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Donnie Cruz
(no login)
99.177.249.211

Musical Worship (Praise) Teams

October 28 2011, 3:43 AM 

Dave,

You get so easily distracted. I simply described a "team" and its members in the church as "minions." And it had you so riled up that the discussion has gone a different direction. Did you look up the meaning of the word? What about "minion" being defined as a servile (submissive) dependent, follower, underling or subordinate? You see, the man-designated "Worship Leader" is the boss of everyone involved in the "worship" programming and production made-for-TV. (This will take a lot of explanation, but time is limited; besides it would require an open mind to see what's happening in the worship culture.)

So, now, because the expression "minions" seems to have our attention driven away from the discussion of the real issue, Dave is now convinced how perspicacious he is for making sagacious remarks like that. Well, Dave, you are far from that. [Now, you're riled up again because I used those words.]

"Give us a Worship Leader" sounds like a prayer. When that happens the Office of Worship Leader becomes dictatorial. One of the signs of the Church Growth Movement or the Community Church Movement is the presence of a "Worship Leader." In denominational circles, you should read numerous advertisements about the sought-after worship leaders. That man [or woman] is in control of all the facets of the entire "worship" programming, not just the "song service."

I have a reading assignment for you, if you're willing to gain knowledge of the wolves in sheep's clothing. I think you're about had. You see, part of the plot or scheme of the change agents [I think it's the 2nd] is "TAKING CONTROL OF THE ELDERSHIP." So, be very vigilant if you haven't arrived there yet. Otherwise, you're already a srong follower of theirs.

In the latter stages of the scheme is the designation of the "Worship Leader." Close to that is the selection of the elite group of musicians (singers at first) -- calling the group "Praise Team" because it doesn't sound so controversial as calling the group "The Church of Christ Choir."

Oh, well, just PRIOR to the completion of the "secret conversion (or transformation) of the 'Church of Christ'" to Community Church-ism is ... Voila!!! ... instrumental music. I know your heart is already there.

Well, if you're interested, I'll provide you this link to the "Secret Conversion" of a congregation:

http://www.concernedmembers.com/editorials/secretconversion.htm#part7

 
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Dave
(no login)
64.234.85.24

The Word

November 2 2011, 10:04 PM 

Minion was used, by you, as being slanderous and derogatory in nature.
Nothing more....

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

God's [?] "Praise Team" or the Congregation

November 3 2011, 12:13 AM 

What an insult!!! That man has designated a group of elite musicians (singers) as God's "PRAISE" team.

What about God's congregation? Hmmm! Nope, not good enough to be members of that team? The members of the congregation are not part of the team? That's correct, according to the Worship Leader's musical standards. Otherwise, a 1500-member congregation should EACH have his/her own MICROPHONE -- you know, just like the choir members do.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

God's [?] "Praise Team" or the Congregation

November 3 2011, 12:29 AM 

What an insult!!! That man has designated a group of elite musicians (singers) as God's "PRAISE" team.

What about God's congregation? Hmmm! Nope, not good enough to be members of that team? The members of the congregation are not part of the team? That's correct, according to the Worship Leader's musical standards. Otherwise, a 1500-member congregation should EACH have his/her own MICROPHONE -- you know, just like the choir members do.

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Re: God's [?] "Praise Team" or the Congregation

November 3 2011, 12:06 PM 

Keep majoring in the minors Donnie. You are good at that! One microphone does not bother you but 2 or more do. happy.gif You are a small-minded person.

Fred Whaley

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Majoring in Minors

November 3 2011, 9:37 PM 

Fred,

Maybe. A small-minded person who clearly sees the destructive ways of the change agents -- damaging and dividing the church of Christ ... WITHOUT His permission. These change agents methodically follow their game plan of gradualism, progression and subtlety.

Here's the game plan by the change agents to conquer with the least resistance and eventually acquire a congregation of the church of Christ -- employ a "Worship Leader"; train an elite group of musicians (singers) as the "Praise Team"; and go from there. Mission accomplished -- when the congregation has accepted and begun mechanical music in the assembly.

Yes, the change agents have mastered their scheme -- start out with MINOR matters.

The is nothing "minor" about the 1500-member congregants holding and using [or performing with] an individual microphone each. By the way, that was for illustration purposes to test the depth of your thinking prowess. Think, Fred, isn't everyone "supposed to be praising"? If the Praise Team members are indeed "praising" with their microphones, why shouldn't the regular members do the same? Illustration.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Churches to Disciples of Christ (Joe Spivy)

November 4 2011, 2:41 AM 

From Joe Spivy's post above, "Churches to Disciples of Christ" (November 3 2011, 11:53 AM):

In a recent post you mentioned:

The few congregations transformed by the change agents operating in the brotherhood have either become associated with the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church denomination or acquired by the Community Church. But that's the path they have chosen.

