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Matthew 18:15-17

September 6 2011 at 12:25 AM
Sonny  (no login)
from IP address

Brother Cruz,

Post a letter of apology and repentance on this website and no longer publish divisive filth.


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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Rom. 16:17 -- "Mark Them Which Cause Divisions; Avoid Them"

September 6 2011, 3:43 AM 

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (Romans 16:17)

Brother Elliott,

I have read your recent posts in reference to instrumental music in the church of Christ Jesus. You are an angry man.

You seemed unwilling to accept the fact that this practice was the ultimate reason for the religious census of 1906 that settled the marked division between: (1) the church of Christ of which you CLAIM to be a member and (2) the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ group with some of its congregations maintaining the Church of Christ label.

Whether or not most of the "Churches of Christ" (Disciples of Christ/Christian Church) in Australia use instrumental music is not the point. The churches of Christ worldwide, including those in Australia, Africa, India, the Philippines, and other countries do not indulge in operating musical devices in their assemblies, with the exception of about 20 in the United States.

If you believe or even pretend that there is no or there hasn't been a division resulting from the operation of mechanical music [you know -- "mechanical" or "musical machinery"] in the assembly, you are in your delusionary state of mind.

If you believe that the church of Christ and the Christian/Disciples Church should be "united" with or without the trumpet or sackbut, then, go for it, by all means.

(1) The change agents have already done their part by initially using the professional services of the "Praise Team" (the Baptist "choir" in the church) and eventually implementing mechanical music in the assembly. Result????? Some 20 congregations that have embraced such changes (and many thanks to their ELDERS!!!). These congregations have either become Christian Church surrogates or converted to Community Church-ism.

(2) There is another task to accomplish. It is your turn to intrude upon the affairs of the Disciples/Christian Church. Try as hard as you can to convince them to sell their musical instruments or donate them to Goodwill or to other denominations.

Brother, I did not cause this division.

If there should be a letter of apology and repentance, do not expect that from me or from this website. That is not going to happen.

If I were you, I would immediately begin to obtain the mailing addresses of the change agents operating in the brotherhood -- we have already provided some of their names. Notify them and require them to write to thousands of congregations of the church of Christ Jesus a letter of apology and repentance ... and not to EVER do that anymore.

By the way, this website will continue to warn (maybe not you, but) your own relatives who may seem to wonder why you have fallen for the contemptible efforts of the change agents to divide the church over inanimate, lifeless musical objects. This website will continue to warn peaceful congregations that change agents may be arriving soon in their localities.

The divisive filth is in the evil schemes of the change agents.

Donnie Cruz

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(no login)

Attack and Denial

September 6 2011, 6:14 PM 

Attack me as being angry. Deny that this site is divisive or going against Matthew 18:15-17. I am just guessing you have never talked directly with Rick Atchley about any issues, nor any of these other Christian men. Have you? If not, these actions are wrong and sinful. If so, but now going public on this forum instead of directly to those congregations, is wrong and sinful. Jesus may or may not be angry for you not living by Matthew 18:15-17. I have no reason to be angry. Again, I believe your motives are pure.


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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Attack and Denial

September 6 2011, 9:28 PM 

Actually, Matt. 18:15-17 addresses the situation when one individual does wrong against another individual, whereas Romans 16:17 addresses those who insist on espousing and promoting unscriptural doctrines; such people are to be marked (identified) and avoided. Since the change agents so espouse unscriptural doctrines, it is therefore RIGHT and SCRIPTURAL to mark them and avoid them. Yet change agents and their sympathizers would twist Scripture and make gullible people believe that it is "wrong" and "sinful" to identify them as the false teachers that they are.

Change agents are indeed very desperate people.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Attack and Denial

September 7 2011, 1:12 AM 


Your demand that I apologize and repent certainly had an angry tone. It wasn't even a request that I thought would be coming from someone (like you) -- with the willingness and patience to discuss matters civilly as I have learned to know you. You did surprise me, in fact. For one to think or feel that the other is angry is not an attack. But for one to demand an apology and repentance is self-righteous and condemnatory.

Is there any reason for me talk directly to Rick Atchley about his motive to transform the Richland Hills into an instrumental-music-loving congregation? I think NOT. It's too late for that. Besides, I am sure he's heard plenty from other congregations already. So, there's no need for you to guess about it anymore -- I have NOT talked directly to Rick Atchley.

I find it interesting that you specifically mentioned Rick Atchley, and not any of the other change agents. Why, Sonny? The best Rick could do after the transformation was to change the name to "The Hills Church of Christ." (Wait. There was already the "Richland Hills Christian Church.")

That's OK. We can use "The Hills Church of Christ" as an example of what's troubling to many members of a congregation undergoing a major transformation. Here it is -- family members, relative and friends may sadly and unfortunately experience separation: some remain in the congregation while others seek fellowship somewhere else.

