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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Study: "not of works" vs. "we are his workmanship, created ... unto good works"

August 13 2011, 6:08 AM 

Here is another Bible study challenge: Ephesians 2:8,9 VERSUS Ephesians 2:10. Oddly, all the verses are from the same book (Ephesians) and chapter (2)

Ephesians 2:8,9 [emphases mine, dc]
  • For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Eph. 2:8, KJV)

  • For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (Eph. 2:8, ESV)

  • For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Eph. 2:8, NASB)

  • For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God (Eph. 2:8, Intl Std V)

  • God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God. (Eph. 2:8, GOD'S WORD® Transl)

  • For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- (Eph. 2:8, NIV)

  • for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Eph. 2:8, ASV)

  • Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:9, KJV)

VERSUS


Ephesians 2:10
  • For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)


Matters to consider in contrasting the context in both passages:
  • Clue: cf. the post above "Grace Is God's Part: Are Works Active or a 'Result'?" (August 2 2011, 12:06 AM).
  • The significance of quoting Ephesians 2:8 from various translations:
  • "Saved" expressed in present tense ("are ye saved");
  • "Saved" expressed in past tense ("saved you");
  • "Saved" expressed in perfect tense ("have ye been saved"; "you have been saved").
  • The more accurate translation is: "were ye saved" or "saved you" or "you have been saved" ... indicating the conversion (initial or past salvation) of one from being outside of Christ to being in Christ.
  • "NOT OF WORKS" is mentioned in verse 9; however,...
  • "WE ARE are his WORKMANSHIP created ... UNTO GOOD WORKS" is stated in verse 10.
  • Why is that contrast?
  • NOTE the following:
  • CONVERSION (past salvation) indicates being a process in redemption that does not account for man's GOOD WORKS -- none whatsoever. The ultimate step in the conversion process is the burial and resurrection with the Redeemer in baptism. The benefit is the remission of sins in His blood, as well as the reception of the gift of refreshing, a clear conscience, a holy and pure mind/spirit. Ephesians 2:8,9.
  • PRESENT SALVATION: We have been (were) converted to Christ and we are now in Christ (Christians). Christians are to do GOOD WORKS or WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS--this is a command--as faith without works is DEAD (Ephesians 2:10; James 2)
  • Sinners were SAVED by GRACE through faith without works (past salvation).
  • Christians are still UNDER GRACE (Romans 6:1,14,15) and confess sins and be forgiven; but Christians do not live by faith only, but must be obedient and productive by doing good works also.
  • There is no conflict between Eph. 2:8,9 (not of works) and Ephesians 2:10 (of works of righteousness).
  • Therefore, there is no conflict between GRACE and WORKS.


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Change Agents/Baptists Don't Get It--God's MERCY vs. WORKS" in Titus 3:5,8

August 16 2011, 3:35 AM 


Sub-Title:

Salvation in This Order: PAST, PRESENT, FUTURE

(1. Conversion, 2. Christian Living, 3. Reward or Punishment)


Here is another Bible study challenge: Titus 3:5 VERSUS Titus 3:8. Oddly, all the verses are from the same book (Titus) and the same chapter (3)

Titus 3:5--Past Salvation (Conversion) [emphases mine, dc]
  • He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5, NIV)

  • He saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3:5, NLT)

  • He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5, ESV)

  • He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5, NASB)

  • 'Twas not for deeds that we had done, but by his steadfast love alone, he saved us through a second birth, renewed us by the Spirit's work, (Titus 3:5, Intl S V)

  • He saved us, but not because of anything we had done to gain his approval. Instead, because of his mercy he saved us through the washing in which the Holy Spirit gives us new birth and renewal. (Titus 3:5, God's Word® Transl)

  • Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5, KJV, AKJV)

  • Not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5, ASV)

  • Not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves, but in the measure of his mercy, he gave us salvation, through the washing of the new birth and the giving of new life in the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5, Bible in Basic Eng)

  • Not on the principle of works which have been done in righteousness which we had done, but according to his own mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5, Darby Bible Tr.)