In our part of the country we have not witnessed any churches make such transitions or choosing such a path. However, we also do not have any "mega" churches. Would you, or someone else, be able to mention one or two of the churches that have become associated with the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church denomination? The Disciples have a long history here but appear to be weak and in decline. My thanks to anyone who is able to provide this information.

Joe,

Thanks for the question. A great question!!!

It will take some time to find sources that indicate certain congregations of the church of Christ that are now associated or affiliated with either the Disciples/Christian Church or the Community Church. But as a quick reference for now, here's one link that can provide an insight to Rick Atchley and the former "Richland Hills Church of Christ" [n.k.a. "The Hills Church of Christ"]. It's an article titled: "RICK ATCHLEYS SPEECH AT THE RESTORATION UNITY FORUM."

http://www.christianity-then-and-now.com/html/review_023.html

While I'm at it, let me provide links to the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches:

http://www.willowcreek.com/ (Click "Membership"; click "Find a WCA Church")
http://www.willowcreek.com/membership/profilesearch.asp
http://www.willowcreek.com/membership/SearchResult.asp?Basic=1&Name=&State=TX&zip=&denom=COC

I just did a generic search [last link above] of "Church of Christ" in Texas that have affiliated themselves with the Willow Creek Association of Community Churches. I found these:

-- Farmers Branch Church of Christ Farmers Branch, TX
-- Glenwood Church Of Christ Tyler, TX
-- Golf Course Road Church of Christ Midland, TX
-- Lake Highlands Church Dallas, TX
-- West Houston Church of Christ Houston, TX

I hope this helps.

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Re: Churches to Disciples of Christ (Joe Spivy)

November 4 2011, 3:36 PM 

Donnie are you suggesting that Jesus has removed the lampstand from these churches or could you tell the rest how much time Jesus will give them to repent before he would remove the lampstand and stop considering them the church? The brethren need to be clear on whether these groups are churches with a lampstand or are no longer churches with lampstands or are churches in the process of losing their lampstand. Please be specific and do not toy with answering by opinion. If you can only provide your opinion then say such. If you do not know if these are churches in the eyes of Jesus Christ then be vewy vewy caweful.

Fred

 
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Dave
(no login)
75.176.33.174

Strain On

November 4 2011, 8:01 PM 

Donnie, the bit about the microphones CONTINUES to make you look petty minded with a double standard. The praise team sometimes employs a microphone just as a single song leader does. If the praise team doesn't need them then neither does your traditional song leader. The microphones has nothing detrimental to do with Praising God. That comes from you because you don't like the songs.....or the clapping....or the lifting of holy hands....or the amens. The song leader and praise team use microphones that so people can hear their parts (bass, tenor, alto, soprano). Four part harmony that the traditionalists love.....know what I mean?
You continue to strain....and strain....and strain.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Dave's Concern About the Microphone(s)

November 7 2011, 4:13 AM 

Dave,

I'll make it very simple for your understanding:

  1. Is the Praise Team a part of the congregation? (YES, NO)
  2. Is the rest of the congregation (aside from the "official" Praise Team) not part of the praise team? (YES, NO)
  3. Is the ENTIRE congregation without the "official" Praise Team not a praise team? (YES, NO)
  4. Was there a problem with congregational singing before the arrival of the "Worship Leader" and his "Praise Team" (YES, NO)
  5. If YES, why were churches of Christ known by the denominational world for their great singing?
  6. If NO, why do the change agents have the need to improve upon that great singing when all that happens now is Praise Team domination and LESS congregational singing?
  7. If everybody is part of the "team singing praises," why do you believe the rest of the congregants that are in the assembly do not need or deserve to proudly hold their personal microphones?
Just a few questions for now.

 
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Dave
(no login)
75.176.33.174

I NEVER....I REPEAT....I NEVER......

November 4 2011, 8:09 PM 

You knew that your choice of words..."minion".....was slanderous.....and you act like Bill Clinton in covering it up.
Good show!

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Confession to Make re: "Minions"

November 7 2011, 3:42 AM 

I got interested in the word "minions" recently when I was listening to a conservative radio talk program. I was hearing expressions such as:
  • Obama is ripping apart the very core values that are uniquely American. ... Six more years is an eternity when considering our countries dire need for a new direction that will actually help Americans, not merely continue to support political cronies and their minions.

  • THE LAST SUCCESS FOR OBAMA AND HIS MINIONS

  • Obama And His Minions Just Simply Do Not Get It! ... Obama, in typical Chicago-thug style politics ignored the OMB and ... Obama minion and DNC Chair, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, recently....

  • OK ... just a few examples....
Oh, I see, Obama and his minions have been slandered by conservative policies.

