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Re: Debate Is Fruitless, But [Causing] Division Is Fruitful?

October 23 2011, 8:51 PM 

[. . .]

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Oct 24, 2011 3:54 AM

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Proof for Your Viewing

October 23 2011, 5:47 PM 

Ken calling Sonny "Shummy."
Nice Ken.

You are just a juvenile, Ken, in a worn out old body. That name calling proves it. Like the saying goes, if you can't squash the message, then go after the messenger.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Proof for "Proof for Your Viewing"

October 24 2011, 4:35 AM 

Dave, you misquoted Ken. Did you lose your "granny" [reading] glasses? Anyway, try to figure out why I said that.

Speaking of name-calling, yours is really juvenile -- "You sinned" [for defending the truth or the church]; "You're a liar" [for not quoting me the way I wanted to be quoted]; etc.

You were doing quite well with presenting your viewpoints until this juvenile post of yours. So, to get you back on track, I would like for you to comment on one of the points I presented in response to Sonny Elliott. (One point at a time may be the best way for us to handle controversial issues.)

As an elder of a congregation in Clemson, SC, how would you respond to this item:

  • 13. Elders are not faultless, brother. In fact, they're still to seek God's counsel regarding spiritual matters. It is spiritually unwise for elders to spend $50,000 or more annually just on salaries (plus other benefits) of the "Worship Leader" alone: (1) for him to wag his arms through the musical worship period and (2) for him and his minions, the musical group, to REHEARSE "worship" beforehand. Custodial work is necessary manual labor. You "work for food," don't you, brother? Well, maybe not, but hopefully, you see my point. Unless the designated "worship leader" is incapable of laboring and toiling with his hands, his "spiritual" service should be voluntary.

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Re: Proof for "Proof for Your Viewing"

October 24 2011, 9:54 PM 

Brother Cruz,

In answer to #13, again, it all depends. On what? On the details.

If a "worship minister" (or whatever title is designated) is receiving a salary that size only for what they do on Sunday in a worship assembly, then it sounds like too much funds.

However, if that person is also involved in ministry during the week, then what's the beef? I could see a larger congregation finding plenty of uses for a person gifted in music.

1. He could work with the youth in the church hosting devotionals in his home.

2. He could start programs for troubled youth in the community where they come to the building after school one or more days a week and learn how to better sing and develop their voice and heart for God and worship.

3. He could go to nursing homes regularly and sing.

4. He could go to hospitals regularly and sing. I cannot remember precisely when this was but was within the past year, but I was visiting a family at a hospital and noticed on my way to their room after getting off the elevator a youth group singing in the waiting area. They were a very good black group and could be heard through the halls praising God and edifying those families.

5. He could go to prisons regularly to worship with them and encourage them.

6. He could plan worship for Sunday mornings and Sunday evenings.

7. He could plan an option for worship in song on Wednesday evenings for those who would choose this over a Bible class.

8. He could also minister in areas outside of singing, such as helping with benevolence (distributing food boxes, etc.).

9. He could follow-up with visitors from the past Sunday and pray with them and invite them back.

10. He could organize a weekly Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday ladies morning Bible class and devotional.

11. He could organize a weekly Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday senior saints morning Bible class and devotional.

12. He could ???

There might be plenty for him to do during the week in the community using his gifts to glorify Christ!

I know an "Associate Minister" in Missouri who teaches in the prisons every Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday evening, teaches a Wednesday morning ladies Bible class, teaches teen classes on Sunday mornings and Wednesday evenings, and preaches many Sunday evenings and occasional mornings, and is a very good teacher and godly man. I ALSO HAVE OBSERVED SALARIED MINISTERS WHETHER PREACHING, ASSOCIATE, YOUTH, ETC. WHO DID NOT SEEM TO DO VERY MUCH. It all depends on the situation brother.

IF, you have gone to the minister about it, and not received a satisfactory answer, and gone to the elders and not received a satisfactory answer, then you have 2 options. One, live with it and continue worshiping at the given congregation, or go somewhere you can worship in peace.

It seems as though you have not been at peace with Madison for over a decade. As I stated to you over a year ago, I pray that you find peace. Sincerely.


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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

#13. Elders Are Not Faultless; "I Wag Arms for Food"

October 25 2011, 2:13 AM 

Brother Elliott:

At the outset, let's clarify the role of the Office of "Worship Leader." Such clarification is very important to consider because such a concept did not originate from the Holy Scripture. We can make that distinction ("Worship Leader") from other offices or roles that Christ gave to the church through its ages: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (or elders)--Eph. 4:11.

