agents is of their own selfish, abominable minds; it is definitely NOT of God.

It's ironic that Dave said the change agents don't like to be called "change agents," yet he quickly and proudly called Jesus the "biggest change agent of them all." That's quite an insult to Jesus.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

No, the Change Agents Are an "Infectious Disease"

July 13 2011, 10:02 PM 


Change agents at Madison? No, Rick Warren is the "CHANGE AGENT." Certain members/leaders were commissioned to actually visit Rick Warren's Saddleback Community Church in CA and report their findings. There were to learn the Warren culture-driven scheme to "grow the church." BTW, it's all in this manual: "The Purpose Driven Church," by Pastor Rick Warren. [We know the sad ending story -- Madison did not grow from 3000; instead, it dwindled down to half its size. Thanks to the change agents and their disciples!]

Those who initiated the Change Movement coined the expression "change agents" themselves as that was their MISSION -- to CHANGE!!! They certainly were proud of that self-descriptive designation. (Read again that article published in a non-church of Christ website.)

As to followers, disciples and proponents of the Change Movement and the change agents, they may not call themselves or like to be called "change agents," but they love to propound the "change we can believe in" [speaking of the Messiah in D.C.]. Perhaps, they prefer to be sowers of discord, transformers, etc.

Don't insult the Lord Jesus Christ. He changed the world. But he did not change, modify, transform, convert, restructure, reorganize, rebuild, revise, improvise the church He owns and established.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Time is short:the flailing is pitiful

July 13 2011, 10:51 PM 

Rev. 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Rev. 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev. 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

They are certainly delusional; can't read simple text.

[205d] being himself the offspring of Zeus and of the daughter of their deme's founder; such old wives' tales, and many more of the sort, Socrates,--these are the things he tells and trolls, while compelling us to be his audience.

When I heard this I said: Oh, you ridiculous Hippothales, do you compose and chant a triumph song on yourself, before you have won your victory?

It is not on myself, Socrates, he replied, that I either compose or chant it.
You think not, I said.
Then what is the truth of it? he asked.
Plato:[205e] Most certainly, I replied, it is you to whom these songs refer. For if you prevail on your favorite, and he is such as you describe, all that you have spoken and sung will be so much glory to you, and a veritable eulogy upon your triumph in having secured such a favorite as that: whereas if he eludes your grasp, the higher the terms of your eulogy of your favorite, the greater will seem to be the charms and virtues you have lost, and you will be ridiculed accordingly. Hence anyone who deals wisely in love-matters

History records that group singing was always to unite the TRIBE under the Alpha Male. Whatever you see going on in the name of musical worship everyone understands that Rick Atchley gets the glory because he was victorious over those who elected him tribal leader.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jul 13, 2011 11:11 PM

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(no login)

Nice Try!!!!

July 14 2011, 5:37 PM 

William spat out that "The implication is that Jesus bucked God, did what He pleased, and started His own brand of "religion."

No William, the implication is that Jesus bucked man and his traditions, did what pleased God, and instituted His Church, the Church that God is pleased with today.

Donnie, the only thing insulting is this site and how you guys labor on with its wickedness.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

You Can't Escape

July 14 2011, 8:32 PM 

Once again, it's ironic that Dave said the change agents don't like to be called "change agents," yet he quickly and proudly called Jesus the "biggest change agent of them all." That's quite an insult to Jesus.

You insulted Jesus, Dave, and you can't escape it. You should be very ashamed of yourself, but I don't think you ever could be. It looks like you need to apply your "cursed--wrong--sinner--repent" bit to yourself, boy. What goes around comes around.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Dave: Christ Is Among Them

July 15 2011, 3:49 AM 


The title of your earlier post, "This Site is A Scab on Christianity" (July 13 2011, 8:42 AM), is a typical reaction from you when you deny the fact that the change agents' schemes to transform and restructure the church are destructive. It really upsets you when "change agents" are identified as liberals and progressives, right? Why, when they label those of us who oppose their acquired beliefs from denominations as legalists or legalistic?