Do you really want to know who's causing division in the church? No, not I. No, not the Scripture. Try again. It's the change agent, stupid.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Attack and Denial

September 7 2011, 10:15 AM 

Resist seemingly sweet-tempered change agents often enough, and their "Christian" facades will peel away to reveal previously unknown creatures who roar and gnash their teeth in bitter anger at those who oppose them.

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(no login)

God Will Not Keep You From Choosing Evil

September 6 2011, 8:18 AM 

I wouldn't expect you to pen such an apology Donnie.
Your arrogance and pride is huge....huge enough even to keep you out of heaven.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: God Will Not Keep You From Choosing Evil

September 6 2011, 11:38 AM 

Dave, tell me what you did not understand when you read my response. I will be glad to elucidate further.

I am just a simple man with no aspirations to associate myself with the change agents whose pride is HUGE in making a HUGE name for themselves by rewriting the history of the Restoration Movement. Their influence is so HUGE as to create havoc in once-peaceful congregations. Huge names as MAX Lucado, Al MAXey [your favorite agent], Rick Atchley, et al. They are the discord sowers.

I am trying my very best to remain faithful in Christian living and to remain faithful and loyal to God's truth and His church. I'd rather not change the doctrine of Christ and His apostles, would you? The AGENTS OF CHANGE have done just that, and is it surprising why they're referred to as "change agents"? By not modifying and altering God's truth, I strongly believe I am safe in that regard.

What about you? Unlike you and your self-righteous judgment of others, I would leave it to God -- it will be His call on the Judgment Day.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: God Will Not Keep You From Choosing Evil

September 7 2011, 12:01 AM 

Dave wrote of Donnie: "Your arrogance and pride is huge....huge enough even to keep you out of heaven."

So now Dave, based on his own personal criteria, is deciding who will be barred from heaven. Talk about blatant arrogance...

Dave should have much better control over his anger.

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(no login)

Sin Will Always Be Sin

September 6 2011, 2:06 PM 

Donnie, you said..."By not modifying and altering God's truth, I strongly believe I am safe in that regard."

You claim that four part harmony a capella is not altering God's Word. There is no authority for such, other than to sing. Singing is still accomplished even with the additional harmony parts. You PREFER the tradition of four-part a capella harmony.

Others claim that instrumental music is not altering God's Word. There is no authority for such, other than to sing. Singing is still accomplished even with the instruments aiding the singing. They prefer the tradition of instruments to aid the singing.

You consider one (instrumental music with the singing) to be wrong, while you don't consider the four part a capella singing to be wrong.
You have never proven, by the Word of God, where the one is right and preferred over the never will.

You HAVE modified God's Truth by making instrumental music wrong. You have sinned for condemnation of such. You condemn someone for judging, yet you do the same. It is called hypocrisy.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

You Are Correct: Sin Will Always Be Sin

September 6 2011, 3:10 PM 


Where is brother Sonny when you need him to defend your argument or cause?

Four-part harmony is not a musical object or device. You know better. A musical device, lifeless and inanimate at that, must be struck, percussed, beat or played (or "played with" as a professional toy) to produce sounds or noises. You would not want that done to your vocal cords.

The purpose of singing or speaking hymns in the assembly is to "let the word of Christ dwell in you RICHLY (Colossians 3:16). It means that in order to "teach and admonish one another" via singing or speaking in the assembly, the message expressed in the hymn must be clear and understandable. The musical device does not have a message to convey whatsoever. So, what is the purpose of blowing the trumpet or strumming the guitar? Answer, anyone? Dave?

I must admit that even the four-part harmony, when it's too complex and redirects the attention and focus away from the truth being clearly understood and from indwelling in us richly, may not be conducive to the teaching and admonition that ought to take place in the assembly.

Singing and speaking to teach and admonish is an "apostolic tradition." Do not confuse that with the man-made, papal-decreed (Roman Catholic Church) tradition of operating musical devices in "the Mass."

Besides, you can still have "singing" WHILE playing the sackbut or blowing the trumpet -- just as well as WHEN you're burning incense or singing praises and adoration to the Immaculate Conception, the Virgin Mary ("Mother of God") WHILE singing. We know about the ability of man to MULTI-TASK in God's presence.

When there is no mention in Scripture of using inanimate, lifeless musical objects and devices in the assembly of New Testament saints, IN THE FIRST PLACE, obviously, there is no modification or alteration involved.

No, Dave, I have not modified or altered the Scripture -- it is still intact.

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Ken Sublettt
(Login Ken.Sublett)

1906 Census

September 6 2011, 4:00 PM 

The first census in 1906 did not change anything. It listed the Churches of Christ separate from the Methodists; this does not prove that the churches of christ now belongs to the Methodists.