We've already mentioned the origin of this office, confined to the Charismatic Movement initially; but it is now common among a wide range of denominational churches. Now, even certain congregations of the church of Christ have acquired or imitated this unscriptural role or office of a church leader, the "Worship Leader," to lead or direct the congregants or God's followers into His HOLY presence. For a congregation of the church of Christ to minimize that role to plain "leading singing" [and that's all] is deception at its highest.

The truth is that it is another one of those gimmicks or schemes by the Change Agents to subvert the church the Lord established in order to conform to denominational or secular standards. The change agents are so subtle and slick:

  1. "Let's call him/her the "Worship Leader'--he controls it all [including the time when the sermonette will be delivered] as he is the executive producer and the executive director of the entire 'worship programming' made for TV."

  2. "Oh, we have another name for our choir--it's the 'Praise Team'--that sounds non-denominational and less controversial, it will be accepted with little or no resistance."

  3. "Oh, we are still for baptism; we do not oppose baptism by immersion--EXCEPT that let's NOT stress the truth that it is a burial and resurrection with Christ so that past sins are remitted in His blood and so that the converted individual begins newness of life. We just have to accept the Baptist's baptism that an individual who has faith/believed automatically becomes a Chrisian; then, he is baptized later."

  4. OK ... the above are just a few samples of the "Acts of the Change Agents" [this is different from the 'Acts of the Apostles."]
So, what's the beef? It all goes back to the role of "leading or directing God's followers into His HOLY presence." By the way, being "gifted in music" is a natural gift--NOT a spiritual gift--not any more spiritual than having a naturally muscular body build.

I need to make a comment about your item number 6: I've already referred to the "worship programming" made for TV with its executive director/producer being the holder of that office. The assembly of the saints has lost its main purpose in this situation, i.e., to commemorate the Lord's suffering and death and to let the word of Christ indwell the Christian RICHLY by teaching and admonition. While order is desirable, spontaneity cannot be equated with "programmed" worship.

All the other items a regular Christian or follower of God can do in service for the Master, wouldn't you think? They're what the Scripture refers to as "good works" in addition to "faith." Should a regular Christian or God's servant, then, not be financially compensated for serving his Master if the "Worship Leader" were for the same spiritual services?

Frankly, brother Elliott, your last statements have no effect on me whatsoever. I'm at peace with myself and my God. I'm glad for the service I have for the Lord by letting it be known that there are those operating in the brotherhood--the Change Agents--who are finding fault with and are critical of the church, the body of Christ, and by letting the world know that the bride of Christ is not good enough to be His because of what they perceive as its imperfections and it, therefore, is badly in need of transformation, restructuring, modification.

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Juvenile is asa Juvenile Does

October 25 2011, 10:45 PM 

Donnie said "...2) for him and his minions, the musical group, to REHEARSE "worship" beforehand."

Yep, you got it Donnie now. Calling your brothers and sisters "minions.

You are now in the same class and boat as Ken....juvenile.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Calling Names: "Juvenile" ... Sinner ... Liar

October 26 2011, 12:27 AM 


You call people names: "juvenile" ... "sinner" ... "liar" ... etc. I said that your name-calling (NOT YOU as a person) is what's really juvenile. That's the difference.

I probably should have referred to them as "co-worship leaders." Or, I should have referred to him as their "minion." What's so bad about that? Now, would you be terribly upset if I referred to you as a follower or disciple of the "change agents"? [I've already done it before, though.] Would that be name-calling?

Well, I notice that you keep evading the issue. Instead, you resort to discussing the price of eggs in China.

Perhaps this will challenge you: I think I have initiated a thread titled, "Contemporary Worship Choreography -- Made for TV or 'the Audience of One'"? To this thread, an author sent me an e-mail in response -- Dan Lucarini. Dan has written a book titled or subtitled: "Confessions of a Former Worship Leader" or "Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement."

Dan said, "Hey Donnie, I see you are still stirring up the 'worship' hornet nest! So am I. As a former worship leader, I knew exactly what the order of service you printed means. I chuckled at the 'VCC' (verse-chorus-repeat chorus). At the same time, seeing it again made me realize afresh how trite and manipulative is the entire exercise of 'planning worship.'"

You can read this at this source: WHAT HAPPENED AT MADISON THIS WEEK -- The Timeline (Part XII)

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Who Changed What and When

October 26 2011, 12:22 AM 

Donnie said "...because of what they perceive as its imperfections and it, therefore, is badly in need of transformation, restructuring, modification."