You said: "Also, remember who was the biggest change agent of them all......Jesus Christ."

Well, what I will remember is that you have positioned Christ as one among the change agents in this world. You know better; but maybe not. Christ established His own church. Change agents, on the other hand, seek to transform and restructure that which He built.

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(no login)

Whatever You Like....

July 15 2011, 12:21 PM 

You can call me a "change agent" or "boy."

.....or you can call me J......

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(no login)

Change Agent......You Say?

July 17 2011, 9:09 PM 

Donnie, you claimed "Change agents, on the other hand, seek to transform and restructure that which He built."

You wouldn't consider yourself a change agent? Do your traditions and style of worship look anything like the church that Jesus established and how they worshiped in the first century? Suit and ties, 1 hour and go home, four part harmony, etc. Also, when you say "restructure that which He built," tell me what part of the church looks the same as in the days when He started the Church?


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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Change Agent......You Say?

July 18 2011, 12:09 AM 


As much as the subject of "change agents" has been discussed for over a decade on this site ... and with you for a number of years now, you seem to still be unaware of the evil schemes of these antagonists. So, just to make my life a little easier, I am quoting the following from another thread. I don't mind repeating as it is said that repetition is key to learning. Here it is:

You are barking up the wrong tree. ...

You see, Dave, it's common knowledge that change agents are unwilling to start their own church(es) from scratch. Instead, they're the ones who operate within the Lord's church making all attempts, knowingly or unknowingly, to sow discord in the Lord's church.

The mission of the change agents is to transform the church that Christ established into a denomination. They are friends with the denominations; they would like the church of Christ to behave like denominational churches; they have acquired doctrines and beliefs from their denominational neighbors or invent their own:

  1. Restructuring church organization -- pyramidal eldership;
  2. New role of women -- women leading men in the church;
  3. Altering the meaning and purpose of baptism in the conversion process;
  4. Expanding the Lord's Supper as also a fellowship meal/brunch;
  5. Extending "church" fellowship with those outside of the church;
  6. Accepting membership from any denomination apart from the NT way of conversion;
  7. Ridiculing their Restoration heritage and rewriting its history;
  8. Emulating "worship style" and programming made for TV;
  9. Incorporating psychology and philosophy into church programs;
  10. Using denominational sources and materials in "Bible studies";
  11. Inviting denominational speakers and lectures to the congregation;
  12. Holding mixed services and gatherings with denominational groups;
  13. De-emphasizing pure biblical studies;
  14. Regressing from New Testament teachings to OT law and observances;
  15. Digressing from worship in spirit & truth to mechanical music;
  16. etc., etc., etc.
Now, Dave, just who is loyal to Christ and HIS CHURCH? Is it the liberals headed by change agents doing those things listed above (and more) -- sowing discord, insulting Christ, destroying the church He built, distorting the New Testament pattern?


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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Change Agent......You Say?

July 18 2011, 1:17 AM 

An old adage says the greatest trick that Satan ever pulled has been to convince the world he doesn't exist.

The change agents do the same. The greatest trick the change agents ever pulled has been to convince many in the Church that change agents and the Change Movement do not exist.

Donnie wrote to Dave: "As much as the subject of 'change agents' has been discussed for over a decade on this site ... and with you for a number of years now, you seem to still be unaware of the evil schemes of these antagonists."

Is Dave really "unaware" that change agents exist? Change agents bent on deliberately disrupting churches for the sake of "change" are certainly not about to point the finger at themselves. No wolf is about to reveal itself to the sheep and think there will be peace and harmony in the flock. Thus, change agents are covert; they play innocent and dumb: "'Change agent'--what is that, anyway? Are you sure you're not just making that up to scare us all? Hmmm?" "Surely no one would be that EVIL to cause such havoc in the Church--oh my, NO!" "Naw, just like there ain't no such things as dragons, there ain't no such things as change agents!"

Dave is "unaware" of the change agents? HUH!

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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