The point is: I see resemblances in what's going on in the government under the current White House administration with its liberal, progressive agenda of destruction and in what's going on with the change agents with their liberal, progressive agenda and their takeover of targeted congregations of the church of Christ for the Community Church.

Keep the "CHANGE," brother. Keep Bill Clinton as well.

 
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Tom Brite
(no login)
69.91.18.251

Re: Confession to Make re: "Minions"

November 7 2011, 8:33 PM 

Ken and I are probably the only ones here old enough to remember the day back in the late 60's when Madison, then the largest congregation among Churches of Christ, was branded as the most liberal congregation in the brotherhood for giving $1 million on a single Sunday to construct a Family Life Center. (Liberal code for a gym.) I would bet it is still in use by the congregation.

I have been branded a "liberal" by some because I do not find a praise team objectionable. I have been branded a "conservative" because I do not go along with instruments in the worship service. You see brothers, each of us must decide on our own and although we might attempt to convince others that we alone have found truth in all matters, what really matters is that we have searched the scriptures ourselves and have decided with all the evidence in what is right for ourselves. I remember a few years ago visiting a congregation in Panama City, Fl a congregation where the pamphlets branded the "Contending for the Faith" crowd as apostates. It takes all sorts to get around in this world. My final recollection is of the most obnoxious song leader I have ever witnessed in a congregation. It was in a conservative Church of Christ here in San Antonio. It was virtually impossible to concentrate on the words or meaning of the song because of the attempt by the leader to sing over the congregation and make a show of his leading with his arms. So, no one group, I believe, has found all truth here on earth. I believe it will only be found in heaven but what is important to understand, is that we must each be convinced to the best of our abilities that we are in accord to God's word in all that we do.

Why mention Madison? Because what is todays accepted norm for many congregations was once the bastion of liberalism. Donnie, when was the last time you complained about Madison having a Family Life Center? Is it because you find it acceptable for them to have it? Many would still find it unbiblical, in fact, there is no scripture approving of a Family Life Center. Then please, let us that find praise teams acceptable worship as we desire whether it be with many song leaders, one song leader, or (really, my preference) no song leader. Thanks for reading!

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

Re: Confession to Make re: "Minions"

November 8 2011, 3:17 AM 

Tom,

Thanks for your input. Maybe, I was a liberal then. LOL!!!

I must say that the kitchen sink, the church bus, the gym, the Life Center, the carpet and pews, etc., are the least of my worries or issues, if at all.

Oh, well, some people might have fussed about those conveniences, but the impact of those "controversies" just wouldn't compare to the postmodern scheme of the change agents who have literally been critical of the church of Christ and their heritage and have ridiculed and demeaned the church they still claim to belong to. To them, in short, let the church of Christ be uniquely no different from the denominational neighbors.

And the change agents are so subtle and methodical in their approach to transforming the church into a Community-Church-like denomination. The eventual goal is to be culturally conforming to the denominational world. And one way to achieve this is operate mechanical music in the assembly--this is what the "church seekers" want and enjoy. But this is not easy to achieve in congregations of the church of Christ. So, the process would have to be gradual and subtle: introduce the "casual dress" code [reserve the best clothes for social events]; lift "holy" hands just like the Charismatics; do rhythmic handclapping while singing--young people love this; hire a professional "Worship Leader"; select the elite "Praise Team" singers; etc.; etc.

Nothing wrong with them, right? But then, Tom, in the end, and as a result, you would not see [perhaps hardly see] congregations that now operate mechanical music without having gone through or been preceded by these little and seemingly "innocent" activities. It's all about: step 1, step 2, step 3 ... and final step -- instrumental music. And I would not be surprised that the Madison leadership had something like that in their plan to become a Community Church. [ConcernedMembers may have been responsible for holding them back. Hmmm}

So, we're essentially trying to point out the SCHEME. Several threads have been devoted to the activities of the change agents.

Even more important is changing major doctrinal matters -- the purpose and design of baptism, observance of the Lord's Supper, women leading men, etc.

Yes, the change agents cover a lot of ground. (Time is up. sad.gif )

Good to hear from you, Tom.

 
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Dave
(no login)
75.176.33.174

Wrong is RIght.....Bad is Good

November 7 2011, 8:38 PM 

Donnie,
As bad as you seem to want to alter and change the Word I believed you to be a supporter of Clinton.

 
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Dave
(no login)
75.176.33.174

A Sin is Still a Sin

November 8 2011, 6:22 PM 

Donnie said "It's all about: step 1, step 2, step 3 ... and final step -- instrumental music. And I would not be surprised that the Madison leadership had something like that in their plan to become a Community Church. [ConcernedMembers may have been responsible for holding them back. Hmmm} \"

Concerned members has NEVER had any sway with what has gone on over at Madison, nor any other church of Christ.
You continue to gossip maliciously here at concerned members about Madison.
THAT.....is a sin.
Instead of gossiping about the Madison leadership and not being "surprised" at their actions.....why not just go to them personally?
Face to face too tough?


