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A Summary Of What One Will Find Here

September 22 2011 at 11:23 PM
Sonny Elliot  (no login)
from IP address

If an individual has been searching for truth, he or she has come to the right place by discovering the concerned members of the Madison Church of Christ internet page. One will learn the following unequivocal truths while visiting and reading:

"Change Agents" are "sinful." Churches of Christ without them are both united and growing, and those with them are divided and dying.

Singing with music is "sinful" except when people in the Old Testament did it for several hundred years, but God then abruptly changed his mind, which is obviously communicated in the New Testament.

Celebrating birthdays is "sinful" in a church building but not in a home with Christians gathered, unless they worship and then even a closing prayer would not save you. However, choruses from Christian colleges and universities can sing at a church assembly at a building on a Sunday night after a dismissal prayer. God leaves the building after the prayer as the singing is not worship but entertainment.

Maybe singing happy birthday at a potluck would be okay Brother Crump?

God cannot let children clap while singing slide. It cannot slide because it - yes - clapping - is "sinful," and those children are in darkness and despair. God did not call clapping in the Old Testament a sin, but understand that He abruptly changed his mind by not mentioning it in the New Testament, which "clearly and unequivocally" conveys that it is now "sinful."

Praise Teams are "sinful." There is actually some confusion in the ranks of ultra-conservatism on this one here at Concerned Members, as it was expressed about a year ago by Brother Ken Sublett here at CM that it is okay for four men at the Inner-City Church of Christ in Tennessee to stand and sing with mics. So there is an exception for this congregation.

(Let the attacks begin...)
We here at Concerned Members will continue to be consistent and unwaivering in our stand for the truth (our version).

-Sonny Elliot

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

A Summary in Response

September 23 2011, 3:57 AM 

The brief responses below are numbered in the order of statements expressed by Sonny Elliott:
  1. ConcernedMembers was initiated by the owners upon/while witnessing the division in progress at the Madison congregation before their very own eyes. The change agents in the brotherhood had already accomplished their mission in transforming other mega churches in the brotherhood into Community Church-ism -- Oaks Hills Church [formerly "of Christ"] and The Hills Church (formerly Richland Hills Church of Christ), to list a couple of the mega churches. Madison, another mega church, was going to be their next victim. There were actually "church leaders" who were sent to observe and learn about Rick Warren's Saddleback Community Church in CA. They came back and implemented some of the culture-driven methodologies (actually SCHEMES) for numerical church growth. This was approved by the slim majority of the elders (8 of 15) at that time -- and sadly, the voice of the minority of 7 elders did not count. The elders were divided -- a fact which the author of this thread [Sonny] considers irrelevant and insignificant. Many elders at that time resigned or LEFT. And so was the membership divided -- half of the members left to seek fellowship elsewhere. (Reasons for this sad and unfortunate division have already been explained numerous times. The introduction of musical instruments into the assembly at Madison remains to be seen.)

    It's Sonny's right to ignore "the truth" about what's really happened at Madison.

  2. It is not surprising anymore that Sonny loves and appreciates the efforts of the change agents operating in the brotherhood -- interfering with the affairs of peaceful and once-peaceful congregations. Madison was a peaceful and united congregation. Sonny is in denial that the change agents caused the division at Madison; he believes that the division was caused either by some unknown factors or by a website. Caused by a website? Think again!

  3. Let's remind Sonny that playing musical instruments "unto the Lord" was never commanded or directed by God even in the Old Testament. God never changed His mind regarding that He never directed in the first place. The apostles were also "smart" enough not to outsmart God who has NEVER directed His people to play mechanical music devices in the assembly. Period. So, the New Testament Christians of the first century DID NOT DO IT. The New Testament Christians of the 21st century are not about to do that, either. (I'm glad that Sonny mentioned "people in the Old Testament" as Nebucchadnezzar did so with "the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of music" while they worshipped the golden image [Daniel 3].)

  4. Celebrating birthdays is "sinful" -- where did you get that? Remember, contributors here exercise their freedom of speech or opinion. CM has its concerns about the evil schemes of the change agents.

  5. Same as 4: Celebrating birthdays is "sinful" -- where did you get that? Remember, contributors here exercise their freedom of speech or opinion. CM has its concerns about the evil schemes of the change agents.