So the church that YOU like and PREFER is the same as that of the first century church? Nothing, not one thing has changed?

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Donnie Cruz
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David, Where Have You Been?

October 26 2011, 12:47 AM 


It appears that the more you read here about the "change agents," the more knowledgeable and informed and familiar you become with their schemes and activities. That's encouraging.

As far as matching what the New Testament teaches, the church of our Lord today teaches what the first century church believed and taught.

Unless we warn congregations and individual Christians in the brotherhood that the change agents are still {I think so) alive and kicking, they will continue criticizing the church for what it truly stands so as to make it appear that the church of Christ is no less denominational than the other religious groups. "We now have what we used to not -- instrumental music; we now have a choir -- join our denomination." Wow!!!

We're never talking about pews and carpets and kitchen sinks in the church building. Please read: "Quarantine the 'Changers' to Save Our Children" (by E. Claude Gardner). You will find at least 25 changes that the change agents have proposed for quite some time now.

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Re: Will not giving food and drink cause you to be cast alive into the lake of fire?

October 26 2011, 1:00 AM 

The church of today DOES teach what the first century church did 2000 years ago. NOW, you are getting it Donnie. Whether that church has a praise team or a capella congregational singing with four part harmony, a single song leader or a worship leader, or even an orchestra to accompany the has nothing to do with hindering the teaching and saving of the lost. Donnie, WHY.....did it take so long for you to admit that?

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Donnie Cruz
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Despite the Change Agents, the New Testament Church Lives

October 26 2011, 2:00 AM 


You are partially factual. Only the first part of your assertion is factual -- that "the church of today DOES teach what the first century church did 2000 years ago." That's because virtually all churches of Christ comprise that body of believers.

The New Testament church that the Bible speaks about did not/does not indulge in mechanical music to "worship" and entertain God, did/does not have a choir, has never been given by Christ its founder the office of "Worship Leader" -- of course, through time, He gave apostles, prophets, evangelists and elders (like you--supposedly).

Your own congregation for whom you serve as an elder seems like a conservative church to me. But as an elder, you would rather have those extraneous, unnecessary, divisive activities and tendencies practiced in your own congregation. It may be time for you to let your congregation and fellow elders know that you are here arguing for the change agents and their cause.

The few congregations transformed by the change agents operating in the brotherhood have either become associated with the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church denomination or acquired by the Community Church. But that's the path they have chosen.

I'll take my word back from earlier. You have yet to learn a lot about the change agents that you are following, as well as about the Community Church Movement.

The more you speak, the more progressive/liberal you sound -- anything goes with you, Dave, and there's no stopping or limit as to how innovative you are with the truth ... so, it's all authorized by God, right, Dave?

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Joe Spivy
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Churches to Disciples of Christ

November 3 2011, 11:53 AM 

In a recent post you mentioned:

The few congregations transformed by the change agents operating in the brotherhood have either become associated with the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church denomination or acquired by the Community Church. But that's the path they have chosen.

In our part of the country we have not witnessed any churches make such transitions or choosing such a path. However, we also do not have any "mega" churches. Would you, or someone else, be able to mention one or two of the churches that have become associated with the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church denomination? The Disciples have a long history here but appear to be weak and in decline. My thanks to anyone who is able to provide this information.

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Let Them Know

October 26 2011, 2:20 AM 

Donnie, you said "It may be time for you to let your congregation and fellow elders know that you are here arguing for the change agents and their cause."

Why don't you let them know. Since you don't believe that they already know that I believe in the tell them.

The fact of the matter are just like the Pharisees of old. You want your man-made traditions. You believe that you were the one who started it all. If everyone doesn't sit there, as you do, sedately, singing your four part harmony as your song leader pops that 4/4 time....then it is wrong. The wrong is in you! Your heart isn't into being a follower of Christ Donnie. Tell you something else you might disagree with Donnie. Being a follower of Christ is good, and noble, and joyful. I hope people don't find Christianity from folks like you and Ken. They just will not like it.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Let Them Know

October 26 2011, 2:49 AM 


I would just urge you to read the "Quarantine" thread. In fact, that list of church modifications is not exhaustive. You keep bringing up the same story about harmony and pitch pipe and microphone. Open your eyes, Dave. The change agents are busily changing so many teachings of Christ and the apostles. Instrumental music and the choir are only their way of pleasing man, culture and society, just to be accommodating--a mere introduction to the real changes. It's all a slow, gradual methodology and process for them to transform the church of Christ into a denominational body. They're changing the doctrine concerning baptism, teaching faith only in Christian living, etc.

