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Dave
(no login)
130.127.43.117

The Same Adherence?

September 7 2011, 10:33 AM 

Two commands....
1)You shall not kill
2)Sing

Number one is definitive.....no gray areas.
Number two is not meant to be as definitive as number 1. It is general and is not prohibitive of aids (instruments of music) to accompany the singing. To sing with an instrument to accompany the singing is just that....SINGING WHILE playing an instrument to accompany the singing. The singing is accomplished with a capella or instruments of music to AID the singing.
END OF STORY!


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

NO!!! The Command or Directive Is...

September 8 2011, 1:55 AM 

Dave,

Your premise above is erroneous. So, let the Scripture teach you the truth:

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Col. 3:16)

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" (Eph. 5:19)

COMMAND: Let the word of Christ indwell; teach and admonish one another.

MEDIUM/METHOD: Speaking or singing (either way, essentially reciting)

OBJECT: Psalms, hymns, spiritual songs -- the word of Christ.

MECHANICAL MUSIC is scripturally displaced (has no place) in the assembly of saints:

1. Operating the musical machinery is not a command.
2. It is not a method or a medium to speak the truth.
3. It is an object (inanimate, lifeless) that is not and cannot convey the truth.





 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.14.139

Re: NO!!! The Command or Directive Is...

September 8 2011, 9:56 AM 

Dave doesn't seem to realize that the New Testament mentions NOTHING about "aiding," "enchancing," or "accompaning" the singing with any other kinds of music. Only man takes it upon himself to ASSUME that he can go beyond the New Testament and ADD other kinds of music to "aid," "enhance," and "accompany" the singing. When man does that, he speaks where the New Testament does not.

I'll spell it all out again for those who were too obstinate to get it the first time. Volume, tempo, pitch, and unison/harmony are non-issues, because Jesus never addressed them. Whenever we sing, there must be volume (loud or soft), tempo (fast, medium, or slow), and pitch (where in the vocal range to begin singing). Singing may be in unison or in harmony. Since Jesus addressed NONE of those issues, we have the freedom to use them with our singing as we see fit. If people are going to make an issue out of "complex" harmony, they must also deal with volume, tempo, and pitch, because they form the basic elements of singing.

PA systems, Dave's favorite (and fallacious) argument is also a non-issue, because Jesus also never addressed them. PA systems only amplify sound that originates elsewhere, nothing more.

On the other hand, we do NOT have the freedom to use musical instruments, because Jesus authorized/specified singing. If we ADD instrumental music to the vocal music, we ADD another kind of music that Jesus did not authorize/specify. Again, those who ADD IM speak where the New Testament does not.

Don't be obstinate. Stick with a cappella singing and you'll do well.

 
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JimmyJoe
(no login)
76.22.249.74

Re: No!!! The Command or Directive Is...

September 8 2011, 5:29 PM 

I enjoy watching people use the old pick and choose theology of scripture to prove their point. As I used to hear years ago, give me the chapter and verse that proves the two verses you picked pertain to a worship service. As I have read the entire chapters that contain said verses, my personal impression is that they pertain to how we live our daily lives. Personally I think Col.3:12-14 are some pretty important verses. Actually, you don't have to prove anything to me as I have yet to see anyone on this site change their mind about what they personally believe. Therefore, no rebuttal is necessary.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: No!!! The Command or Directive Is...

September 9 2011, 5:20 AM 

I concur. There is no question whatsoever that every Christian is responsible for his own life and soul whether ALONE or in A GATHERING OF SAINTS.

"Teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER" suggests to me that an ASSEMBLY of saints may be involved. [How did the expression "worship service" originate, anyway? Heb. 10:25 simply mentions -- "not forsaking the ASSEMBLING of ourselves together ... exhorting one another."]

But there are other options, especially when it is not so inconvenient as in facilitating the "teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER" by conference call or by making hundreds of individual phone calls. [Of course, I'm being facetious. happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif ]

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

You are Fighting a Losing Battle

September 8 2011, 2:31 AM 


Donnie said "MECHANICAL MUSIC is scripturally displaced (has no place) in the assembly of saints:..."

DISPLACED is it now?
Not WRONG now, but DISPLACED according to the gospel of Donnie.

1. Operating the musical machinery is not a command. NEITHER....is operating a PA. Both the PA and musical instruments can aid the singing.
2. It (musical instruments) is not a method or a medium to speak the truth. No, it just AIDS the method of singing.
3. It (musical instruments) is an object (inanimate, lifeless) that is not and cannot convey the truth. Vocal singing can be lifeless too if the heart and spirit are not there. Anyone can sing but just go through the motions. Again, the instrument is used to aid the singing and the spirit of the words from the person can be acceptable worship to God.

Donnie, you can't win here. It is not possible.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
98.87.219.160

Re: You are Fighting a Losing Battle

September 8 2011, 10:25 PM 

"You Are Fighting a Losing Battle." We've seen those words from Dave on many occasions in the past, yet Dave is still fighting his own battle with this site--and still losing as usual.

So what else is new?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

You Are Fighting the Scripture and the Church

September 9 2011, 5:31 AM 

Dave,

No, I am not fighting a losing battle.