  6. Children can clap, of course, and it is not an issue. Right, just ignore the fact that there are those in a non-clapping congregation [vs. churches in which clapping is a normal activity] who are offended by the noise. Poor senior citizens who jump out of their skin when they hear the "thunder." But members of the church should be more considerate of their fellow members in regard to the matter. It's funny, Sonny, that there are those adults who didn't clap in their early adult Christian years who NOW resort or revert to their newly found clapping activity. Oh, well, I can't help but think of what's known as "second childhood."

  7. The "Praise Team." The acquired "Baptist Choir" or the Catholic "Boys Choir" or the "Mormon Tabernacle Choir." This has been discussed to death [and, sorry, I'm short of time]. But that's how the mega churches (Oak Hills, Richland Hills, etc.) started out their venture into the Community Church transformation. And what followed the "Praise Team"? Guess!!! Instrumental music!!! Let's wait and see what happens at Madison next. The Praise Team was a major factor in the division, remember?

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: A Summary in Response

September 23 2011, 10:15 AM 

I see that Sonny has resurrected the "birthdays" bit yet again. I gather that topic has been eating at him for months. There hasn't been a "discussion" about birthdays here in months, yet Sonny STILL fixates on that topic. WOW! He's like a little mutt that attacks the mail carrier's leg and just won't let go. "YIP-YIP-YAP-YAP--(CHOMP)!!" wink.gif

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(no login)

A Brief Comment

September 23 2011, 9:15 AM 

Post this if you care, or delete this post as you have with many of my recent attempts at posting.

Donnie, all of your odious 7 points comes down to your comment in #6. You said "It's funny, Sonny, that there are those adults who didn't clap in their early adult Christian years who NOW resort or revert to their newly found clapping activity. Oh, well, I can't help but think of what's known as "second childhood.""

Donnie, again, your opinion or interpretation is irrelevant because of your immaturity in responding. "Second childhood," indeed! Donnie, the fact is with all that I have seen of you here at concernedmembers and in the past with can't say you are acting out your second childhood....for you have never left your first one.

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: A Brief Comment

September 23 2011, 10:29 AM 

I wondered why we hadn't heard much from Dave. Now we know why. Dave says he had made "many" recent attempts to post. The content was evidently too malicious; otherwise they would have been accepted. Since Dave's present post features his usual insults, I can imagine that his deleted posts were indeed un-Christ-like.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Rhythmic Clapping -- Is That It?

September 23 2011, 11:21 AM 


I do not recall deleting "many" of your "recent attempts at posting." Instead, I post your messages so that readers will get to know better the real you and your demeanor, as well as your stance on a number of issues that are not representative of the church of which you claim to be a member. But just in case it is true that "many" of your messages have not been published, feel free to append them below -- I know you keep copies of your messages.

Evidently, you misunderstood the point regarding adult members who are just now experiencing the joy of "second childhood" -- the "programmed, rhythmic joy" of hand clapping in a non-clapping congregation. [LOL ... you don't have to wait until "worship" time to do this. Have you tried doing it in the mall or even in the privacy of your own home?]

It's fine by me if:

        (a) rhythmic, programmed joy of handclapping
                ---------------- VERSUS ----------------
        (b) the natural, spontaneous expression of real joy

.. is the only item you're prepared to discuss at the moment.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

This site always corrects lies and sorcery (instrumental praise)

September 23 2011, 2:16 PM 

Singing with music is "sinful" except when people in the Old Testament did it for several hundred years, but God then abruptly changed his mind, which is obviously communicated in the New Testament.

Praise Teams are "sinful." There is actually some confusion in the ranks of ultra-conservatism on this one here at Concerned Members, as it was expressed about a year ago by Brother Ken Sublett here at CM that it is okay for four men at the Inner-City Church of Christ in Tennessee to stand and sing with mics. So there is an exception for this congregation.

That's a lie: God said that the imagination of man is only evil continually. I have never said aything about an Inner-City Church of Christ in Tennessee."

Maybe I was giving consent to 4 males making love to their phallic symbols in a GAY CLUB making "symphony" be forcing all of the bodies to gyrate in harmony with the pesudo-goddesses. She is the "Babylon mother of harlots" in Rev 17, using lusted after "fruits" in Revelation 18 as speakers, singers and instrument players DECLARED by Christ to be SORCERERS who will be (have been) cast alive into the lake of fire. You remember the ACU professor calling for God's fire to fall as well as the ZOE group: the performing INCENTER or song starter is defined as the IGNIS or fire starter.