I cannot believe that you are that incapable of seeing what they are doing to the church you claim to be a member of. And now, here you are, you just keep attacking my faith personally, when all I'm doing is simply pointing out to the uninformed what's really going on.

If you don't care, then, maybe, you are not concerned as to whether or not the church is just "another denomination." Is that what you think? Be truthful about this.

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You Made Your Own Bed

October 26 2011, 9:28 AM 

Donnie, you said "And now, here you are, you just keep attacking my faith personally, when all I'm doing is simply pointing out to the uninformed what's really going on."

Donnie, don't expect anyone to feel sorry for you about this. All I have done is simply point that you believing to be informed, aren't really informed, or if you are informed, then you are informed about the wrong thing. Donnie, you have done exactly what you are saying others have done to have attacked brothers and sisters because you believe they are are a part of holy entertainment because they are on a praise team. You called them "minions" Donnie. You judge them because they don't worship like your PREFER.

Donnie, I don't expect any better response today than yesterday, or the year before. After a have just have to give up and leave people to their own wickedness.

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Donnie Cruz
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Only you and your cohorts say that (the above)

October 26 2011, 9:07 PM 


You should know by now that I am very thick-skinned. You don't bother me.

You can attack me as a person all you want [which you've done constantly], rather than simply disagree with me, but that won't change the despicable way that an elder like you responds to an issue being debated. That's why I am making it known now that you are an elder of your congregation -- words as in: "You are a sinner" or "You are a liar [for disagreeing]" and other "words of wisdom" [ha-ha] coming from your mouth [actually from your heart and mind] speak of you, Dave.

Just know, Dave, there is a difference between: (a) attacking the person [that's what you do] and (b) disagreeing with him.

Overall, (1) either you are uninformed/misinformed/ill-informed about the change agents just waiting whom they may devour, (2) or you refuse to accept the facts about their acts of diversion, perversion and division.

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Say What?

October 27 2011, 2:44 PM 

Take account for yourself Donnie. Why would you slander and attack people from a praise team by calling them "minions?
Do you consider "Minion" a derogatory term? It is not only derogatory, but pathetic of you to believe that you are of any respect to tell call someone else down for their behavior. You cannot, for you don't have that kind of respect. You are a sinful and wicked person and this site proves it.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)


October 27 2011, 3:25 PM 

A minion (cannon), a type of cannon with a small bore during the 16th and 17th centuries

Minyan, a quorum of Jewish men needed for certain religious purposes

Babylonian Talmud
The Babylonian Talmud (Megillah 23b) derives the requirement of a minyan of ten for Kiddush Hashem[3] and Devarim she-Bikdusha, "matters of sanctity", by combining three scriptural verses using the rule of gezerah shavah:
The word "midst" in the verse:
"And I shall be sanctified in the midst of the children of Israel" (Leviticus 22:32)
also appears in the verse:
"Separate yourselves from the midst of the congregation" (Numbers 16:21)

In Revelation--for readers--the swarm of locusts are identified as Apollyon's muses (Reve 18)) or worship team. They were known to be dirty adulterers and John called them Sorcerers and said that they will (have) be Cast Alive into the Lake of Fire.

Worship teams separate themselves from the congregation, think that they are holy and dedicated to God: problem is that those "dedicated to religious services" to adorn them were called ANATHEMA: they could not be redeemed and MUST be burned.

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Old Doesn't Always MEan Knowledgeable

October 27 2011, 10:34 PM 

You KNEW what MINION that Donnie was talking about. So do your dance....your day is coming.
Jewish Quorum......

Yea have a good time with it, ok?

There are those that can't see for being so blind.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Old Doesn't Always MEan Knowledgeable

October 27 2011, 11:12 PM 

John in Revelation 18 says that the singers, instrument players and religious teknokrats (craftsmen) were SORCERERS.

He said that they were the"minions" of the Babylon Mother of Harlots (Rev 17). The Muses were also the minions or worship team number of Apollo who is Abaddon or Apollyon. Why would people working so hard making music to keep the "lambs" totally ignorant of all of the OBSTACLE COURSES?

He also called them "lusted after fruits." These are the same baskets of summer "fruits" Amos warned about.

In Amos this was the SIGN that God had been there and would not pass by again.
In Revelation 18 the worship team is called "sorcerers." John said that sorcerers are those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: that's why the musical discorders love to deny hell.

Now, I may not understand that, but the Bible puts TRAPS from Genesis to Revelation which you have to step on without springing them to justify the use of INSTRUMENTS.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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