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

A Change Agent Is Still a Change Agent

November 9 2011, 1:38 AM 

Dave,

You are 100% correct -- CM "has NEVER had any sway with what has gone on over at Madison." At least you now see [FINALLY!!!] that something has gone on over at Madison -- you are learning.

You are 100% correct also in that the reverse is true -- the Change Agents have ALWAYS had the sway with what has gone on over at Madison, including the division, as a result, both in leadership and in membership.

You may be correct in that "gossiping" about Madison leadership ought to stop as several elders have come and gone in the span of over a decade.

Here's one scheme that might work for you. Tell your congregation [non-instrumental at this time] that if one elder, David Fields, had his way, he would implement mechanical music ASAP, provided it no longer is unnecessary, controversial and divisive. Is "face to face" too tough for you?

Step-By-Step is the name of the Change Agents' Scheme:

Step 1 -- Get the gullible leadership to be on your side.
Step 2 -- Claim co-ownership of the facility.
Step 3 -- Target the young people, the future of "the church."
Step 4 -- Provide holy entertainment during the "worship service."
Step 5 -- Contemporary Christian Rock Music is flavorful; feed it to them.
Step 6 -- Lift "holy" [not dirty] hands -- the Charismatics do it.
Step 7 -- Do the joyous rhythmic handclapping during the music hour.
Step 8 -- Employ the best professional "Worship Leader" in the state.
Step 9 -- Allow the "Praise Team" (CHOIR) including WOMEN to lead men and all.
Step 10 -- Preach a sermonette about psychology and culture.
Step 11 -- Distribute Bible Study materials written by denom. authors.
Step 11 -- Gradually change the church's beliefs and teachings.
Step 12 -- And so many other things happen between now and then.
Step 13 -- The congregation is now ready for instrumental "worship services." Just do it.
Step 14 -- The church of Christ in the locality is now a full-fledged Community Church
Step 15 -- Change the SOF to: "Mountain View Church."

The step-by-step procedure at work!!!

 
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Dave
(no login)
75.176.33.174

Concerned Members is a Cancer

November 9 2011, 2:13 AM 

Quote by Donnie..." You are 100% correct also in that the reverse is true -- the Change Agents have ALWAYS had the sway with what has gone on over at Madison, including the division, as a result, both in leadership and in membership."
Donnie, I wouldn't be correct if the reverse were true, and I didn't say ther reverse. You did! Donnie CHANGING up the truth again....

Quote by Donnie "You may be correct in that "gossiping" about Madison leadership ought to stop as several elders have come and gone in the span of over a decade."
Again, Donnie, changing what I actually said is just more malicious diatribe and gossip by you. You are the ones slandering your elders that have AUTHORITY over you.

And.....another quote by Donnie "Aanother Here's one scheme that might work for you. Tell your congregation [non-instrumental at this time] that if one elder, David Fields, had his way, he would implement mechanical music ASAP, provided it no longer is unnecessary, controversial and divisive. Is "face to face" too tough for you?"

Tell you what Donnie, why don't you let them know for me? Everyone could use a good laugh on you behalf. And besides Donnie, you know I feel and have told you that I don't want instrumental music in our worship....therefore...you have scored another malicious lie.
Repent Donnie of your ungodly ways.

Where is William Crump when you need him?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.249.211

The Change Agents: Spreading Spiritual AIDS

November 9 2011, 2:48 AM 

Dave,

In developing a product or an application, there is such a thing as "negative" testing to help determine if logic is accurately stated or if logic is erroneous and loopy. That's what I was trying to do with your assertions -- only to find out that when you are being illogical, the other party maliciously lies or his ways are ungodly.

I think you were simply overwhelmed by the very FEW steps I listed.

You "don't want instrumental music" in your worship? What's happened here, Dave? You're the one who constantly speaks of "preferences."

Maybe, it's time for you to stop preaching the "good news" [I wouldn't say "gospel"] of mechanical music in the assembly.

 
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Fred Whaley
(no login)
173.162.22.85

Re: The Change Agents: Spreading Spiritual AIDS

November 9 2011, 12:18 PM 

Dave just remember that in Donnie's mind only he and a few others will be saved. Dave nor Fred nor a host of others are faithful to the New Testament pattern as Donnie believes and sees it. Dave do not let Donnie's judgmental unscriptural and un-Christ-like perspective bother you. The Word of God is your authority and says you are in Christ without condemnation even though he condemns you and most of those "in Christ" throughout the world. The Madision Church of Christ has its lampstand because they are pleasing Jesus even though they are not honoring Donnie's traditions and wishes. This is Donnie's problem. I know I know Donnie will twist all of this on Fred and say it is otherwise.

Fred Whaley

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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