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Donnie
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Fred Whaley's Liberal Slant--Part 3

October 19 2011, 11:47 PM 

Fred's responses to the following items are bolded or underscored:
  • 5. Grace is a constant topic; [Fred says: "Yes isn't this terrible"]

    Dr. Bill Crump has already responded to Fred's opinion -- cf. "Does Fred's church need to be quarantined?" (October 14 2011, 4:24 PM):

    Many believe that they are saved by "grace" alone and that's all--no repentance, no confession, no baptism, no obedience; all you have to do is "invite Jesus into your heart as your personal Savior" and BAM--you're "saved." That's what the original article meant by "grace" being a constant topic in the "changed" churches. True Christians believe that Christ imparts His grace of salvation unto us when we obey His commandments.


 
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Racnor
(no login)
98.81.118.217

Re: Fred Whaley's Liberal Slant--Part 3

October 20 2011, 6:09 PM 

Why would grace not be a constant topic? It's a gift from God. I'm leary of a Church that would shun grace. Can you preach too much about grace? Can you ever thank God enough for His grace? Is grace to be only whispered about in Church?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Fred Whaley's Liberal Slant--Part 3

October 20 2011, 8:56 PM 

No one will disagree with you there. Yes, we should talk about God's grace, but not only His grace, but also His love and mercy and kindness--constantly; etc.; etc.

Believe me. The church teaches about God's grace. That's why we emphasize God's plan of salvation for mankind. For in that plan and because of God's grace, He sent His Son who suffered and died for man. And God's plan instructs man how to have access to that grace, be saved and become His child.

Grace has been offered (is available) to everyone. Does everyone need it? Yes! Does everyone want it? NO. And that should explain why not everyone is saved in as much as God wants all men to repent and be saved.

So, in essence, God's grace is God's part. No man can change that. One can preach about God's grace constantly -- and there is nothing wrong with that at all. But the problem is when man tinkers with what belongs to God -- His grace -- for it is not broken.

Now, man's part. If God did not allow man either to accept His grace or to reject it, but just automatically gave it to everyone (like or not), then, logically speaking, all people would be saved. Is that the case? Of course, not.

Man must do his part -- be taught of God's grace, love and mercy; believe in God's Son, repent and be immersed with Christ in baptism IN ORDER TO HAVE ALL HIS PAST SINS REMITTED in the blood and be resurrected with Him to begin newness of life. Man is now a Christian and is admonished to continue that faith and be obedient to God's command and remain faithful to the end.

The change agents have God's grace confused with the famous biblical question: "How can I obtain God's grace; what must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30).

God's grace is there -- it is offered to everyone. Does it mean that all the billions of people in the world have received God's grace? I think not.

So, it is never God's fault that His grace is available. It is really man's freewill to accept it or reject it. But the Bible is clear and specific about how to receive that grace.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.72.228

Because he can't define grace

October 20 2011, 6:44 PM 

To the musicators, GRACE (Charis) was blue-eyed blond musical prostitutes in a brown-eyed world. They are also the musics (prostitutes) or Abaddon's musical worship team in Revelation 18. They are the "locusts" in John's term for anyone who read the literature of the time.

Grace or Charis in a musical-erotic sense "giving favors to another man."

The Bible reveals the ANTITHESIS which is NEVER the grace-centered concept of "we gonna sin and grace gonna cover us."

GRACE like WORD is another name for Jesus whom God made to be both Lord and Christ. The true GRACE is neither a religioous performer or a gender-confused male performer: Grace is.

[linked image]

Grace is Christ's power to be conformed to His will. To appeal to "grace" to let you violate the Bible, recorded history and deliberately sow discord means that you are not bright enough to be a disciple of Christ.


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.72.228

The Graces of the PAGAN Thesis of Grace

October 20 2011, 9:31 PM 

The context is Paul's rejecting the Jews demand that people be circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be fit for baptism.

The Law as distorted by the Monarchy regulated the Civil-Military-Clergy complex.

Instead, Grace as the name for Jesus as well as the Christian System came as a Divine favor (Grace).

It did not come from either the Jews or Gentiles. Those working really hard to BRING PEOPLE INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD are REPUDIATING Grace which came only through Jesus Christ: "Command them to teach what I have commanded to be taught."

In the Bible Grace is the power to MOVE OUT of the Charis or Charismatic worship of the Pagans.

Grace in the Greek and Neo-Pagan worship centers ANYTIME there are people performing musical or other rituals thinking that the power (chara) comes from THEM.

