|Dr. Bill Crump|
Re: Utterly false
|July 21 2011, 11:29 PM |
So it looks like Dave has, shall we say, not spoken the truth and has fabricated stories about Ken and the Book of Enoch. Shame on you, Dave! YOU
are the one who needs to "Repent! Repent!"
The Doctor Said So
|July 22 2011, 9:29 AM |
I gather that "rocnar" (rancor) is unable to give a valid reason why Jude would quote from the Book of Enoch if the latter were not an inspired work. Yes, we are quite done here. Further arguments would be futile; in fact, most religious arguments are futile.
This is from about a year ago.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Re: The Doctor Said So
|July 22 2011, 2:36 PM |
As I said, most religious arguments are futile.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Re: You Need to Know What You Are Talking About....
|July 21 2011, 11:22 PM |
No, Dave, YOU need to know what YOU are talking about. I asked if Ken ever said that he followed the Book of Enoch in place of the Bible
. My exact words were, "Has Ken ever said that he follows that book in place of the Bible?"
I've never seen Ken say that he takes Enoch over the Bible. Yet Dave puts words in Ken's mouth. If Ken thinks that the Book of Enoch is "inspired," does that mean he ditches the entire Bible for Enoch? Of course not, and Dave knows it--or he should. Dave is just out to argue, cause trouble, and be his usual OBNOXIOUS
self. Shame and pity on poor Dave, who will say ANYTHING to smear those with whom he disagrees. Son, you've got to put your hate and animosity away.
Enoch is OUT!!!
|July 22 2011, 8:21 AM |
One minute it is inspired and the next minute it isn't.
Ken said "If I want to know what in heaven's name is Jude speaking about I am in the black unless I read the Book of Enoch which He directly quotes."
"Careful examination of the two passages reveals some significant differences. First, Jude refers to "thousands" of angels, but Enoch refers to "millions." Jude says that God will "convict" all of the ungodly, but Enoch says that they will be "destroyed." The rest of the two passages disagree in wording in minor ways. Therefore, it is inaccurate to conclude that Jude quoted Enoch. Since the book of Jude was written by Jude under the influence of God the Holy Spirit, we conclude that the book of Jude is truth. Therefore Enoch is wrong with regard to some facts.
The book of Enoch was never referred to by Jesus or any of the New Testament writers as scripture, and the book was not included in the New Testament by the apostles. It is commonly misunderstood that the content of the Bible evolved over time. But the New Testament clearly tells us that the apostles were identifying scripture as it was being written (1 Tim. 5:17-18; 2 Pet. 3:14-16). The New Testament books were being distributed by the apostles to the various churches to be read (Gal. 6:11; Col. 4:16; 1 Thess. 5:27; 2 Thess. 2:2; 3:14). By the time the apostles died, the New Testament had been written and its books were known. The Muratorian Fragment and several of the early fathers have left us a list of books that were identified as belonging to the New Testament. The book of Enoch was never included. Some books were challenged later but never with success."
"The Book of Enoch wasnt included in Scripture because it wasnt written by either Enoch of Genesis times and didnt appear until long after the events it describes. Also, theological errors led scholars to conclude that it wasnt an inspired writing. So, while there are many interesting explanations of traditional Jewish beliefs, the book should not be given the weight of Scripture.
There was an Enoch as well as a Lamech in both the lines of Seth and Cain, and Methushael and Methuselah were two different people, So yes, the references you cited are of six different people."
Ken, Enoch wasn't included as a book in the Bible for a good reason. If it wasn't accurate enough to be included as Inspired works then why use it at all?
One more examination for you Ken, about Enoch. Look at this one closely.
"Judes quote is not the only quote in the Bible from a non-biblical source. The Apostle Paul quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that does not mean we should give any additional authority to Epimenides writings. The same is true with Jude, verse 14. Jude quoting from the book of Enoch in Jude verse 9 does not indicate the entire book is inspired, OR EVEN TRUE. All it means is that particular verse is true. It is interesting to note that no scholars believe the Book of Enoch to have truly been written by the Enoch in the Bible. Enoch was seven generations from Adam, prior to the Flood (Genesis 5:1-24). Evidently, though, this was genuinely something that Enoch prophesied or the Bible would not attribute it to him, Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men (Jude 14). This saying of Enoch was evidently handed down by tradition, and eventually recorded in the Book of Enoch."
I quote Machiavelli and Hitler to see how the CHANGE guys followed a well known pattern of stealing people's kingdom from them: I don't try to defend either one.