Hand Clapping is pseudo body drumming or beating on the tabret another name for hell. It is ALWAYS orchestrate by the CLAPPERS and the intention is to AFFIRM the worship minister and as a violent act of boasting superiority that WE ARE NOT IN CHARGE--YOU ARE THE LOOSERS.

Jesus said that the kingdom does not come with OBSERVATION because it is IN YOU. No PhDuh or preacher grasps that Jesus said "the kingdom of God will not come to YOUR religious obsservations. Jesus defined these as laded burdens (songs) imposed by burden laders. Paul says that they are the product of those STRONGLY DECEIVED by God Himself and the imposed Lying Wonders are "religious services using the hypocritic arts claiming that they come from God." Since they do not, Christ in Jeremiah 23 says that you BLASPHEME the Holy Spirit (Christ).

The word "clap" as condemned in the Hebrew and Greek was to SHOW CONTEMPT for the speaker. In Hebrew the word "clap" also means "vomit. "

"CLAQUE, an organized body of persons who, either for hire or other motives, band together to applaud or deride a performance and thereby attempt to influence the audience.

"Historically the claque (Fr. claquer, "to clap") is a very old institution, dating back to the performance in the theatre of Dionysus at Athens. Menander was frequently defeated by Philemon in the comedy competitions (Call them sermons), not by virtue of any superiority in the latter's plays but because

Philemon swayed the decision of the judges by infiltrating the audience with claques.

Under the Roman empire claques were common in the theatres and law courts, and flatterers and legacy hunters would often serve as claqueurs at private performances sponsored by wealthy patrons of the arts. The emperor Nero established a school of applause (Note: He had no real talent and he would burn down the old to establish the new while playing his harp) and was followed on his concert tours by a claque of 5,000 knights and soldiers. In France during the 18th century the chevalier de la Morliere and the poetaster Dorat organized claques to support plays by themselves and others.

On the extreme other hand, the Amen is from the Hebrew which does not participate in "the idolatry of talent" but first understands and then quietly endorses the message and is a pledge to "turn to the right." None of this is present in the applause for human talent:

Amen (h543) aw-mane'; from 539; sure; abstr. faithfulness; adv. truly: - Amen, so be it, truth.

Aman (h539) aw-man'; a prim. root; prop. to build up or support; to foster as a parent or nurse; fig. to render (or be) firm or faithful, to trust or believe,

to be permanent or quiet; morally to be true or certain; once (Isa. 30:21; by interchange for 541) to go to the right hand: - hence assurance, believe, bring up, establish, be faithful (of long continuance, stedfast, sure, surely, trusty, verified), nurseing father, put trust, turn to the right.

Justin Martyr Wrote:

Ye who come to the evil day, who are approaching, and who hold to false Sabbaths; who lie on beds of ivory, and are at ease upon their couches; who eat the lambs out of the flock, and the sucking calves out of the midst of the herd;

who applaud at the sound of the musical instruments; they reckon them as stable, and not as fleeting,

who drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments, but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph.

Wherefore now they shall be captives, among the first of the nobles who are carried away; and the house of evil-doers shall be removed, and the neighing of horses shall be taken away from Ephraim.'

Neither Sonny, most preachers and NO "scholars" who have stolen the Bible Colleges can answer:

What is a Disciple?
What does a Disciple do when they attend an assembly?
What is the directly commanded and exclusive teaching resource?

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Sep 23, 2011 2:40 PM

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(no login)

Re: This site always corrects lies and sorcery (instrumental praise)

September 25 2011, 2:25 AM 

Ken, this is the definition of "clap" today.

to strike the palms of (one's hands) against one another resoundingly, and usually repeatedly, especially to express approval: She clapped her hands in appreciation.


Why would clapping be a bad thing today?

Surely, you have clapped your hands in approval of something....well maybe not. [linked image] happy.gif

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

hand clapping

September 25 2011, 5:38 PM 

Hand clapping has replaced the amen as showing of favor.

It would be fine to applaud any person's achievement.

However, I remind you, that church is defined as Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness: it never had more than one driving purpose: the command was to REST, Read and rehearse the Word of God.

