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Francis J. Winder Music of the Saints

August 28 2011 at 11:16 PM
Ken SublettF  (Login Ken.Sublett)
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Francis J. Winder Music of the Saints

Robert Ballard is certain that he has made a case for the use of the Levite's instruments in the assembly of the saints which is a School of the Word from the Church in the Wilderness onward. He appeals to Francis J. Winder specificially on the history of instruments. The church engaged in lots of residual pagan practices which was not the Sunday assembly: they had Martyr's day, Saint's Days, Funeral festivals at which some instruments were play: after all the Catholic Encyclopedia says they got music from the pagan cultus to attract the pagans.

The reign of Christ had as a major purpose the destruction of the Jew's Covenant with Death dominated by the Levites who were EXECUTION MINISTERS if a godly civillian came near any holy thing or place.

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Re: Francis J. Winder Music of the Saints

August 29 2011, 5:08 PM 

Ken, will you be disappointed if there is instrumental music in heaven?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Musical Idolatry at Mount Sinai was NOT REDEEMABLE.

August 29 2011, 9:25 PM 

Since God blames instrumental music for every FALL FROM GRACE beginning with the "singing and harp playing prostitute" in the garden of Eden, I would wonder how Christ the ROCK could have been so harsh against all of the Civil-Military-Clergy complex He had the prophets call robbers and parasites.

However, NO ONE PLAYS instruments in the Book of Revelation. Since there is no "congregational singing with accompaniment" in the whole Bible or church history pre reformation, I would wounder OUT LOUD why anyone would even hallucinate music always defined as a hypocritic art as pleasing God when it drives about half of the world into frenzy--destroying the spirit He gave us.

Based on ALL of the pro-instrument agents of discord, I would be surprised that any of them have an IQ as long as their shoelace and I don't see how they could possibly be a Disciple. Only Disciples of Christ are called Christians and the are commanded to teach what Jesus commanded to be taught.

I am reading some Winder: He thinks that the Jerusalem Council would have bee the best time for God to condemn HIS APPROVED use of instruments and since SILENCE GIVES CONCENT he thinks (or thought) that the council was God's APPROVAL of instrumental music.

Being a preacher he is not a Bible student because corrupting the Word is "selling learning at retail." He doesn't know that the Church in the wilderness was the Church of Christ built on the ROCK. That Qahal, synagogue or church OUTLAWED vocal or instrumental rejoicing which included an elevated form of speaking--you know as in preachercating or musicating.

I just blush out loud every time I read some preacher-spill proclaiming that the sacrificial system was GOD'S PATTERNISM FOR WORSHIP UNDER THE OLD LAW. That view of a Holy God is enough to brand you as a blasphemer.

People who lift proof texts and then brand anyone who does not follow their turkey-gobbling as a hypocrite when Jesus named the hypocrites as speakers, singers and instrument players, proves why I would propose that if I had Satan's job my guys would take over all of the pulpits (bema or high places) and blaspheme by not following the direct command to READ and EXHORT one another with THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING. Don't know what means that? That means to speak "that which is written" as in the simple sentence "speak that which is written" without proving one's viper DNA by whining "DIDN'T SAY dont teach that which is NOT written."

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Be Disappointed If There Is? Great Question!

August 30 2011, 12:56 AM 

You must be referring to instrumental music in the Book of Revelation.

I will not be disappointed to actually "see" the seven angels with their trumpets. Rev. 8:6--"And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."

It is exciting to me to read and visualize the following accounts:

  • The 1st angel sounded:--"there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up." (Rev. 8:7)

  • The 2nd angel sounded:--"as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;" (Rev. 8:8)

  • The 3rd angel sounded:--"there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;" (Rev. 8:10)

  • The 4th angel sounded:--"the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise." (Rev. 8:12)

  • The 5th angel sounded:--"I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle." (Rev. 9:1,9)

  • The 6th angel sounded:--"I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God." (Rev. 9:13)

  • The 7th angel sounded:--"there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." (Rev. 11:15)

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Be Disappointed If There Is? Great Question!

August 30 2011, 9:35 AM 

It's interesting to note people's treatment of Revelation when it comes to instrumental music. Most people regard Revelation as a book of symbolism, yet of all those many symbolic passages, those about angels playing "harps" suddenly become literal and the "justification" for using IM in Christian worship on earth. With the exception of the early chapters that address the seven churches in Asia, the passages about "harps in heaven" seem to be the only other ones taken literally. Heaven is a spiritual place that transcends the physical in every way, yet it is ironic that some people actually believe musical instruments will be the ONLY physical items from earth that will be carried into heaven. Everything else physical from earth will vanish away EXCEPT the musical instruments, which will fly to heaven for everyone to play. Just as the Catholics have fabricated Purgatory and Limbo as alternatives to hell, so people have fabricated literal, physical musical instruments in heaven to justify their worldly desires in worship on earth.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

ALL of the trumpt sounds are God or Man judging or warning

August 30 2011, 1:23 PM 

It is perfectly clear that if you decide to MAKE MUSIC in what is defined inclusively and exclusively as "A School of Christ" (Christ in the wilderness, the Campbells, early history, etal) then you INSULT God. In the Biblical examples and all of the contemporaneous Hebrew literature the sin cannot be REDEEMED. That's why the Levites volunteered to SLAUGHTER 3,000 of the "brethren" who engaged in musical idolatry of the triad. Since no one can be that Bible-deprived, we conclude that they are agents of an alien power. She is the Babylon mother of harlots in Revelation 17 and her "fruits" as speakers, singers and instrument players are called SORCERERS (Rev 18) and they are marked as being cast alive into the Lake of Fire along with all other blasphemers.

