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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: The Change Agents: Spreading Spiritual AIDS

November 9 2011, 7:21 PM 


Be honest. How many traditions has Donnie initiated in the last decade (since I've been involved with this website) or since you (Fred) were born.

If you can name one that I authored, I may stop calling you a liberal and anti-church of Christ. Until then, you are a liberal, a pro-change agent at any cost, a Jeff Walling disciple and anti-church of Christ.

I'm patiently waiting.

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(no login)

From Jesus to Donnie

November 10 2011, 8:11 AM 

Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin because they were saying, He has an unclean spirit.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

That Was from Ray to Donnie -- and Ray Is No Jesus

November 11 2011, 2:15 AM 

Indeed, the spirit OF God or OF Jesus Christ is HOLY (Romans 8:9; Phil. 1:19). How can we know that Jesus Christ's spirit or the Lord's spirit is "holy" (an adjective--not a person's name)? Search the Scripture.

"Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ WHICH was in them did signify, when IT [the Spirit of Christ is not a male gender] testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow" (I Peter 1:11).

True, the spirit or mind of God or Christ cannot be blasphemed. Also, the word of God is not to be blasphemed (Titus 2:5).

Now, why would you go so far as to judge my soul? Judge me against the truth, Ray. "He that judgeth me is the Lord" (I Cor. 4:4).

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(no login)

What is Donnie's Fruit, words, deeds?

November 17 2011, 9:45 AM 

From Hebrews - "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart"

From Jesus through Luke - "A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit? A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brothers eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye, when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brothers eye. For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart"

From Paul to Titus - "They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed"

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Jesus defined Hypocrites: agrees with all Greek literature.

November 17 2011, 10:26 PM 

If you could prove that Donnie was a hypocrite (preacher, singer, player, actor) what part of the Biblical text would that change. Since the command is to teach that which is written for our learning, Paul admitted all of the trash in the marketplace (Rom 14) but not to doubtful disputations meaning anything that came out of their own imagination or religious practice in the Agora.

[linked image]
[linked image]

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Fred Whaley
(no login)

Re: The Change Agents: Spreading Spiritual AIDS

November 10 2011, 8:40 AM 

Fred is actually a disciple of Jesus .......... but if Jesus were not an option Fred would prefer to be a follower of Jeff Walling than a follower of Donnie Cruz.


No, Fred, Jesus is an option. God does not force anyone to be Jesus' follower. Just like redemption in the blood of the Lamb, it is offered to everyone, but man has the option to accept it or reject it.

A disciple of Christ is a learner and follower of His. A disciple follows and obeys His word, and he lets the word of Christ indwell him richly "[16] Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Col. 3:16).

Your problem is that you prefer to be Jeff Walling's disciple first. Contrary to Christ's and the apostles' teachings, as well as of those of the Restoration Movement who preceded you and me and Jeff, Jeff Walling has no regard for the truth revealed in the above passage (Col. 3:16). Jeff's version is: "Let the instruments of music enrich you and provide you with 'holy entertainment' in the Musical Worship Center while you're singing, or even while you're not singing." Now, that certainly is a perversion of the truth on Jeff Walling's part, as well as of other change agents.

I never invite or desire for anyone to be Donnie's follower. You may claim that you are not yet a follower of Jeff. But your posts clearly reveal that you are indeed a follower of Jeff. There's really no point in me asking if you are going to Jeff Walling's Winterfest in the next few months. I know you will fully enjoy the invited professional musical bands and groups (paid or unpaid) to perform their "Contemporary 'Christian' ROCK Music" and blending with the 7-11 singing -- and calling the entire occasion "WORSHIP."

So, Fred, you were unable to cite an instance where Donnie Cruz has ever initiated a man-made tradition. It would have been better if you had said: "Donnie follows traditions--and they happen to be apostolic traditions."

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Nov 11, 2011 12:36 AM

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Fred Whaley
(no login)

Response submitted yesterday morning never posted...trying again

November 11 2011, 10:37 AM 

Fred is actually a disciple of Jesus......but if that were not an option he would be a disciple of Jeff Walling and not a disciple of Donnie Cruz.


Fred, sorry about the late posting of your message. Since it was addressed to me, the usual process, sometimes depending on the nature of the message, is for the moderator at the time to wait until the addressee has read it and determines to post it.

Anyway, I have already responded to this message, as you can see and read above. Thanks for your patience.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Nov 11, 2011 1:58 PM

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Jeff Walling Arch Discorder

November 11 2011, 12:29 PM

Rick Atchley: The era of the progressive Church of Christ is over.