The only urge for unity between what became the Disciples of Christ/Christian churches and what became The Church of Christ included a few handshakes: this was based on a set of standards from which Churches of Christ have never deviated. The Disciples wsent out and almost immediately got in bed with the Millerites (SDA), formed a "society" and decided that THEY had to convert all of the Jews before Jesus COULD RETURN on time in 1844.

Alexander adopted the title of The Millennial Harbinger to examine all of the views and REPUDIATED all of them. He laughed at the notion that a UNION could be achieved by afew handshakes.

In 1906 the Disciples/Christian Churches had a grand denominational scheme to "include ALL OF CHRISTENDOM." They held almost nothing in common with The Churches of Christ: the Stoneites rejected the Atonement. The Churches of Christ were essentially the same after the Disciples sowed discord among most DISCIPLES by introducing instruments. The discorders got their way but the Churches of Christ were not part of their denomination.

The NACC or Christian Church did not begin to SECT OUT of the Disciples until 1927 and were not counted separately until 1971: that was the time they began their hostile attack: then and now they promote UNITY MEETINGS meaning that YOU have to Conform or Confirm to OUR views before you can be one of US. Leroy Garrett was a fundamentaly promoter of the Stone-Campbell REunion and that was about the worst deliberatel lie promotedby the NACC and just a handfull of DUPES they BOUGHT by flattery.

Here is what the CHRISTIAN CHURCHES were promoting and explains why the Churches of Christ were more closely aligned with the Baptists than wikth the Christian Churches.

[linked image]

When someone says that MOST churches of Christ in Australia are INSTRUMENTAL what the persom means is "at least in my little area." A church of Christ with instruments belongsto the denomination Christian Church-Churches of Christ. They adopted Churches of Christ instead of their title The Church of Christ undoubdetly to sow confusion.

Most of the effort to plant non-instrumental churches of Christ began in about 1937. When the first missionaries went there the CoC was a denomination.

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: You Are Correct: Sin Will Always Be Sin

September 6 2011, 4:04 PM 

Didn't Dave favor us with his vain, repetitious bit of "You're a sinner!" some months ago? Could it be that he's starting it all over again? Oh, the originality! wink.gif

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Sin Will Always Be Sin

September 6 2011, 4:42 PM 

A cappella singing with two-, three-, or four-part harmony does not alter the New Testament, because Christ never addressed harmony in singing. Had Christ said, "Praise Me by singing in unison" or "Praise Me with four-part harmony," then to sing otherwise would have been to defy His Word. Since Christ through Paul only said to sing and make melody in the heart, then harmony is not a factor; neither is volume or tempo, because Christ never addressed those. Had Christ said, "Praise Me with music," then we would have had carte blanche to praise Him with whatever kinds of music (vocal and/or instrumental) we desired. Instead, Christ limited us to singing and making melody in the heart. If we ADD instruments, it's another kind of music Christ did not authorize. He need not condemn IM with words; His directives are sufficient to limit us, for we may not override His explicit directives. Those who claim that IM is fine because it "accompanies" or "enhances" the singing do speak where Christ has not spoken.

What about the good-ole PA systems that some folks always like to bring up? What about those as well as rest rooms, electricity, air conditioning, heating, kitchens, podiums, pews, song books, carpets, drapes, and a thousand other non-essentials that are in virtually all churches? Having any or all of those items does NOT violate the New Testament, because Christ never addressed any of them. None of those items clash or defy the Gospel or any of Christ's explicit directives. Yet many people would rather yield to their worldly desires; hence, they insist on mixing, comparing, and confusing doctrinal issues (which Christ explicitly addressed in the New Testament) with non-essential issues (which Christ never addressed).

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ken sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)


September 7 2011, 3:07 PM 

if you are speaking to a crowd you bump up the volume. Your voice has a built in amplifier and speaker.
The people sat on a hill to listen to Jesus: a natural theater

When Paul spoke in a forum or Greek theater the acoustics were designed so that people could hear the message..
Resounding bronze gongs were vases set at locations and they actually amplified the sound.

Singing teams would be like many sounding brass singing a DIFFERENT tune to make certain that your emotion got frazzled but you were not educated.

People who toss up PA systems simply do not and probably cannot understand that the church is A School of the Word: anything that makes the words clear throughout a building (can't worship but you can educate) does not upset simple simon's common sense.

If on the other hand, you make loud instrumental noise you intend that the performer and not Jesus be heard.

The task is EDUCATION: I have posted three quick studies (for students only) and the Bible proves that anyone wanting to act up or perform is self seeking.

Violent Men take the Kingdom of Violence: instruments are machines for doing WORK.
The Kingdom does not come with OBSERVATIONS: surprise scholars: that means religious OBSERVATIONS.
We are saved by grace through faith INSTEAD of WORKS: works are preaching, entertainment singing, playing instruments, dancing, drama.