  • Not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, (Titus 3:5, ERV)

  • Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; (Titus 3:5, Webster Bible Tr.)

  • As righteous men, had done, but as the result of His own mercy He saved us by means of the bath of regeneration and the renewal of our natures by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5, Weymouth NT)

  • Not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5, World Eng. Bible)

  • (not by works that are in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5, Young's Literal Tr.)
VERSUS

Titus 3:8--Present Salvation (Christian Living Faithfully)
  • ... so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. (Titus 3:8, NIV)

  • ... so that all who trust in God will devote themselves to doing good. (Titus 3:8, NLT)

  • ... so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. (Titus 3:8, ESV)

  • ... so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. (Titus 3:8, NASB)

  • ... so that those who have put their faith in God may devote themselves to good works. (Titus 3:8, Intl S V)

  • ... so that those who believe in God can concentrate on setting an example by doing good things. (Titus 3:8, God's Word® Transl)

  • This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. (Titus 3:8, KJV, AKJV)

  • ... to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. (Titus 3:8, ASV)

  • ... so that those who have had faith in God may give attention to good works. (Titus 3:8, Bible in Basic Eng)

  • ... that they who have believed God may take care to pay diligent attention to good works. (Titus 3:8, Darby Bible Tr.)

  • ... to the end that they which have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. (Titus 3:8, ERV)

  • ... that they who have believed in God may be careful to maintain good works. (Titus 3:8, Webster Bible Tr.)

  • ... in order that those who have their faith fixed on God may be careful to set an example of good actions. (Titus 3:8, Weymouth NT)

  • ... so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. (Titus 3:8, World Eng. Bible)

  • ... that they may be thoughtful to be leading in good works -- who have believed God. (Titus 3:8, Young's Literal Tr.)
VERSUS

Titus 3:7--Future Salvation (Reward: Eternal Life)
  • ... we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
  • ... that we will inherit eternal life.we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
  • ... we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
  • ... made heirs by his own grace, eternal life we now embrace.
  • ... we have become heirs who have the confidence that we have everlasting life.
  • ... we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
  • ... we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
  • ... we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
  • ... we might have a part in the heritage, the hope of eternal life.
  • ... we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting.
  • ... we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
  • ... we might become heirs to the Life of the Ages in fulfilment of our hopes.
  • ... we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
  • ... heirs we may become according to the hope of life age-during.

TAKING IT IN CONTEXT

Titus 3:1-8
  • [1] Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
  • [2] To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
  • [3] For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
  • [4] But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
  • [5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
  • [6] Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
  • [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
  • [8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.


Matters to consider in contrasting the context in the passages:
  • Clue: cf. the post above "Grace Is God's Part: Are Works Active or a 'Result'?" (August 2 2011, 12:06 AM).
  • The significance of quoting Titus 3:5,7,8 from various translations:
  • "Saved" (converted) expressed in the past tense ("he saved us ... he gave us salvation") in conjunction with "not by works of righteousness");
  • "Not of Works of righteousness" expressed in past or perfect tense ("which we did ... which we have done ... which we had done ... done by us ... which have been done");

  • NOTE the following:

  • CONVERSION (past salvation) indicates being a process in redemption that does not account for man's GOOD WORKS -- none whatsoever. The ultimate step in the conversion process is the burial and resurrection with the Redeemer in baptism. The benefit is the remission of sins in His blood, as well as the reception of the gift of refreshing, a clear conscience, a holy and pure mind/spirit. Acts 2:37-38; Eph. 2:8,9.
  • PRESENT SALVATION: We have been (were) converted to Christ and we are now in Christ (Christians). Christians are to do GOOD WORKS or WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS--this is a command--as faith without works is DEAD (Ephesians 2:10; James 2)
  • Sinners were SAVED by GRACE through faith without works (past salvation).
  • Christians are still UNDER GRACE (Romans 6:1,14,15) and confess sins and be forgiven; but Christians do not live by faith only, but must be obedient and productive by doing good works also.
  • There is no conflict between Eph. 2:8,9 (not of works in conversion) and Ephesians 2:10 (of works of righteousness in Christian living).
  • There is no conflict between Titus 3:5 (not of works in conversion) and Titus 3:8 (of good works Christians are to do and maintain).
  • "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city" (Rev. 22:14).
  • "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works" (Rev. 20:12,13).
  • Therefore, there is no conflict between God's GRACE and the Christian's WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
  • Therefore, there is no conflict between God's MERCY and the Christian's WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.