Back in the 80s you could go to any major city, especially in the South, and you could find a progressive Church of Christ and if they would preach grace, and if they would put words on a screen, and if they would let divorced people place membership, they would grow.

The generation of Boomers has enough denominational loyalty that theyre going to find the least legalistic

Well, we discipled the children of those progressive churches
.....for a whole generation to grow past us Boomers.
.....They never heard the sermons we heard.
.....They never heard the rationale for a cappella music.

We sent them to youth rallies and Church of Christ events
.....with some of the finest Christian bands in the world.
.....We discipled our children to leave our Movement!

YES, CHRIST IN THE PROPHETS WARNED US SO ALMOST ALL CONGREGATIONS HAVE REPUDIATED THE NACC hostile takeover working with ONCE Christian colleges. Christ is quoted by Paul to MARK those who prayed and SANG out of their own spirit:

Isaiah 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said,
..... We have made a covenant [cutting, smiting]with death,
.....and with hell are we at agreement;
.....when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, shall not come unto us:
.....for we have made lies [mendacium myths, fable, poetry] our refuge,
.....and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

All "playing" or "plucking" a musical instrument words are derived from and often used to pluck or smite a person. The Levites musically mocked Jesus as He was crucified:

Percutio1. (With the notion of the per predominating.) To strike through and through,
to thrust or pierce through (syn.: percello, transfigo). a vein is opened, blood is let
b. To strike, play a musical instrument (poet.): lyram, Ov. Am. 3, 12, 40; Val. Fl. 5, 100.
1. To smite, strike, visit with calamity of any kind (class.): percussus calamitate, Cic. Mur. 24, 49: percussus fortunae vulnere, id. Ac. 1, 3, 11: ruina, Vulg. Zach. 14, 18: anathemate. id. Mal. 4, 6: plaga, id. 1 Macc. 1, 32: in stuporem, id. Zach. 12, 4.
2. To strike, shock, make an impression upon, affect deeply, move, astound (class.): percussisti me de oratione prolat,

Jesus quoted Christ to mark Scribes and Phariseesas hypocrites NAMING entertaining preachers,singers, instrument players and ACTORS.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

The Subject: How do churches STARVE children to death:

November 9 2011, 9:35 PM 

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them,
....Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it
....unto one of the least of these my brethren, have done it unto me.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
....Depart from me, ye cursed,
....into everlasting fire,
....prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred,
....and ye gave me no meat:
....I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

Because in Amos, the people had David's musical performance
IN the temple Christ prophesied that their songs in the temple would be
turned into howlings.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD,
....that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread,
....nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east,
....they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Christ in Isaiah had the same warning about those who used musical instruments in their religious festivals:

Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine,
....are in their feasts: [religious festivals]
....but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.

Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity,
....because they have no knowledge:
....and their honourable men are famished,
....and their multitude dried up with thirst.

Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,
....and opened her mouth without measure:
....and their glory, and their multitude,
....and their pomp [music], and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm (maggots) is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. Isa 14:11

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isa 14:12

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Isa 14:13

The verb rendered tinkling, alalazo, originally meant to repeat the cry alala, as in battle. It is used by Mark (6:38) of the wailings of hired mourners. Hence, generally, to ring or clang. Rev., clanging cymbal, is derived from (the Greek) a hollow or cup. The cymbal consisted of two half-gloves of metal which was struck together." (Vincent, p. 263)

the mean [hypocrite: rhetorician, singer, instrumentalists re Jesus] man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled: Isa 5:15

Therefore as the FIRE devoureth the stubble, and the FLAME consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. Is.5:24

Despised is blasphemaverunt the Word is defacto PROVEN by sermonizing and musical instruments to silence the lambs

This cannot be jabbered away: Donnie isn't changing the Bible text: Instruments in the Holy Place imposed the death sentence: spiritual death comes while people are still alive. I feel for the sowers of discord but they cannot be reached.

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(no login)

From the Sidelines

November 9 2011, 9:56 PM 

Dave, you should know that, even though Dr. Crump has retired from Concerned Members, he really gets a kick out of watching Donnie's futile CATfights with you, Racnor, Fred, Sonny, and others of similar mindset. You've called this site a cancer; Dr. Crump now sees it as a circus with Donnie and Ken as the two remaining conservative gladiators (on this site) bravely fighting the big CATS, the change-agent lions (on this site). Anyway, this is theater at its best.


Dr. Crump,

It's OK to address yourself in the first person, brother. It's also OK that you NOW see this site as a "circus" or "theater at its best."

I see that your professional writing style has not changed. I think that is good. But "where's the beef"?