Kharis includes:

2. esp. in erotic sense, of favours granted (v. kharizomai 1.3), alokhou kharin idein Il.11.243, cf. A.Ag.1206: more freq. in pl., X.Hier.1.34, 7.6, etc.; bia d' epraxas kharitas peisas korn; Trag.Adesp.402; in full, kharites aphrodisin ertn


IV. gratification, delight, tinos in or from a thing, sumposiou Pi. O.7.5; wikas Id.O.10(11).78; hupnou kh. E.Or.159 (lyr.); even kh. gon Id.Supp.79 (lyr.); also concrete, of things, a delight, Pi.I.2.19 (pl.); tan botrud Dionusou kh. oinas E.Ba.535 (lyr.),

V. daimonn kharis homage due to them, their worship, majesty, A.Ag. 182 (lyr.); athiktn kh. ib.371 (lyr.); horkn E.Med.439 (lyr.).


The Levite (pattern) performed as SOOTHSAYERS with instrumental accompaniment
The "fruits" or speakers, singers and instrument pllayers performed as SORCERERS with instrumental accompaniment.

Of the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai Paul associated it with DEMON worship.

[linked image]

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

Get a Hobby That Will interest You

October 21 2011, 12:27 AM 

Donnie said "Song leading is quite simple. One can start the pitch of the song. He can actually sit down and sing with the congregation, and he can prepare to start the pitch of another song."

If, as you say, it is that simple, then why doesn't he sit down and sing with the congregation? When have you been to a service where this happened? You haven't....that is why. But you can rationalize your traditional song leader as he pumps his hand back and forth to get people in the 4/4 time and as he uses his pitch pipe to get the melody note at the perfect pitch so the basses will not be too low and the sopranos don't have to get too high.....an then you will put down the praise team and worship leader because YOU feel it is holy entertainment...instead of the worthy praise that God accepts more than the contemporary show time.

So stick your nose up in the air Donnie because the worship leader doesn't behave as you want, but know this....You do NOT know anyone's heart but your own. That smug attitude will get you into trouble with God quicker than anything that you can ever do.
So creep on over to the contemporary service so you can come back here and tell us what you believe isn't right with their service. Sooner or later Donnie it will come back and bite you.

 
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knthsublett@gmail.com
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
166.248.73.236

good point

October 21 2011, 2:23 PM 

The question should always be "WHAT IS?" without being legalistic and whining "Is this a salvation issue?" If not, don't bother the elders.

"The McClintock and Strong Cyclopedia not only speaks, in general terms, of 'heresy largely pervading the church and making rapid headway' at that very time, but it specifies 'the appointment of singers as a distinct class of officers in the church' with 'the consequent introduction of profane music'; and why should not instrumental music have been introduced if the carnal wishes of the people called for it" (Kurfees, M. C., Instrumental Music in Worship, p. 123)

"They were taught the doctrines concerning God, creation, providence, sacred history, the fall, the incarnation, the resurrection, and future rewards and punishments. Their books were portions of the Bible...

When the ecclesiastical spirit overcame the apostolic and Gospel teaching,
the study of the Bible was
largely displaced by ritual ceremonies and priestly confessionals.

A few faithful continued to teach the Bible, as the Waldenses and the Lollards." (Shaff-Herzog Religious Ency. , Sunday schools, p. 159).


This urge for "play" or drama is the evidence of lostness which can be somewhat relieved by pretending a form of worship to replace the never-realized goals of a few minor gods:

"It is symptomatic of structures that have lost their elasticity, becoming too rigid to accommodate further development,

to intensify the semantics of self-reference as a sort of final act of self-reassurance.

The patterns of self-reference by drama to drama as we see them in The Bacchae of Euripides reflect a crisis in the very genre of tragedy, in the context of drastic changes in Athenian society toward the end of the fifth century; the prospect is one of abrupt confrontation and loss." -- Nagy, Pindar's Homer p. 388


Did you notice that no theologian even at the peak of their incompetency can grassp: "What is a Disciple?" "To whom are we discipled?" "What kind of assembly does a student attend?" "What is their textbook?"


 
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Anonymous
(no login)
130.127.43.117

Re: Quarantine the "Changers" to Save Our Children (by E. Claude Gardner)

October 25 2011, 1:23 PM 

Ken asked "What kind of assembly does a student attend?

I know....
I know....

Church in the wilderness?


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

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Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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