It simply doesn't matter what the Bible says: they will try their best to lie about God and to God but deep down in their liver they despise the Word of Christ in the Prophets and apostles. That incluses the massed multitudes of preachers who go balistic when you tell them that God didn't COMMANDE what happened when He TURNED THEM OVER to worship the starry host. I don't think you can sell the free water of the Word and have God NOT hid Himself from the WISE or sophists meaning self-speak preachers, singers and instrument players. The SOUNDS of the trumpet are clearly the MARK of those God has abandoned.

Matthew 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms,
The poor box (for the poor) was in each synagogue: that means don't pass the plate with musical background. not sound a trumpet before thee, the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets,
.....that they may have glory of men.
.....Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

.....Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest,
.....thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are:
.....for they love to pray standing [hymning] in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets,
.....that they may be seen of men.
.....Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
G5273 hupokrites hoop-ok-ree-tace' From G5271 ; an actor under an assumed character (stage player), that is, (figuratively) a dissembler ("hypocrite"):hypocrite.
Matt 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
G945 battologeo bat-tol-og-eh'-o From Battos (a proverbial stammerer) and G3056; to stutter, that is, (by implication) to prate tediously: use vain repetitions.
Like David? "The 'whirling dervishes' gyrate round their sheikh in a representation of the planets circling the sun... The dervishes whirl on their own axes and also in orbit, reciting inwardly the name of God: Alah, Alah, Alah. With closed eyes they whirl, to the music of flutes, drums and strings, seeking union with the divine, till they cease and return to stillness." (Parrinder, Geoffrey, Mysticism in the World's Religions, Oxford University , p. 131).

Allah is the Moon Goddess: since Israel had been turned back to their old religion and were being prepared to go back to Babylon, why should anyone not be aware that the Jews worshipped the starry host because THAT'S what God sentenced them to. Missed Acts 7 in Phd schoo?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Musical Instruments: The Seven Trumpets--No Speculation There!!!

September 1 2011, 3:00 AM 

Rev. 8:2,6 -- "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. ... And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."

Instrumental music lovers get really excited when a mechanical device that produces music or the "sound of music" is mentioned in the book of Revelation. Then, it becomes their proof that such is authorized for use in the assembly of saints.

A good example of that excitement is in the passage quoted above. That "trumpets" that the angels prepared themselves to sound (whether there were seven or more or fewer) is simply their proof that musical devices are authorized for use in the gathering of the church. Furthermore, it's not just trumpets, but even all other sorts of instruments (Daniel 3 lists some of them: cornet, flute, harp, psaltery, dulcimer, sackbut) are acceptable.

Lest I forget, the passage mentions the special number: seven (7). Seven ANGELS. Seven TRUMPETS. Were the angels visible and literal according to the passage? Were the trumpets visible and literal according to the passage?

Let's think about "the symbolic" versus "the literal" for a moment. Let's also think about the number "seven." OK, seven trumpets -- that instrument lovers would like to think as being physical/literal musical devices. What about these, then:

----- Seven spirits (1:4)
----- Seven stars (1:16)
----- Seven lamps (4:5)
----- Seven seals (5:1)
----- Seven horns (5:6)
----- Seven eyes (5:6)
----- Seven thunders (10:3)
----- Seven heads (12:3)
----- Seven crowns (12:3)
----- Seven plagues (15:1)
----- Seven vials (17:1)
----- Seven mountains (17:9)
----- Seven kings (17:10)

Well, we might as well account for some of the other numbers:

----- Two witnesses (11:5)
----- Two demonic invasions (9)
----- Two beasts (13:1,11)
----- Two wings (12:14)
----- Three special angels (8:13)
----- Three frog-like evil spirits (16:13)
----- Four living creatures (4:6)
----- Four hellish horses (6:1-8)
----- Four special angels associated with the 144,000 (7:1)
----- Four special angels associated with the Euphrates River (9:15)
----- Four winds (7:1)
----- Six wings on the living creatures (4:8)

I would hate to disappoint IM lovers, but when I think of the TRUMPETS, I also think of the vials, the beasts, the wings, the living creatures, the black horse, the horns, the eyes, the frog-like evil spirits, the lamps, the seals, the plagues ... the lion, calf, eagle, lamb, locusts, scorpion, dragon, leopard, bear, frogs, serpent , birds of prey, sheep, dogs -- and WHAT THEY REPRESENT!!! Or, SYMBOLIZE???

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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