I realize that you directed your post to Dave. You know ... you can find his e-mail address at his church's website

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Nov 11, 2011 2:34 AM

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(no login)

Re: From the Sidelines

November 11 2011, 12:48 PM 

Perhaps, Anonymous enjoys the "show" here from a distance. [linked image] Amend your ways and I believe Donnie will welcome your participation.

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(no login)

Re: From the Sidelines

November 12 2011, 8:38 AM 

Racnor, Anonymous does indeed enjoy the "show" here from a distance. He chooses to participate no longer, however, because the moderators have allowed this board to degenerate into a sideshow of futile catfights.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

It Is Still About the Change Agents

November 12 2011, 11:19 AM 

On one hand, "catfights" related to the discussion of doctrines, beliefs, teachings and practices will continue without one personally damning another ["You are a/the sinner...."]. Such type of civilly discussing religious issues is the nature of the beast -- this is a religious forum, remember?

On the other hand, the sideshow of other "catfights" that are "futile" (as somewhat exemplified above) will no longer be tolerated. That "sideshow of futile catfights" [and we're knowledgeable of the participants] had gone on way too long.

But, no, this board has not degenerated into a "sideshow of futile catfights." There's plenty of valuable information about the change agents, the wolves in sheep's clothing, that needs to be disseminated; "the half has never yet been told."

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(no login)

Re: From the Sidelines

November 12 2011, 12:25 PM 

Furthermore, Racnor, many [...]


The deleted post was a continuation [a perfect example] of the "futile ... catfights" that will no longer be tolerated and must stop. It had no redeeming value.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Nov 12, 2011 2:23 PM

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(no login)

Re: From the Sidelines

November 12 2011, 5:58 PM 

If Donnie wants to be consistent...and honest...he will no longer post ANY catfights from ANYONE. Let's not have a double standard here, son. That means no more lengthy tit-for-tat exchanges between Donnie and Dave, Racnor, Sonny, and others.


Bill, you are still Dr. Crump, not "Anonymous." There's no reason for you to be "Dr. HIDE" now.

There has not been a catfight between Racnor and me. Yes, I've had heated discussions between me and others, but it's all related to doctrines, beliefs, practices and teachings.

You "took the bait."

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Nov 12, 2011 7:30 PM

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(no login)

The Point of No Return?

November 13 2011, 12:29 PM 

[linked image]

Anonymous , I will leave you these thoughts.

You have brains in your head.
You have feet in your shoes.
You can steer yourself
any direction you choose.
You're on your own.
And you know what you know.
And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go....

Dr. Seuss, Oh! The Places You'll Go!

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Jeff Walling Arch Discorder

November 11 2011, 2:56 PM 


Thanks for the following link:

"Theater - Music in Religion: Jeff Walling, George Whitefield."

I would encourage readers to access and read the article in its entirety. The following selections are quoted from your source:
Jeff Walling and George Whitefield knew that by using the artifices of mimesis and comedy they pointed out and defused their opponents' anxieties about music, theater, and sexuality, creating a space for players in the cultural mainstream."
. . .
The Britannica notes that: The art of the theatre is essentially one of make-believe, or mimesis. Drama also requires plausibility, but in drama it must be conveyed not by a narrator but by the actors' ability to make the audience "believe in" their speech, movement, thoughts, and feelings.
. . .
One dramatist noted that: "We love drama because we know that it isn't true."

"For instance, when you attend a musical concert it is not the actual performance which you admire; it is the preprogrammed expectations you hold. If you attend an event understanding that it is just "let's pretend" then it is innocent. However, if you attend expecting some heady truth to be revealed you will, as in all religious spectacle, momentarily lose your mind or "go out of yourself." In some events it seems clear that a programmed event can be so mind altering that you will never be able to recover.
. . .
"Jeff Walling earned his Bachelor's degree from the University of California at Irvine in speech and communications with an emphasis in theatre." It comes as no surprise, therefore, the theatrical training and the preconditioning or expectations of a great performance contributes to success. Perhaps all preaching in the non-Biblical or established sense is based upon theatrical ability because the dullest person in the congregation could read the Word which is how Thomas Campbell defined the teaching process.
. . .

Here's a brief summary of Jeff Walling's background -- this time from the church's website: (Providence, NC).
Jeff earned his Bachelor's degree from the University of California at Irvine in speech and communications. His graduate work in religion was at Pepperdine University in Malibu.

Jeff lives in Charlotte, North Carolina with his wife, Cathryn. They have three sons.