I quote The Scribes but Christ's view was:
Even the stork in the heavens knows her times; and the turtledove, swallow, and crane keep the time of their coming; but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD."How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. The wise men shall be put to shame, they shall be dismayed and taken; lo, THEY HAVE REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD, and what wisdom is in them? Jeremiah 8:8-9 RSV
I quote Cyril, I don't need to defend him:
Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on John,
That the Pharisees puffed up unto strange boasting,
were wont to pretend that the Divine Word was with them and in them,
and therefore foolishly affirmed that they had advanced to marvellous wisdom,
the Spirit Itself will testify,
since Christ says by the Prophet Jeremiah unto them,
How do ye say, WE are wise, and the word of the Lord is with us?
For nought to the scribes became their lying pen;
the wise men were ashamed, were dismayed and taken;
what wisdom is in them? because they rejected the word of the Lord.
For how are they not taken rejecting the Living and Hypostatic Word of God, receiving not the faith to Him-ward,
but dishonouring the Impress of God the Father, and refusing to behold His most true Form (so to say)
through His God-befitting Authority and Power?
Understand? Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: Christ in Ezekiel 33 called them slick speakers, singers and instrument players. Why do you try to justify those Jesus and all of the Greek literature calls hypocrites (anything above the direct command to READ and apply)?
|Dr. Bill Crump|
So if Ken doesn't think Enoch is inspired and Dave concurs, then why is Dave being so defensive? What's he hollering about anyway? Hmmm? Maybe that's just Dave's nature--to scream and shout at those with whom he ordinarily disagrees.
|July 22 2011, 7:39 PM |
Ken knows when to hold them and knows when to fold them. How about you doctor? Do you still believe Enoch is inspired?
|Dr. Bill Crump|
|July 22 2011, 9:44 PM |
Hold them and fold them--I didn't think Ken was playing poker.
R* wrote: "How about you [sic] doctor [sic]?"
That should be: "How about you, Doctor"?
We've previously discussed when to use a comma and when to capitalize.
BTW, does R* think that Enoch was not inspired?
It's just a rhetorical question because, as I said, religious arguments are futile.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
|July 22 2011, 11:50 PM |
A Church of Christ summer camp held a Bible quiz one night. When one of the boys didn't know the answer to a question, he finally said, "I fold!" There were quite a few raised eyebrows, and the Church elders probably had a long talk with the boy and his parents, either that night or as soon as everyone returned home.
|Dr. Bill. Crump|
|July 22 2011, 6:24 PM |
Since Jude says Enoch made a prophecy about God, was Enoch just whistlin' "Dixie" (or some Hebrew counterpart) when he made that prophecy, or was he "inspired" when he made that prophecy? Could a prophecy about God come from an uninspired man and yet be important enough for Jude, an "inspired" man, to quote it and give validity to it?
As I said, religious arguments are futile.
Can You take the Heat?
|July 22 2011, 11:24 PM |
Regardless, Enoch is not a part of the inspired Scriptures and therefore should not be taught as truthful.
People just do not believe in the Power of God to use men (translators) to do His bidding. If God believed that Enoch should have been included in the OT or NT......it would have been.
ANYONE who quotes from Enoch to teach anything about the WAY or the validity of our God is wrong!
When a man believes himself to be above God and wants to add to the Word of God is in trouble big time.
There, William Crump, is the problem.
Am I still screaming and hollering Bill???
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Re: Can You take the Heat?
|July 23 2011, 8:35 AM |
Dave wrote: "ANYONE who quotes from Enoch to teach anything about the WAY or the validity of our God is wrong!"
Hmmm. According to Dave, Jude, who quoted the prophecy of Enoch about God, was wrong. In essence, Dave is saying that Jude, an inspired man, was WRONG. In that case, Dave, who denies that Enoch was inspired when he made a prophecy about God, should tear the Epistle of Jude from his Bible, because Jude was WRONG. That's what you're saying, Dave.
Yes, Dave, you are STILL screaming and hollering, and you will continue to do so.
|July 22 2011, 11:27 PM |
Is this the grammar thread? Didn't think so.
Can you take a hint?
Nevermind.....I forgot you cheated on the test.
|July 23 2011, 2:05 AM |
I agree -- this is not the grammar thread.