 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

On and On and On and On and On.....and....

August 16 2011, 3:41 PM 

Who you preaching to Donnie?
Whose benefit might this be for? The baptists that come here?
Me? You? Whomever?

All the aforementioned?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
207.65.198.2

Grace was a "blue eyed blond prostitute"

August 16 2011, 4:49 PM 

You need to get you someone to learn you some reeding and righting before you tackle Donnies put together work.

Ecclesiastes 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink,
nd enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

Ecclesiastes 5:19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth,
and hath given him power to eat thereof,
and to take his portion,
and to rejoice in his labour;
this is the gift of God.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her,
If thou knewest the gift of God,
and who it is that saith to thee,
Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him,
and he would have given thee living water.

There is NO GRACE for the ungrateful.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.7.26

Calm Down

August 16 2011, 9:25 PM 

Donnie's posts are for the general readership, Dave. If you don't like them, just don't read them. There's no need to get bent out of shape over them.

 
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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

...and I wonder...Still

August 17 2011, 3:32 PM 

Donnie's post looked in very preacher presentable outline form. Any preacher would be so impressed. I wonder how Paul and Jesus would rate it?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
207.65.198.201

I'm impressed

August 17 2011, 3:48 PM 

I'm impressed but my impressed impression is that preachers tend to go into overload if you quote more than verse 3d and don't feed them some turkey soup for the sick.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
98.87.23.195

Re: ...and I wonder...Still

August 17 2011, 5:36 PM 

As long as the information presented is scriptural truth, Jesus and Paul would undoubtedly rate it an A+. I wonder if Dave finds anything scripturally wrong with it. If so, he hasn't mentioned it. Is it possible that Dave is grousing because he doesn't find anything wrong with Donnie's information? wink.gif

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
207.65.198.49

God HIDES Himself from the Wise

August 17 2011, 11:24 PM 

The WISE are Sophists: they are highly trained as speakers, singers, instrument players, theater builders and stage managers (Techne)

God won't speak to you: you have to become a BABE.

If Jesus commands to make disciples by Baptizing and Teaching them.
Or says "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved."

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Never any "but, but, but"

This is the STUMBLING BLOCK: if you begin to judge the Word of God He knows that you have no possibility of living in a spiritual kingdom: we worship in spirit or IN THE MIND and not by wiggling our bodies. Paul said that you will be like the Jews: neither able to HEAR or SEE the Word of God until you convert or are baptized into Christ: then you will even know that THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT.

[linked image]

Sorry Charlie: no Carping fish or Sucker Fish required.

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Various and Sundry Matters Yet to Be Discussed

August 23 2011, 3:54 AM 

Been extremely busy of late. Know that there are scores and hundred of topics just waiting to be discussed:

  • "Works of the law" is mentioned some seven times in the New Testament. What law is it speaking of, and what are works of the law?

  • The word "mercy" is referenced in the N.T. some 60 times. (I haven't counted mercy that relates to Jesus Christ, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, God, the Master, the Lord.) But God's grace (but not God's mercy or God's love) is being used to discredit the faithful Christian's good works or works of righteousness. Why is that?

  • Christians are UNDER grace, and not UNDER the law. What's the difference?

  • What is the difference between: (1) works of the law and (2) works of righteousness?

  • If there is abundance of God's grace, why is there a question of: "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

  • More ... more ... more

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

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5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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