He served churches in the southern California area for 20 years, first as a youth minister and then pulpit minister, preaching for the Mission Viejo Church of Christ for 13 years. Jeff became the senior minister for Providence Road in 1997.
The question is -- after 13 years at Providence, how much more time does Walling need to convert to the way of one of the strongest instrumental music proponents in the church of Christ? The congregation now has the Praise Team [CHOIR] and is ripe unto "harvest" [acquisition]. It is our hope that under the church's wise leadership, it will not succumb to the change agents.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

The ORIGINAL intention

November 11 2011, 3:53 PM 

Criminals cannot keep their mouth shut: we noted that Rick Atchley confessed that events (such as Winterfest) had the intention of causing the youth to "leave our movement." Jeff Walling was one of the first to suggest that the youth ministers might consider leaving "our movement" if they could not cause the Changes ACU prepared people to execute.

That's what we said: they said we were liars.

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(no login)

The Truth Doesn't Change

November 11 2011, 8:35 PM 

Donnie said "If you can name one that I authored, I may stop calling you a liberal and anti-church of Christ. Until then, you are a liberal, a pro-change agent at any cost, a Jeff Walling disciple and anti-church of Christ."

You may not have authored, but you have consented to and taken MANY hand-me down traditions. We have named many such traditions and changes that you take part in, but you deny that they are traditions.

Four part harmony......NOT part of the first century church.
Multiple cup Lord's Supper......NOT part of the first century church.
PA system.......NOT part of the first century church.
Church building......first century church met in homes.
Song Books.....first century church had all of their songs memorized in their hearts.
Suit and Ties.......Jesus dressing up? He didn't need fine clothes here on earth. Men of your mindset, Donnie, believe that Jesus looks at man from the outside, instead of the heart.

All of these are traditions that were started by men who PREFERRED to worship God in a different way other than the 1st Century church.

The Truth hurts only those who will not accept it.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

How Ignorant: Those Are Not Traditions (That Oppose the Doctrine of Christ)

November 12 2011, 1:17 AM 


Your list is so incomplete: you did not include the church pews, carpet, air conditioning, toilets, baptistery, church bus, kitchen sink, etc., etc., etc.

Even if you add the ones you mentioned: song books, suit and ties, church building, 4-part harmony, loud speaker system, multiple cups -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- all of these have nothing to do with perverting the doctrine of Christ.

Besides, these objects can NOT be and are NOT traditions, NOT even man-made traditions. They are objects. They are NOT concepts. They are NOT precepts. They are NOT principles. They are NOT thoughts. They are NOT teachings. They are NOT commandments. They are NOT directives. What else can we do, Dave, to keep you from asserting a less than a third-grade level argument?

But, of course, the change agents will tell you otherwise.

If you need me to explain in detail as to why I am so certain that what we have here is a list of physical objects that have nothing to do with the doctrine of Christ and His apostles, just let me know. I'll be glad to explain.

The difference between the "Change Agents" in the church of Christ and the Roman Catholics is that:

(a) The "Change Agents," considering their supposedly high level academic backgrounds, are being illogical in thinking and believing that physical objects (song books, loud speaker systems, air conditioning unit, etc.) are man-made traditions. They also insist that NOT USING mechanical devices in the assembly is a man-made tradition.

(b) The Roman Catholics, on the other hand, although in error, are more logical than the "change agents." The Roman Catholics are more readily willing to accept and admit that they DO HAVE TRADITIONS. In fact, they will tell you without any hesitation that their papal and church traditions have as much to do with teachings from the Bible, if not more.

Dave, in case you missed reading and understanding this post from another thread, here's the gist just for you to consider. I am listing a number of "traditions" of the Roman Catholic Church:

  1. Offer of prayers for the dead
  2. Use of wax Candles for their rituals
  3. Veneration of angels and dead saints
  4. Worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, "Mother of God"
  5. Priests began to dress differently from the laity
  6. Extreme Unction
  7. Doctrine of Purgatory, first established by Gregory the Great
  8. Prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints
  9. Papacy: of pagan origin; the title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the wicked emperor Phocas
  10. Kissing of the Pope's feet
  11. Worship of the cross, images and relics
  12. Baptism of bells, instituted by Pope John XIV
  13. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV
  14. Fasting on Fridays and during Lent
  15. Celibacy of the priesthood: decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII
  16. Rosary, or prayer beads introduced by Peter the Hermit
  17. ... etc. ... etc. ... etc.
Obviously, the above activities and practices are traditions of the Roman Catholic Church. And its members are willing to defend their traditions, although many of them are actually heresies and are of pagan nature.

Compare the above list of the RCC traditions and the list of objects (A/C, song books, speaker systems, etc.) that the Change Agents consider as man-made traditions in the church of Christ. It is absolutely embarrassing.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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