From the foundation of the world a priestly class has persecuted and murdered the prophetic class. The gody people obeyed The Book of the Covenant to keep from being executed for being ceremonially impure.

However, The Book of The Covenant from Abraham onward was taught for the ethical and moral accunts. Whether all true or not, epics have alsways been written to instill the difference between right and wrong and to treat others rightly.

Acceptance under the Law of Moses was to honor God and practice social justice.
A Jew or Gentile was ceremonially pure based on these principles; the Law hangs on...

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The command for the church was two (only) fold;

Baptize believers
and teach what Jesus commanded to be taught.
Only such disciples are true Christians.

Paul says that
We are washed with water
INTO the Word or discipleship to the Word.

The only reason for hand clapping as an ACT of worship (legalistic workd) is the creation of spiritual anxiety through religious rituals. People who fall into hand-clapping have fallen into a state which makes letting JESUS do the speaking when the elders teach that which has been taught.

That proves that there is no intention to be a Disciple by

1. REJECTING self pleasure which in the texts is created by all of the performing or hypocritic arts and crafts absolutely rejected from the prophets onward.

2. SPEAKING that which is written for our learning using ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH.


I'm sorry but I don't know or have read of a preacher or "scholar" at confiscated Christian colleges who know the plot of the Old and New Testament. People who INDUCE people into hand clapping have boasted that it is a first way to upset "comfort zones" where Jesus Died to create those comfort zones where HE presites. They say, we gonna clap Spite of Hell: they boast.

2Ki 21:3 For he built up again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed;
and he reared up altars for Baal, and made a grove, as did Ahab king of Israel;
and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.

"All these texts point, explicitly or implicitly, to the fact that the dance had a musical accompaniment. Even though the Bible makes no mention of it we must assume that the movements of the prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel were made with an accompaniment on certain musical instruments... There is an obvious satirical intent in the biblical story and we could find no better illustration of a similar attitude than a rather curious bas-relief in the Museo delle Terme in Rome which

derides a ceremony of Isis. In front of a row of images of the gods, men and women are dancing with grotesque contortions; their knees are all bent their heads thrown back and their arms upraised; they are holding castanets or the double flute.
An aged choirmaster and a group of spectators mark time by clapping their hands." ( de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, Doubleday, p. 242


Burlesque singing is the boon companion of drunkeness. A night spent over drink invites drunkeness, rouses lust, and is audacious in deeds of shame.

For if people occupy their time with pipes, and psalteries, and choirs, and dances, and Egyptian clapping of hands, and such disorderly frivolities, they become quite immodest and intractable, beat on cymbals, and drums, and make a noise on instruments of delusion." (Clement, Instructor, Eerdmans, p. 248)

There isn't an instrumental, pseudo Levite defender in books and sermons who does not lie about clement and all other recorded history. Why do they always lie? That's their job, that's what they do.

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(no login)

Behavior Unbecoming of Christ

September 23 2011, 4:27 PM 

Donnie said "But just in case it is true that "many" of your messages have not been published, feel free to append them below..."

Is that your Clinton-like way of saying 'I did it but you can't prove it so I didn't really do it!?!"

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Behavior Giving YOU the Benefit of the Doubt

September 23 2011, 4:49 PM 


You're apparently having a difficult time proving to me and to the readers that I have deleted MANY or any of your messages.

You've just begun your attempt at deviating from the issues at hand. What else is new?

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Dr. Bill Crump
(no login)

Re: Behavior Unbecoming of Christ

September 23 2011, 6:45 PM 

So Donnie gave Dave the opportunity to repost those "many" (or any) messages that were allegedly deleted, yet all Dave does is protest that his messages were allegedly deleted. If Dave won't repost them, it means one of two things: (1) Dave realizes his "many" (or any) messages were very un-Christ-like to begin with; OR (2) the messages never existed in the first place.

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(no login)

Again....and Again....Again

September 23 2011, 10:56 PM 

or #3) Donnie lied....Again... and Dave refuses to play the one of many games that is proposed by the immature supporters of this site.

Donnie said "I know you keep copies of your messages."