Instruments ARE radically condemned by the Prophets and Apostles: If you cannot read the text and define the words then maybe you HAVE predestinated yourselves to burn to the sound of wind, string and percussion instrument says Christ in Spirit in Isaiah 30.

It is true, alas, God hath not said, thou shalt not launch yourself alive (now) into the lake of fire.

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(no login)

Re: Sin Will Always Be Sin

September 7 2011, 5:23 PM 

Dr. Crump, if we use your logic, God did address singing but God did not mention anything about adding complex harmony to the songs. We are to merely "sing". Therefore, we may sing but to add two-, three-, or four-part harmony is not authorized by God.

But wait, Dr. Crump wants to include the two-, three-, or four-part harmony. You now change your logic in an attempt to justify your traditions. Dr. Crump used the "God didn't say not to" logic.

In my opinion, the "singing" is accomplished whether we use IM and/or two-, three-, or four-part harmony. That's the bottom line. I feel this argument is much to do about nothing. JMHO

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)


September 7 2011, 8:12 PM 

If you preach a sermon on your favorite outline.
You are speaking for the purpose of Teaching them.

If Rick Atchley sends his full orchestra with instruments and lots of falsetto (mouring the loss he he!)

You will still be preaching your favorite sermon outline.

Now, lets say absolutely that the command is

Rom 15: That which is writteen for our lerning
Eph 5 The Will of God, or the Spirit or the Word (John 6:63)
Eph 3 The WORD of Christ.

Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs are"that which is written for our learning."

Now, Tricky Ricky has as much right to turn his tricks on route 66 to silence YOUR mouth ans you have the right to silence the mouth of Jesus by preaching OR playing instruments.

You can teach with singing although the word means to speak or cantillate. However, you can only HINDER teaching by playing instruments.

Now try real hard: Ekklesia or Synagogue is a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and apostles. If you can't define "church" I submit that you are not in Jesus Christ.

If you do not know the meaning of DISCIPLE then I submit that you cannot possibley be a Christian: Jesus' CENI was to command to be taught what HE commanded to be taught and that extended until He returns again.

If I put a drop of black acid into a glass of pure white milk, it IS NO LONGER called milk but dilute ACID.

You don't know of any preacher or "scholar" promoting music who has made a similar study of the UNIVERSAL command to READ or SPEAK. "Melody as tunefulness belongs to the 19th century."

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Dr. Bill Crump
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Re: Sin Will Always Be Sin

September 7 2011, 9:19 PM 

We need not belabor the point. It is simple enough to those who are not in rebellion. God addressed vocal music, which is singing. He did NOT ADD instrumental music, which is a DIFFERENT KIND of music. God did not specify the WAY TO SING, although we know there are several ways--loudly, softly, fast, slow, with harmony or in unison. Therefore, the volume, tempo, and harmony/unison are of our choosing. The KIND of music we use is NOT of our own choosing. We are limited only to singing, because God only specified singing. Had God addressed volume, tempo, and harmony/unison, we would have been bound by whatever restrictions God had imposed there.

It's quite simple enough. Don't be in rebellion. Now let's move on.

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(no login)

Everything is VERY Clear

September 7 2011, 9:52 AM 

William Crump said "Since Christ through Paul only said to sing..."

Paul NEVER said to ONLY sing, but to sing. Nice play on words William. When you are looking to prove your point without the backing of the Scriptures you have to resort to such devious tactics.

William also said "What about those as well as rest rooms, electricity, air conditioning, heating, kitchens, podiums, pews, song books, carpets, drapes, and a thousand other non-essentials that are in virtually all churches? Having any or all of those items does NOT violate the New Testament, because Christ never addressed any of them. None of those items clash or defy the Gospel or any of Christ's explicit directives."

Correct, and instruments played to aid the singing ALSO do not clash or defy the Gospel or any of Christ's explicit directives. With or without the instruments, the directive of singing is still accomplished.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Nebulous and Fallacious Logic (Dave's)

September 8 2011, 1:10 AM 

Dave's Declarative Statement:
  1. Blowing the trumpet (or beating the drums) unto the Lord aids (enhances) the singing.
  2. Blowing the trumpet (or beating the drums) unto the Lord does not clash or defy the gospel or any of Christ's explicit directives.
  3. Therefore, while blowing or not blowing the trumpet (or beating or not beating the drums) unto the Lord, the directive of singing is still accomplished.
Following Dave's Declaration:
  1. Burning incense unto the Lord aids (makes more meaningful) the singing.
  2. Burning incense unto the Lord does not clash or defy the gospel or any of Christ's explicit directives.
  3. Therefore, with or without burning incense, the directive of singing is still accomplished.
Needless to say, we know Dave's PREFERENCE. [BTW, the expressions "preferences" and "traditions" are Dave's favorite defense mechanisms when presenting his LOGIC as originating from God.]

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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

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The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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5 Godly Elders
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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