Now, let's note that Ken has said: "The Book of Enoch and 3 dozen similar documents which I have posted agree with the Bible that...." The key expression in the statement is when those "documents ... posted agree with the Bible." Obviously, why would he post sources that contradict what the Bible teaches, other than to contrast lies and Bible truths?
Furthermore, you are putting words in his mouth and misleading readers when you assert that he believes that the Book of Enoch is divinely inspired and should be in addition to the 66 books of the Bible.
Know that there are several books referenced in the Bible itself, and they are not in the Bible (and no one is advancing or suggesting the notion that they should be additional books in the Bible):
Wouldn't you be interested in reading or studying these books and sources, if/when available? What about writings by the early "church fathers" (Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, Origen, et al)? Of course, they're not divinely inspired. But we certainly can benefit from them.
- "Are they not written in the book of Shemaiah the prophet" (2 Chron. 12:15)?
- "Are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet" (2 Chron. 9:29)?
- "They are written in the book of Gad the seer" (1 Chron. 29:29).
- "They were written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah" (1 Chron. 9:1).
- "It is written in the book of Jasher" (2 Sam. 1:18).
- "It is said in the book of the wars of the LORD" (Num. 21:14).
|Dr. Bill Crump|
|July 23 2011, 8:43 AM |
Dave needs to roll with the punches here. And if he made a slightly lower score than I did on the test, he DEFINITELY cheated. Bwaaahhaha!
BTW, you never attempted to answer the latest pop quiz in the SGP thread. I didn't think you would. It was posted especially for you.
|Dr. Bill Crump|
|July 23 2011, 10:18 AM |
I would be remiss if I didn't tell Dave that his "Didn't think so" is a sentence fragment. His juvenile ramblings would sound just a bit more mature (though not by much) if he used complete sentences. "I didn't think so" is much better.
A Disciple doesn't judge the resource
|July 23 2011, 1:18 PM |
A Disciple of CHRIST is a student of what "He commanded to be taught." Peter makes it clear that Christ in Spirit inspired the Prophets and Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled these prophecies. Peter said they are not to be further expounded and Paul said they shall not be corrupted or SOLD. Christ made that a LAW in Isaiah 55 and 58.
The Church is built upon the Prophets and Apostles who left us a "memory." These epistles are largely ignored in the Just Jesus Cult.
Christ in the Prophets especially as they spoke of the temple warned of "the lying pen of the Scribes." He called them hypocrites or speakers, singers and instrument players. He clearly says that God did not command sacrifices and burnt offerings. If you are a theologian and not a disciple you might Pull a Rick Atchley Maneuver and tell the whole world that God commanded THAT HIS church do that which Christ said God did not command.
Because a Disciple is commaneded to use one mind and one mouth speaking that which is written for our learning, and that has been my practice, I understand the difference between that which is written for our IMITATION and that which is written for our LEARNING.
I have never had an urge to build an ark or burn a bull: preachers, however, because they are not usually obedient disciples of Christ spend a lot of time SHOOTING BULL. However, Jesus cast out the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG.
If you can find a church which teaches the word as it is written for our learning, then you will know these things and understand that the command is not to judge that which has been hammered for these thousands of years.
Jesus didn't demand that I be anything other than a DISCIPLE of HIM. So, I dont' ask the divine permission of anyone when I decide what to study to keep from being illiterate.
Smiley All Star Band
|July 23 2011, 10:32 PM |
Doctor and the boys celebrate the grammar corrections.
BTW, which one is the doctor?
Doctor, put your grammar corrections in the proper thread!
|Dr. Bill Crump|
Re: Smiley All [sic] Star Band
|July 24 2011, 1:15 AM |
R*, cool your jets
! BTW, that should be, "Doctor, put your GRAMMATICAL corrections in the proper thread," not "...grammar corrections..."
Alternative: "Doctor, put your corrections of spelling, grammar, and punctuation in the proper thread!"
If I correct you in the SGP thread, you'll just ignore it. We absolutely cannot
If I correct you in the thread wherein you make the error(s), you're less likely to miss the corrections. Oh, you'll fuss and post silly pictures, because that's all you know how to do, but you'll at least be aware of the corrections.
Look at it this way: When a student makes an error in the classroom, the teacher corrects him right there; the teacher doesn't make the student go elsewhere to find what he said, wrote, or did that was wrong. It's the same here. Each thread is the "classroom," where errors can be corrected right there
; the SGP thread is the "elsewhere."
Now there's just one more thing: Your heading should read "Smiley All-Star Band," not "Smiley All Star Band."