You are. You are the one going against the grain. The church of which you claim to be a member does not indulge in the operation of mechanical music in the assembly -- like it or not.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.7.127

Re: You Are Fighting the Scripture and the Church

September 9 2011, 10:51 AM 

Yes, Dave is fighting a desperate battle with this site, a battle he will never win. The only way Dave could ever "win" would be to convince this site to believe as he does, embrace the Change Movement, and endorse musical instruments in worship. That will never happen, of course, and Dave actually knows that. But tilting at the proverbial windmills as Don Quixote did keeps Dave busy here and out of trouble elsewhere. wink.gif

 
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R*
(no login)
98.81.71.171

180 Degrees Out of Phase

September 9 2011, 2:17 PM 

[linked image]


Dr. Crump, Ken, and Donnie, I think y'all are just plain wrong on the IM issue. However, we will never change the minds of each other.

Thanks to all for a "civil discussion".

 
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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: 180 Degrees Out of Phase

September 9 2011, 8:36 PM 

Fine. You certainly are entitled to that viewpoint.

But my conscience is clear. The Scripture is on my side. The church of Christ is on my side. The Scripture is on the side of 99.95% (39,980 / 40,000 of the congregations) of the Lord's body worldwide.

The New Testament church of the first century did not use man-made musical objects, considering the fact that many, many instrumental devices have been invented and around for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Well, now, it's really virtually 100% because the few (out of 40,000) congregations that operate inanimate, lifeless musical objects in their assemblies have been transformed by their leaders either into surrogates of the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church or into Community Church-ism.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.248.75

Re: 180 Degrees Out of Phase

September 9 2011, 11:24 PM 

Throwing perfume on a skunk will not eliminate its underlying stink. Likewise, throwing the name "church of Christ" on a congregation that embraces instrumental music will not eliminate the underlying stink of that congregation's denominational orientation.

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Indeed

September 9 2011, 10:58 PM 

I'll spell it all out again for those who were too obstinate to get it the first time. Volume, tempo, pitch, and unison/harmony and instruments of music to AID the singing are non-issues, because Jesus never addressed them. Singing may be in unison or in harmony. Since Jesus addressed NONE of those issues, anyone who PREFERS, has the freedom to use them as they see fit.

It's ok to use cocaine since God didn't say not to, William Crump's favorite (and fallacious) argument, is another of his false teachings, because Jesus DOES tell in 1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

On the other hand, those who prefer to.....do have the freedom to use musical instruments, because Jesus authorized/specified singing. Musical instruments DO NOT prohibit nor preclude the singing....it only AIDS the singing. The instrumental music AIDS and does not prohibit, in any way, the vocal music. Again, those who spell out IM as wrong and sinful speak where the New Testament does not. The NT in Galatians spell out the sins of the flesh. Unfortunately for those who still want to rewrite the Word of God, instrumental music isn't on that list.

Again, this site is run by those who continue to teach falsely and wish only to promote their preferences. They do not have the backing of the scriptures to show that what they espouse is true. It has been proven true many times already.


 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.248.248

Re: Indeed

September 10 2011, 12:23 AM 

Dave, we've been over this numerous times before, son. Starting the arguments AGAIN won't change anyone's minds, especially yours. It just perpetuates the Fruity Loop. If that's what turns you on, then by all means, rave on, son.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Deception Does Not Work

September 10 2011, 12:39 AM 

Dave will continue to argue "till death do us part" that the church of Christ teaches falsely since it does not operate mechanical music in the assembly.

STOP IT!!!!! Your own congregation does not practice instrumental music. And you know it. Please, please do not deceive the world by saying that your congregation is teaching falsely.

Your logic does not compute.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.13.85

Re: Deception Does Not Work

September 10 2011, 12:58 AM 

I believe we're all in agreement that Dave is really not happy in the church of Christ. With his strong denominational sympathies, he would be much happier with the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ. There, he wouldn't need to sow discord as he does in the church of Christ. Therefore, it's quite clear that Dave does not belong in the church of Christ.

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Sin is Still Always Sin

September 12 2011, 12:14 AM 

The last few responses are what Donnie and William resort to when they can't give factual, Scriptural, and logical answers. Donnie, I didn't say that my congregation is teaching falsely, you made that statement. If you aren't a lawyer, you could be and perhaps should switch career fields. Bad lawyers do make money.
Actually Donnie, you are the one who said that YOUR congregation and its leaders from Madison are teaching and deceiving others.
Donnie, the only one who looks bad here is you. Not Madison....not Jesus....not God.....it is YOU who will take the knock.

Many denominations and religious factions have started because men didn't like what God said, so they made the Word comply to what they wanted.
You and the the others who support this evil and wretched site obviously continue to show ongoing discontent for the churches of Christ and the way they are run by the leadership. There are solutions:
1) LEAVE!
2) Start your own church!
3) Be happy and quit the slandering (shut your mouth)
4) This is related to #3....if you do choose #3 you need to repent first.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Fallacious Logic Is Always Fallacious

September 12 2011, 12:54 AM 

Dave,

Speaking of facts, you're one to reject them.