Donnie, why would you assume that I do that? Why would I want to do that? Do you do that? If you do, then you are on the same neurotic level that your friend William Crump is. If I did keep copies and posted them, why would you post them now if you didn't post them before? I am thinking that maybe you would keep copies of all you said because you have been down this road before for being questioned about what you actually said. Your credibility is nil Donnie.
So therefore we can word against your word?
THAT is what I am hoping for. Shall we revisit the fact that you and William Crump and Ken Sublett were the ones who were banned from Faithsite for "behavior unbecoming a Christian?" (This would be a good time to delete another of my posts and/or to inform the viewing audience of your being banned from Faithsite for the being 'global conservatives' theory again.)

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Stop Being Malicious!!!

September 24 2011, 12:01 AM 

Or, your malicious messages -- such as the one above -- will never be posted anymore.

I've withheld posting some of your messages before -- especially malicious ones. I have done the same to others' messages also. Moderators can see everything that has not yet been posted or published. YOU DO NOT; YOU CAN'T. Sorry to disappoint you with that info.

When a poster re-submits exactly the same message as the not-yet-published one, moderators can see both as unpublished. When one is exactly the same copy as the preceding one -- every word of it -- it proves that the author has saved it or put it on hold. You've been in that situation before.

Dave, you're simply running out of worthwhile topics to discuss.

Dave, I do not have to publish your messages replete with malice, self-righteous judgments and condemnation. Although I do so in order for the reader to know who you really are -- a very angry "Christian" [an elder/a former elder] who is putting the church of Christ Jesus to shame with some of his doctrinal views akin to the political views of a liberal, progressive left-wing politician.

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(no login)

Your Move

September 24 2011, 12:33 AM 

Donnie, on September 23 2011, 11:21 AM you said "I do not recall deleting "many" of your "recent attempts at posting.""

Now let us compare that to your last post when you said "I've withheld posting some of your messages before -- especially malicious ones."

Let's not get "malicious," as you say.....and lets not call it a lie......can we just call it "Clintonish?"

As long as you don't post them, know one will ever know if they are "malicious." You call them malicious, I call them truthful. Again, we go back to "interpretations"......don't we?
If you delete every single one of my posts from now to the day of our Beautiful Lord's Second Coming.....that would be fine....for I have done what I set out to do....expose how evil this site is. This site speaks of unity yet does everything BUT promote unity.

Besides Sonny, myself, R, Ray, and a few brave few you wonder why you don't have "many" responding to this posts and accusations against the churches of Christ?

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

God's Kingdom Shall Not Be Moved

September 24 2011, 12:55 AM 

No, sir, I am exposing YOU, along with the change agents -- sowers of discord. Sorry, you're NOT exposing how evil this site is. You're exposing yourself instead for who you really are ... that's been already explained above.

If there's anything "Clintonish" -- you represent such an ideation very well. I award you this, too -- you are one of the liberal, progressive left-wing proponents of instrumental music in THE "non-instrumental" body of Christ. Shame! Shame! Shame! But we know that you feel no shame for your words and actions.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Your Move

September 24 2011, 1:01 AM 

Did you say "accusations against the churches of Christ"? There's only one church that Christ established, remember?

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(no login)

Might Be Time for ANOTHER Deletion

September 24 2011, 1:59 AM 

Donnie, per your last post, you said "Did you say "accusations against the churches of Christ"? There's only one church that Christ established, remember?"

and the Scriptures say....

Romans 16:16
Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the CHURCHES of Christ send greetings.

Donnie, I could care less what you or any man believes....I hold close to what God says....again Donnie, you get what you deserve.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

There is no malice in discussing the church--you're safe

September 24 2011, 4:02 AM 

You've been drawn into a meaningful discussion, thank you. The strategy worked.

I know about the mention of the churches of Christ in Romans 16 -- congregations of the church that Christ established.

So, accusations. Were you then referring to accusations against the thousands of congregations of the church, meaning against EACH of the thousands of congregations?

Or, were you referring to accusations against the one body of Christ, His church?

Better yet, were you referring to accusations against the body of Christ that, according to your beloved change agents, is comprised of the fellowship of the religious denominations worldwide?

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(no login)

Another Notch

September 25 2011, 2:52 PM 

Donnie, if you were looking for a backfired.
Only thing it showed is that you do NOT know the Word of God. Post after post of yours have shown already that you take liberties and abuse the Word and now on top of everything else you show that you don't know the Word.

Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Donnie, you can't teach what you don't know.

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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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