When are you going to accept the fact that the church of Christ does not indulge in blowing the trumpet (operating musical devices) unto the Lord?

Your congregation is one of those in the church of Christ, the Lord's body, that does not operate mechanical music in the assembly.

On the other hand, you're one in your own congregation and in the body of Christ who espouses that operating musical objects (trumpet, piano, guitar, sackbut, etc.) is God-directed and authorized.

Needless to say that you are going against the grain.

I do not look bad here, Dave. Why not? Because I agree with what the Scripture teaches and what THE church of Christ the Lord believes as the Scripture teaches.

What else is there to say about that? No matter how you slice it, the church of Christ does not practice what Dave preaches -- soft piano music enhances "worship."

I agree with you completely [your quote]: "Many denominations and religious factions have started because men didn't like what God said, so they made the Word comply to what they wanted."

The church of Christ (of which you are a member) is only following God's truth. The change agents are the ones who want the church of Christ Jesus to be and become a denomination by changing its beliefs and practices.

If denominationalism or division really bothers you, then, it should be your responsibility to protest them and their schemes.

It is not too late for you to make the 180-turn and return to what the church of Christ believes and practices in this regard.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
207.65.198.144

Good advice, Dave, that's what all of we ROBBED people said

September 12 2011, 12:32 PM 

If the "Eldership in Exile" had not infiltrated Madison and just been minimally ethical, moral and Christian they would have followed Dave's advice.

There are solutions:
1) LEAVE!
2) Start your own church!
3) Be happy and quit the clapping, gyrating, ginging your own songs. (shut your sissy mouth)
4) This is related to #3....if Purpose Driven Cult do choose #3 Madison's need to repent first.


Furthermore, Dave, Madison and all of the agents of the NACC, cannot repent and that is why they -- as recorded in The Book of Enoch -- try to SEDUCE others into their "fallen and cannot get up blasphemy."

1. If you say that God commanded instruments in the congregation of God's people.
2. And Christ said that God did NOT command the monarchy but abandoned them to their Egyptian/Babylonianism
3. Then Christ The Holy Spirit in Jeremiah 23 says that you have blasphemed
4. And there can never be any repentance.

http://www.piney.com/Blasphemy.Against.The.Holy.Spirit.html

Those who say that Christ in the wilderness did not outlaw "vocal or instrumental praise" including high-sounding rhetoric, are just pathetically ignorant but cannot repent: repentance requires an IQ at least as big as the length of your shoe lace.

Those who say that Jesus didn't EXAMPLE that when He READ and TAUGHT but went out to preach, cannot read: Jesus says that doctors of the Law "take away the key to knowledge." That includes WITCHDOCTORS or Sorcerers which all of the Bible outlaw from the assembly and consigns them all to be CAST ALIVE into the Lake of Fire. I believe the CCM is the screechy wailing of lost souls. Real men cannot possibley do that.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Sophis-tês , ou, ho, master of one's craft, adept, expert, of diviners, Hdt.2.49; of poets, meletan sophistais prosbalon Pi.I.5(4).28 , cf. Cratin.2; of musicians, sophistês . . parapaiôn chelun (harp) A.Fr.314 , cf. Eup.447, Pl.Com. 140; sophistêi Thrêiki (sc. Thamyris) E.Rh.924, cf. Ath.14.632c: with mod

II. from late v B.C., a Sophist, i.e. one who gave lessons in grammar, rhetoric, politics, mathematics, for money, such as Prodicus, Gorgias, Protagoras, a quibbler, cheat, a RHETORICIAN as the primary meaning of a HYPOCRITE.

hoi s. tn hiern meln A sophist, serpent, makes MUSICAL MELODY with a congregation AS a harp and cannot grasp that IN THE HEART is a place.


Hieron Melon is the musical melody in the places dedicatged to God. Jesus said that God HIDES Himself from the wise or Sophists. Sophists are slick rhetoricians, clergy singers and instrument players. This was the MARK in the NACC proof text of the GOATS [cappellas] being burned up in fire. 2 Chronicles 29

The direct command which never changed even in the "musical" passages was to PREACH the word by READING the Word each REST DAY.

For those God does not allow to read BLACK text on BROWN paper, maybe they should just MAKE their MARK since the BEAST that the holy whore (Rev 17) is "lusted after fruits" who perform as SORCERERS: speakers, singers, instrument players. Amos called the musicians in the place dedicated to God "catamites". Since John 1n Rev 18 calls them SORCERERS ALSO.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


If you deny that, it is proof that God has removed the speakers, singers, instrument players, grinders (prostitutes) and the CANDLES from your "theater for holy entertainment."







 
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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)
74.179.211.248

Re: Sin is Still Always Sin

September 12 2011, 2:51 PM 

Dave wrote: "Many denominations and religious factions have started because men didn't like what God said, so they made the Word comply to what they wanted...LEAVE!...Start your own church!"

Yes, demonimations were started and embraced musical instruments, because they were not content with the words of the New Testament, which simply said to sing and make melody in their hearts. Since Dave is not happy in the a cappella church of Christ, then he should take his own advice: LEAVE AND START YOUR OWN CHURCH.

What's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

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The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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